Shooting at Dallas Union Station, Texas Eagle involved

[Trainmans daughter]

- wounded in the melee.

Dang! That's gotta hurt.

 

[daveyb99]

Wonder if Amtrak's "top cop" John O'Connor, Amtrak VP/Chief of Police, in Dallas for a meeting, may raise some hell with locals boarding his train and creating what turned out to be quite a cluster and safety hazard.

THAT would be an interesting phone call. I can just see every PD telling someone with a problem to "call the AMTRAK PD ... they might be here in a few days".

In all my travels in Texas, I have only ever seen AMTRAK PD once, and that was at a traffic accident on I-35 in Belton, TX.

 

[daveyb99]

Since the "crime scene was contained in the one coach, I do not understand why the rest of the train was not separated, in front and behind, reassembnled on an adjacent track and sent on its way.

What if the Conductor was a witness - can not leave.

How about other onboard staff - can not leave.

How about AMTRAK policy - maybe it says can not do that.

Not always that simple.

 

[daveyb99]

I saw a clip on the internet of the Dallas police chief who continues to state that his officers did the right thing in having the confrontation on the train instead of the station. It is mind boggling to me that he thinks that was the right call!

I agree with the Chief. Get the suspect into a confined area with fewer people. I have no idea how many people were in the "lobby" or waiting room of the station or wandering around the area ... but I would have done the same.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I agree with the Chief. Get the suspect into a confined area with fewer people. I have no idea how many people were in the "lobby" or waiting room of the station or wandering around the area ... but I would have done the same.

Well, considering the absolute disaster that resulted can you explain to the rest of us why you support the actions taken? It seems to me that they could have confronted the suspect after he left the lobby but before he had entered the train. Or, if that wasn't possible and they needed to confront him on the train perhaps they have could kept a low profile and slowly removed people from the car in question before confronting him? Perhaps it will come out that they did everything right, but based on the information released so far the explanation for their actions seems anything but self-evident.

 

[jis]

I still don't understand why they felt a train full of innocent bystanders was a great place to confront this man.

Agreed!

And I'm still trying to rationalize how the police chief thought it was better to have the potential for shooting in the close quarters of a rail car where exits & shelter is very limited, as opposed to the train station where people can run out a multitude of doors or hide behind walls and such.

If indeed the initial reports are true, that the suspect never fired his gun, then the fact that one officer shot another would seem to indicate that it wasn't a good idea to do this in the close confines of the railcar.

Yep. Maybe it is stating the obvious, but it sure seems like one, or several, 'officials' really screwed up, and in hindsight, made some pretty bad choices. A sad part of this story is that if someone had not been killed, there likely would be no questioning of the actions, even though, as Alan says, you really have to wonder why anyone would think a railcar filled with passengers would be a good place to confront the suspect.

This may have happened this way because of the relative inexperience of the officers involved when dealing with railcars. It is quite likely that they may not have any specific training to handle such situations within railcars full of passengers and thought incorrectly that since a confined space like a small room is better than large lobby, ergo a small passenger car is better..... etc.

The other, admittedly very remote, possibility is that they were pulling a, what in India is euphemistically called "an encounter", and I will leave it at that. You can look it up or pm me for further explanation.

 

[amamba]

Jis, that encounter stuff is interesting. I googled it as I had never heard of it. Thank you for sharing that perspective.

 

[Ryan]

I agree that it isn't self-evident that the train was the best place. But in don't think that there is enought information to say that it was the wrong move too.

Hindsight is a great thing, but I look forward to learning what the officers believed and then making a decision.

 

[George Harris]

I agree with the Chief. Get the suspect into a confined area with fewer people. I have no idea how many people were in the "lobby" or waiting room of the station or wandering around the area ... but I would have done the same.

Well, considering the absolute disaster that resulted can you explain to the rest of us why you support the actions taken? It seems to me that they could have confronted the suspect after he left the lobby but before he had entered the train. Or, if that wasn't possible and they needed to confront him on the train perhaps they have could kept a low profile and slowly removed people from the car in question before confronting him? Perhaps it will come out that they did everything right, but based on the information released so far the explanation for their actions seems anything but self-evident.

The first rule of shooting is to know what is behind whatever you are shooting at. If in the station or outside, there is a lot more space to consider. Hence, the railcar where the flying projectiles are contained in a small space. And, it is not just the police bullets straying that have to be considered. There is alos the consideration of the guy shooting that really does not care where his bullets go if he misses his target. These reasons say go for the smallest space you can get that has good strong solid walls. On these basises, the coach would appear to be the best choice.

No one has yet said how full the coach was. Maybe they knew, maybe they did not and were surprised by how many people were in the car, but by that time they were commmited. Remember the "nobody rides trains" thought that seems to be floating around.

Well, maybe what I said as the first rule is not. The best first rule is to always treat any gun like it is loaded until proven otherwise.

 

[Gingee]

Is this a bad area? We are going into Dallas on Amtrak in a couple weeks. Staying very close to station.

