Shooting at Dallas Union Station, Texas Eagle involved

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jimhudson said:
Reports coming out in the media now say that the only Shots fired on the Train were by the Undercover LEOs!
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That's very much similar to an incident that happened up here this week. A "joint warrant task force" was out serving drug warrants here in Anne Arundel County. This task force rolled up to the house, where the man they sought was out front. They took him into custody without incident, however when then going inside to search the premises a Baltimore County officer somehow shot a Baltimore City officer (word is that it was an accidental discharge, that just happened to occur while his weapon was pointed at another cop). The officer then returned fire, but fortunately missed the county cop that had just shot him.

Some real Barney Fife action there for sure. Guns have their place, but all of NAVYBLUE's ranting about being a trained professional rings hollow.

As an aside, like Jim, I'm a vet that was raised around firearms and have had plenty of formal training while in the Navy to include being a member of a boarding team that went through and searched/cleared vessels.
 
ehbowen said:
Steve4031 said:
Personally I would not want to be in a super liner coach with any body with a gun.
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Would that include a police officer traveling off duty and in plain clothes?
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Let me clarify. I have no problem with off duty police officers or anybody else traveling with a gun if they have the legal right to do so. I meant I would not want to be in a superliner coach with the gun drawn and being fired. It is an enclosed space, and a bullet could miss the target, or go through the target, and hit me or anybody else.

I am not even going to pretend to critique the performance of a law officer using a gun. I don't have the training or knowledge to properly do so. A friend of mine was once a police officer, and he described several incidences where he had to pull out his gun. Fortunately, he never had to shoot anybody. But his description of the adrenaline, and fear that he experienced caused me to stop and reflect and develop a respect for the police. There are stories of police officers shooting people by accident (usually because the person did something to make the officer think they had a gun), and there are stories of military people with training accidentally shooting their own men (friendly fire). Each case shows that trained people can shoot "the wrong person" on occasion. Knowing this, I prefer not be in a situation involving fire arms.

I work in an urban school district, where some of my students have been shot and injured or killed. These are probably illegally owned guns. I wish there was some way to control access to these kinds of guns, because it is traumatic everytime somebody you know gets shot. Yes, I know some of them are gang members, or drug dealers, or something else. However, as a teacher you form relationships with them, their families, and their friends. And I happen to care about them. And see them as people.

My sister has considered getting a hand gun, and I advised her to get professional training to use it. She relied on her boy friend for said training. I disagree. I know there is a gun in her house, and I informed my father because she might not mention it to him. I think he had a right to know there was a gun in the house. If he is moving around at night, and her not trained a$$ wakes up and freaks out, I don't want something to happen.

I know this is somewhat off topic. Getting back to the topic. We are here to discuss our passion of trains. For me, trains represent an escape for the stress and hassles of my job and life. I always feel safe and at home on the train. However, I do know that anything can happen at any place and any time. I think we all hate to see incidents like this happen on Amtrak. However, Amtrak with its baggage policy, and the absence of airline type security, provides an efficient way for drug dealers to travel and move their product. We have seen numerous reports of drug busts on Amtrak trains. To assume that there would not eventually be a drug related shooting on a train would be naive. This is not the first one, and it will not be the last.

If you are traveling, keep your eyes open, and stay safe. EVen in a sleeper.
 
I'm not 100% anti-gun. If you're in some hard to reach rural area where the nearest police assistance is quite some distance away and they're only staffed to handle one or two emergencies at a time then even I might want access to a gun. But in a populated urban center guns become more of a risk than a benefit in my view.

Presumably that's why even most democracies make it very difficult if not impossible for average citizens to own and carry guns. They also suffer far fewer gun related deaths than we happily tolerate. Heck, even in cowboy movies weren't you supposed to check your weapons at the sheriff's office before you could go looking for trouble at the local bar?

I hear gun fanatics tell me that we'd only be trading gun deaths for stabbing deaths if we restricted gun ownership, but that makes no sense to me and isn't borne out by any of the statistics I've ever seen. If my family is being challenged by an attacker with a knife then I still have a decent chance of successfully scuffling with the assailant and either wresting control of the weapon or at least slowing them down long enough to give others a chance to escape. If we're being challenged by a gun-wielding lunatic then by the time we even know the attack is coming we're already being massacred.