 

[NAVYBLUE]

I agree with the Chief. Get the suspect into a confined area with fewer people. I have no idea how many people were in the "lobby" or waiting room of the station or wandering around the area ... but I would have done the same.

Well, considering the absolute disaster that resulted can you explain to the rest of us why you support the actions taken? It seems to me that they could have confronted the suspect after he left the lobby but before he had entered the train. Or, if that wasn't possible and they needed to confront him on the train perhaps they have could kept a low profile and slowly removed people from the car in question before confronting him? Perhaps it will come out that they did everything right, but based on the information released so far the explanation for their actions seems anything but self-evident.

The first rule of shooting is to know what is behind whatever you are shooting at. If in the station or outside, there is a lot more space to consider. Hence, the railcar where the flying projectiles are contained in a small space. And, it is not just the police bullets straying that have to be considered. There is alos the consideration of the guy shooting that really does not care where his bullets go if he misses his target. These reasons say go for the smallest space you can get that has good strong solid walls. On these basises, the coach would appear to be the best choice.

No one has yet said how full the coach was. Maybe they knew, maybe they did not and were surprised by how many people were in the car, but by that time they were commmited. Remember the "nobody rides trains" thought that seems to be floating around.

Well, maybe what I said as the first rule is not. The best first rule is to always treat any gun like it is loaded until proven otherwise.

I thought same as you. With my tactical training (non LEO, unlike you) I was thinking keep the box small and give the alleged perp less options. I'd be interested in seeing the tactical report the Chief of Police gets. After that they may come to the conclusion to do some tactical training with abandoned/out of service cars similar to whats on the track although current stuff would be better OR they may decide that it was better in the station because of maneuverability.

Where I lived in Northeast PA they trained for the airport/bus scenarios but not train as we had no passenger depots nearby. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

NAVYBLUE

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Is this a bad area? We are going into Dallas on Amtrak in a couple weeks. Staying very close to station.

You should be safe in the Union Station area during the day, but as with any major urban area, do keep your Situational Awareness on high.

 

[George Harris]

Is this a bad area? We are going into Dallas on Amtrak in a couple weeks. Staying very close to station.

You should be safe in the Union Station area during the day, but as with any major urban area, do keep your Situational Awareness on high.

Can't speak for now, but I worked within a couple of blocks of there 1986-1988. At night the area was essentially dead. In the daytime it was a fairly good typical downtown.

 

[boxcar479]

Is this a bad area? We are going into Dallas on Amtrak in a couple weeks. Staying very close to station.

You should be safe in the Union Station area during the day, but as with any major urban area, do keep your Situational Awareness on high.

I agree with Olympia H, "Safety is Awarenes" at all times. The West End a popular spot with many restaraunts and shops are within a short walk of Hotel Lawrence. As far as proximity you have picked a good place to stay. Be safe, be careful and have a great trip

 

[Katherine]

I just have one comment to say. I was on board the Amtrak train during the shooting along with my two young boys. We sat only 4 seats back from the deceased suspect. We have had much difficulty dealing emotionally with what we witnessed. I just want to testify on behalf of all the police at the scene. The AMTRAK POLICE AND DALLAS OFFICERS AND HOMUCIDE DETECTIVES SAVED OUR LIves. They took such good care of my boys and I throughout this traumatic ordeal. My boys and I would have been riding all the way to Chicago with an ARMED CONVICTED FELON. you can't know what went on unless you lived it while shots rang out and your children and you had to get down to keep from getting shot. I believe all the police handled very well given the circumstance this CONVICTED AND ARMED FELON BESTOWED UPON US ALL THAT WERE ON BOARD THAT AMTRAK CAR.

 

[VentureForth]

Thank you, Katherine, for your first hand account and taking the time to relive that terrifying moment.

I am thankful that no one else was severly injured.

I can only imagine the impact that this had on your boys. I hope and pray that they have learned what my wife enjoys telling our kids often - bad things happen when you're not doing right.

Though it would have been unlikely that the felon would have pulled his weapon during the course of his ride, the possibility always remains. I'm thankful that he was not allowed to endanger any more people than he already did.

I don't know if the scene was too chaotic at the time, if there was an opportunity for the passengers to have given the police offers an applause for their service.

If you don't mind sharing, would you please let us know how Amtrak handled the situation afterwards? Did you choose to stay onboard the train, or did you ride the bus to your final destination?

Again, I'm sorry for the tragedy you were subjected to, thankful that you and your family stayed safe, and happy to hear that from your account the police did what was right.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Thank you, Katherine, for your first hand account and taking the time to relive that terrifying moment.

What account? I didn't see any new information or anything that contradicted what was previously posted. Just lots of shouting telling us that THE AMTRAK POLICE AND DALLAS OFFICERS AND HOMICIDE DETECTIVES SAVED LIVES by shooting up a train with a CONVICTED AND ARMED FELON that apparently shot nobody. I'm all for taking guns away from convicted felons and nutcases (which our current system apparently fails at), but I'm not sure we can commend the police for a job well done just yet. That also got a lot harder after the primary suspect was killed and non-suspects were injured.