This goes double for situations where the attacker is a family member themselves. I can't tell you how many times I've read about some suicidal parent who lost control of their life and decided to take out their whole family in one fell swoop. With a knife attack they'd still catch their family off-guard but someone might be able to tackle them or run away or even just scream for help and alert others. With a sudden gun attack nobody has a chance to do much of anything before being critically wounded.

As if that wasn't bad enough in a murder-suicide shooting the attacker doesn't even need to worry about answering for their heinous crimes. That's not to say that removing guns from the equation would prevent all murder-suicides, but if you're willing to commit suicide by repeatedly stabbing yourself with a knife then my need to see you tried in court is rather diminished.

All this childish Willie Horton nonsense coming from our new hardliner guy doesn't change my mind one bit. If anything it only pushes me further and further toward the gun-control side. Alright, enough of this diversion for now, let's get back to discussing some trains!
 
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Ryan said:
Steve4031 said:
At this point I've read about 10 posts and have seen nothing directly related to what happened on 22. I think we need to get back on topic.

I don't see any potential middle ground on the discussion of legal possession of fire arms. I understand that a properly trained person is likely to use a gun safely and appropriately. Personally I would not want to be in a super liner coach with any body with a gun. Let's get back to talking trains.
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Seconded.

Hell, I support the right to bear arms and think that NAVYBLUE is making folks that support the right to carry look bad.
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Why do I make right to carry people look bad ?

Because I use FACTS that you can not dispute ?

Because I've explained the training I went through, how I assess the situations when I am out and about and that I may have to kill someone to save my or my wife's life ?

Because I've told others you have a right to die at the hands of a criminal if you so wish ?

Because I've stated if you are going to spout off in an uneducated manner about weapons, weapon training or weapon law I am going to challenge you.

Ryan, you DO NOT support the right to carry anymore than the people who say I support the troops but not the war. That statement and the I don't want to be in a Superliner with someone with a "Gun" and lets get back to our trains tells me all this is making you queasy.

1. Criminals carry "guns", LEGAL permit carry persons carry "weapons"

2. Weapons mean more than pistols, revolver and rifles.

3. Unless you live in California or Illinois, don't go to McDonalds, the grocery store, gas station, library etc. I guarantee you almost every day you walk by someone or sit near someone who has a LEGAL concealed weapon who is not a LEO.

So a LEO, FBI, DEA, TSA, etc officer is not allowed to be in the same coach as you. Right ?

Come on, say it with me. I don't like guns, I don't own a gun, I don't want a gun, I don't know anything about guns and I really don't want others to have guns.

Know, if you were to tell me you have never had the desire to own a gun but believe it is MY constitutional right to LEGALLY carry a weapon, then I might respect your feelings.

But you're an anti-gunner who believes in selective CHOICE.

I see your're from Maryland where you can get a LEGAL weapon permit if your life has been threatened. How peachy.

Thank you for your participation in democracy.

NAVYBLUE
 
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I think we can agree to disagree about whether we, the public, should carry guns on trains. I fully agree that some folks disagree with me and have an absolute right to their opinion. Furthermore, I absolutely believe that those who disagree with me do so in good faith. And even further-more-er, I am open to having my opinion changed. (Note: I have not stated what my opinion *is*, and I don't feel the need to do so.) Nuff said bout that.

The topic I'd like to see debated is slightly, but importantly different. It's not whether the average Joe(anne) should carry a gun on board a train.

The question we should be asking here is this: is it appropriate for a Dallas (or any city) police officer to take it upon himself to carry *his* weapon on board a train?

I listened to the DPD chief talking on the radio (saying what was quoted earlier), and based on my highly limited knowledge of firearms and ballistics, I think he's full of crap. If the DPD confronts the suspect in the station, AND IF THEY DO IT RIGHT, then there's little chance of an armed confrontation. If it turns into "a running gun battle", as the chief said might have happened, then that means that the cops completely screwed up the bust.

Seriously! DPD can bring a force of over a hundred cops in riot gear to tear down a few tents, as they did a couple of weeks ago to protect Bank of America's planter boxes. They can't position a half-dozen trained narcotics agents to ensure that taking down a suspicious person sitting on a bench doesn't turn into a running gun battle? A hundred cops for a few stoners, but just a couple of Chuck Norris wannabes with bad aim for a wanted felon who, as the chief said, "wasn't going to be taken alive"?