 

[Ryan]

It also left out the part where THE CONVICTED AND ARMED FELON wouldn't have been BESTOWED UPON THEM if the FINE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT had not allowed him to board THE TRAIN IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

[VentureForth]

Thank you, Katherine, for your first hand account and taking the time to relive that terrifying moment.

What account? I didn't see any new information or anything that contradicted what was previously posted. Just lots of shouting telling us that THE AMTRAK POLICE AND DALLAS OFFICERS AND HOMICIDE DETECTIVES SAVED LIVES by shooting up a train with a CONVICTED AND ARMED FELON that apparently shot nobody. I'm all for taking guns away from convicted felons and nutcases (which our current system apparently fails at), but I'm not sure we can commend the police for a job well done just yet. That also got a lot harder after the primary suspect was killed and non-suspects were injured.

A first hand account other than a newspaper. You're right - it's not new and it's not contradictory. It's collaborative.

It also left out the part where THE CONVICTED AND ARMED FELON wouldn't have been BESTOWED UPON THEM if the FINE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE DALLAS POLICE DEPARTMENT had not allowed him to board THE TRAIN IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Again, it looks like the guest poster acknowledged that it was handled in the best way possible and others who posted here who are weapons trained seem to agree that the danger was mitigated by being handled onboard rather than in the station.

 

[Ispolkom]

Maybe I just have lousy google skills, but I find it odd that two weeks later there isn't any more information. I can't find a single follow-up article that gives more information on questions like how many shots were fired, what contraband (if any) the deceased was carrying, what's happened to the peace officer who shot his comrade, etc.

Are Dallas news outlets usually this unenterprising, or is this sort of event not considered big news in the Metroplex?

If I am just a poor researcher, I'd love a pointer to any follow-up.

Oh, and happy holidays, everyone!

 

[Ryan]

Lets not open that can of worms again, shall we? Weapons training, in the absence of knowing what the situation in Dallas actually was brings no greater clarity to the situation. Nothing that has been posted here (or discussed elsewhere in public) gives us the information needed to determine if moving the confrontation to the train was a good idea or not.

Edit - that was directed at VF, not Ispolkom. I agree that it's odd that there hasn't been a lot of followup.

 

[fairviewroad]

Wow, someone comes on here to share their experience of what was probably the most traumatic and dangerous moments of their life,

and the response is to make fun of their posting style?

That really isn't necessary.

 

[NAVYBLUE]

Source # 1

Dallas Police Chief David Brown said that preliminary findings indicate no gunshots were fired from the handgun brandished Monday afternoon by the suspect. The officer and bystander also were shot, though their injuries weren't life-threatening.

Police say three plainclothes officers spotted a suspicious man at Union Station in downtown Dallas and followed him onto a train, then fired shots after the suspect drew a handgun.

The Dallas County Medical Examiner's Office identified the gunman as 32-year-old Stephen Ray Malone Jr. of Waterford, Mich. Online court records show Malone's long criminal history including convictions for larceny, fraud and theft.

Source # 2

A convicted felon intent on not going back to prison was willing to kill a cop, police chief David Brown said Tuesday. Stephen Ray Malone pulled a pistol on undercover police officers from his seat aboard an Amtrak train on Monday but never got a chance to pull the trigger, Brown added.

"What he was able to do before our officers fired the first shot is actually draw the gun out and pointed it in the face of one of our officers," said Chief Brown, Dallas Police Department.

Brown said officers killed Malone before he could shoot anyone.

"Immediately one of our officers heroically was able to fire his weapon and stop that action from happening," Brown said.

Malone had just been released from a Michigan prison for being a habitual burglar. He was on the Amtrak train to Chicago when Dallas police approached him because officers said he looked suspicious. At the time, police were conducting a routine narcotics operation where special squads look for drugs at bus and train stations and at the airport. Amtrak does not screen passengers for weapons or explosives.

"That one security screening would have prevented someone with a weapon getting on a train and would have avoided this from happening," said Chief Brown.

Amtrak said it has its own screening including uniformed officers, random passenger and baggage screening, K-9 units and on board security checks.

But, none of that worked Monday when a felon with a loaded gun traveled on one of their trains.

You're welcome

NAVYBLUE

PS: I am staying out of this one. I am going to let the "experts" on everything train related beat this one to death. I know what I don't know. I don't know LEO tactical decision making processes.

PSS IYOGOOWHG

 

[Ryan]

Citations for the above two sources:

http://www.kgun9.com/news/national/135138833.html

http://www.wfaa.com/news/crime/Undercover-Officer-and-Passenger-Shot-by-Friendly-Fire--135131628.html

If the deceased pulled the gun out from under his seat, does that mean that he was unarmed when the police declined to engage with him while in the station?

Obviously the officers couldn't have known that, but it makes allowing the guy to get back to his seat look even worse.

 

[George Harris]

One of the last things I want to see is the start of airport style creening to get on a train.

I also see no reason to do a lot of Monday Morning Quarterbacking on the actions of the police in this instance.