The chief spoke as though an armed confrontation in an aluminum tube was preferable to the Shootout at the OK Corral (aka Union Station). Would he have said the same if the tube had wings, and was parked at Love Field? If he did, would anyone have hesitated to call for his job?

The Dallas Morning News has a front-page article today, wondering if trains should be subject to the same security theater as airports. The answer, obviously, is no... not when the biggest danger to passengers is cowboy cops who don't know when to call for backup.
 
BUMP.

Posted Today, 12:02 AM

On tonight's (Tuesday's) 10 o'clock news in interviews Dallas Police Chief David Brown admitted that slain suspect most likely did not even discharge his weapon.

That means, pending any conclusive ballistics tests, all GSWs inflicted were fired by Dallas cops.

Chief also noted the officers "followed the suspect" to the train to check him out, rather than in the station, which the chief repeatedly referred to as "the lobby." Brown said the train was a "safer place to confront the suspect" than in "the lobby." “We could have had a running gun battle in a lobby, he said. "The officers, in my opinion, approached this gentleman in the best way possible.”

That makes sense. Confront suspect in confined stainless steel tubular box full of passengers, add three plainsclothes cops, at least four weapons, and see what happens. In a "lobby" (i.e. station) like Dallas Union Station, people could at least flee. I think DPD screwed the pooch on this one.

Wonder if Amtrak's "top cop" John O'Connor, Amtrak VP/Chief of Police, in Dallas for a meeting, may raise some hell with locals boarding his train and creating what turned out to be quite a cluster and safety hazard.

Victim/suspect was Stephen Ray Malone Jr., 32, Waterford, Mich. Online court records show Malone's long criminal history including convictions for larceny, fraud and theft.

Nothing yet noted in his criminal record about drug possession or trafficking.
 
NAVYBLUE said:
But you're an anti-gunner who believes in selective CHOICE.
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BS. Don't you dare ever tell me what I believe again.

This is exactly why you make the pro-second amendment look bad. Your arrogance is astounding. You don't win any friends calling people names, instead drive people to the other side of the argument.

It's a good thing that you weren't one of my sailors.
 
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This one has gotten way off topic and out of control. The two sides to the non-topic discussion will never agree and there is no sense going any further. I've locked it to let things cool off. If you get any news about the topic, let us know and we'll add it on to the thread.

Thanks!
 
In this link there is a report that the suspect had his weapon out and was brandishing it. This is probably the reason the DPD officers fired and if true, justified.

From AU Member leemell
 
I'm going to reopen this topic since I expect that additional news regarding this incident will come out and further discussions may ensue.

Let's however please keep the discussion to the incident and not a discussion on gun owner's rights. Thanks! :)
 
I think Amtrak trains and stations need to hire on-board and in-station police to protect passengers from the local police and TSA! I mean seriously, this should have never happened. While the suspect shouldn't have pulled a gun, they had no reason to ask him to have his bag searched. "Behaving Suspiciously" is too broad of a term. Let's all remember that taking a picture of a train station or listening to a scanner can count as "suspicious."
 
Let me try this again!

Less than 20 minutes after I reopened this topic and asked people to please stay on the topic of the shooting incident onboard the Texas Eagle, someone comes along with a post about gun owner's rights. It's become quite clear that certain posters cannot discuss that topic without getting heated and trading insults. Therefore we will NOT be discussing that topic any more.

Please stay on the topic of the shooting on the Eagle! Thank you! :)
 
AlanB said:
Let me try this again!

Less than 20 minutes after I reopened this topic and asked people to please stay on the topic of the shooting incident onboard the Texas Eagle, someone comes along with a post about gun owner's rights. It's become quite clear that certain posters cannot discuss that topic without getting heated and trading insults. Therefore we will NOT be discussing that topic any more.

Please stay on the topic of the shooting on the Eagle! Thank you! :)
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Thank You!
 
haolerider said:
AlanB said:
Let me try this again!

Less than 20 minutes after I reopened this topic and asked people to please stay on the topic of the shooting incident onboard the Texas Eagle, someone comes along with a post about gun owner's rights. It's become quite clear that certain posters cannot discuss that topic without getting heated and trading insults. Therefore we will NOT be discussing that topic any more.

Please stay on the topic of the shooting on the Eagle! Thank you! :)
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Thank You!
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Second
 
I still don't understand why they felt a train full of innocent bystanders was a great place to confront this man. Or what exactly tipped them off in the first place. I'm also curious what was actually in the bag they were so anxious to search. Unfortunately getting to the bottom of this story is forever complicated by the fact that the suspect was killed and we only have one side of story that can still speak.
 
Texas Sunset said:
I still don't understand why they felt a train full of innocent bystanders was a great place to confront this man.
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Agreed!

And I'm still trying to rationalize how the police chief thought it was better to have the potential for shooting in the close quarters of a rail car where exits & shelter is very limited, as opposed to the train station where people can run out a multitude of doors or hide behind walls and such.

If indeed the initial reports are true, that the suspect never fired his gun, then the fact that one officer shot another would seem to indicate that it wasn't a good idea to do this in the close confines of the railcar.
 
Not to be controversial :giggle: , but what will happen to the 'crime scene' car?
 
AlanB said:
Texas Sunset said:
I still don't understand why they felt a train full of innocent bystanders was a great place to confront this man.
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Agreed!

And I'm still trying to rationalize how the police chief thought it was better to have the potential for shooting in the close quarters of a rail car where exits & shelter is very limited, as opposed to the train station where people can run out a multitude of doors or hide behind walls and such.

If indeed the initial reports are true, that the suspect never fired his gun, then the fact that one officer shot another would seem to indicate that it wasn't a good idea to do this in the close confines of the railcar.
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Yep. Maybe it is stating the obvious, but it sure seems like one, or several, 'officials' really screwed up, and in hindsight, made some pretty bad choices. A sad part of this story is that if someone had not been killed, there likely would be no questioning of the actions, even though, as Alan says, you really have to wonder why anyone would think a railcar filled with passengers would be a good place to confront the suspect.
 
From the story tied to the photo linked above...

[Deputy police Chief] Blankenbaker said exact details, including who fired the shots and why police singled out the individual, would not be immediately released. Blankenbaker also would not say what led to the confrontation or if it was within protocol to engage a suspect on a crowded train...Police escorted an emotional woman off the train who screamed, "He's dead; he's dead."...Witnesses at the scene said the incident happened without warning. "I was looking down at my phone and all of the sudden I heard, 'Get off me; get off me,' and then 'pop, pop, pop, pop," said Jonathan Beaubien, a passenger from Gainesville, Texas. "I hit the ground and then ran off the train."
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They don't seem to be claiming this is established protocol, at least not yet.
 
Since the "crime scene was contained in the one coach, I do not understand why the rest of the train was not separated, in front and behind, reassembnled on an adjacent track and sent on its way.

At the risk of straying, I have difficulty understanding thet lack of fire control on the part of the police. This has happened elsewhere. A few weeks back, in San Francisco, a policeman took a shot at a person running into or toward a crowd and managed to hit two uninolved people with the one bullet.
 
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George Harris said:
Since the "crime scene was contained in the one coach, I do not understand why the rest of the train was not separated, in front and behind, reassembnled on an adjacent track and sent on its way.

A few weeks back, in San Francisco, a policeman took a shot at a person running into or toward a crowd and managed to hit two uninolved people with the one bullet.
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Part A = Too logical.

Part B = George, it was like 100 yards from this Superliner shooting where "one" famous bullet hit two people -- in Dealey Plaza,,,
 
When the story first broke, on local news channells, there were conflicting reorts. Some said this was tied to a drug smuggling investigation that had been going on for months, others just made mention that the deceased was acting suspicious inside the station prompting the undercover officers to follow the guy back onto the train to question him. Someone on this forum said the brother was quoted as going back to his cabin or something to the effect that they had more than coach accomodations on the train. IMO. So what was the guy doing in coach anyway? Trying to blend in awaqy from the incriminating evidence perhaps? Right now there are more questions than answers for sure. Another conspiracy perhaps :eek:hboy: . I do agree that a loaded train car is no place for a gunfight, although I don't think the offender left the good guys with a whole lot of choice!
 
I saw a clip on the internet of the Dallas police chief who continues to state that his officers did the right thing in having the confrontation on the train instead of the station. It is mind boggling to me that he thinks that was the right call!

I definitely would be interested in hearing more details as they come out. I do feel very badly for the poor passenger - I believe there was one innocent bystander - wounded in the melee.
 
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