From a PR viewpoint, the good news is there is a lot of free publicity for the Texas Eagle in Dallas and Fort Worth. The bad news is that people on the train were shot. Not the sort of positive press coverage you want.
Shooting at Dallas Union Station, Texas Eagle involved
- Thread starter RobertB
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Cho Cho Charlie
Engineer
I can never understand it either, that is always assumed that any well-armed by-standers would instantly know who are the "bad" guys and who are the "good" guys (that includes all other well-armed by-standers), and when the discharge their weapon they always hit their target (and only their target) 100% of the time. I guess these are the people who only have to buy one bullseye target in their life time, since every bullet at the target range always goes thru the same hole in the dead center.
Bought a copy of the 'Dallas Morning News' this morning.
Had a picture with this caption
[ Dallas police take an unidentifed woman into custody who was shouting, "I'm not a criminal! I'm not a criminal! My Husband is dead! He's dead! After a shooting at Union Station. ]
The story also states that Amtrak Chief of Police John J. O'Connor happened to be in Dallas on a business and responded to the shooting. However he was unavailable for comment.
Had a picture with this caption
[ Dallas police take an unidentifed woman into custody who was shouting, "I'm not a criminal! I'm not a criminal! My Husband is dead! He's dead! After a shooting at Union Station. ]
The story also states that Amtrak Chief of Police John J. O'Connor happened to be in Dallas on a business and responded to the shooting. However he was unavailable for comment.
Montanan
OBS Chief
So does anyone know when the train was finally able to leave town?
OlympianHiawatha
Engineer
9:27 PM Monday
I wonder how many vouchers you get for being shot?
The Amtrak Status Map table for the 22(5) shows that it was down 5:47 leaving Dallas, but made up time getting into Chicago 3:27 late. Did they unload everyone from the train or were people still on board as the TE completed its run?
G
guest
Guest
maybe there's a better word than "unload" in this case! :giggle:
Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
I wonder what the maximum value of a single voucher is?
NAVYBLUE
Lead Service Attendant
I LOVE educating the uneducated masses. YOU assume all that you stated. We (legal permit holders) don't assume any of what you stated. See my posts under TSA and maybe you'll get it. In all the statistics I quoted, 99% of all discharges of weapons carried by LEGAL permit holders are one and one with normally few people around. VERY rarely does a LEGAL permit holder get in a shooting match when there is MORE than one shooter and innocent people around. Why ?
1. The police officer might not know you are a "good guy".
2. The "bad" guy might have an automatic weapon. I am not NORMALLY allowed to possess an automatic weapon, but of course YOU already knew that didn't you. I didn't think so.
3. I could kill an innocent bystander.
4. The police officer doesn't even know "instantly" who the bad guys or good guys are. How the hell would I know instantly.
5. Usually permit holders have taken classes (Tactical Defense) or other classes and learned how to assess situations prior to them occurring. We learn color awareness coding (Before TSA ever discovered it) Green, Yellow, Orange and Red.
6. I am Green in my house, doors locked, weapons accessible.
7. I am Yellow anytime, anywhere I am outside.
8. I am Orange anytime I am anywhere near a male 16-55 (color doesn't matter in case you think we profile) who is within 75-100 yards of me, doesn't look like he belongs or possesses the traits in item 11.
9. I am Red(weapon in my hand) when I know my/wife's life is in imminent danger or I have been threatened with my life.
10. We are taught that when shots are fired 99.9% percent of the people run or hit the ground. Who does that leave ? Two or more bad guys shooting at each other OR a police officer/s and one or more bad guys. You only shoot when you know the LEO is in imminent danger of being killed. Let them take the actions they are TRAINED to perform. We permit holders are NOT cowboys from the wild west. We want to live just like you do.
11. We are taught the eye movements, clothing, mannerisms, body movements, tactics and personality traits of potential bad guys.
12. We are trained to shoot if we have a clear shot to take someone down who is about to kill a police officer or bystander.
13. Last but not least, DO NOT believe what you read in the press or hear on TV( including FOX) They are the most incredibly stupid and uninformed people in America when it comes to weapons, self defense and weapons training.
If you are ever to visit Las Vegas know that there are trained LEGAL permit holders there to assist you in living to return home to your loved ones.
NAVYBLUE
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The Davy Crockett
Engineer
And I can easily see the cops 'shooting to kill' the 'well-armed bystander' in the confusion. Police do not 'train' for situations where a well armed 'citizen' starts assisting them from 'out of the blue' and there is a very good chance that they would fire at anyone who is not a police officer that starts shooting in such a tense and bloody scenario. These situations really do need to be left in the control of profeesionals. Turning such an incident into the 'wild west' will only end up killing more innocent people almost every time.
NAVYBLUE
Lead Service Attendant
For a courtesy voucher, at last check, it was $500. In the past, when I was getting more than $500 for a problem with a trip, I got multiple.
The Chief
Lead Service Attendant
On tonight's 10 o'clock news in interviews Dallas Police Chief David Brown admitted that slain suspect most likely did not even discharge his weapon.
That means, pending any conclusive ballistics tests, all GSWs were fired by Dallas cops.
Chief also noted the officers "followed the suspect" to the train to check him out, rather than in the station, which the chief repeatedly referred to as "the lobby." Brown said the train was a "safer place to confront the suspect" than in "the lobby." “We could have had a running gun battle in a lobby, he said. "The officers, in my opinion, approached this gentleman in the best way possible.”
That makes sense. Confront suspect in confined stainless steel tubular box full of passengers, add three plainsclothes cops, at least four weapons, and see what happens. In a "lobby" (i.e. station) like Dallas Union Station, people could at least flee. I think DPD screwed the pooch on this one.
Wonder if Amtrak's "top cop" John O'Connor, Amtrak VP/Chief of Police, in Dallas for a meeting, may raise some hell with locals boarding his train and creating what turned out to be quite a cluster and safety hazard.
That means, pending any conclusive ballistics tests, all GSWs were fired by Dallas cops.
Chief also noted the officers "followed the suspect" to the train to check him out, rather than in the station, which the chief repeatedly referred to as "the lobby." Brown said the train was a "safer place to confront the suspect" than in "the lobby." “We could have had a running gun battle in a lobby, he said. "The officers, in my opinion, approached this gentleman in the best way possible.”
That makes sense. Confront suspect in confined stainless steel tubular box full of passengers, add three plainsclothes cops, at least four weapons, and see what happens. In a "lobby" (i.e. station) like Dallas Union Station, people could at least flee. I think DPD screwed the pooch on this one.
Wonder if Amtrak's "top cop" John O'Connor, Amtrak VP/Chief of Police, in Dallas for a meeting, may raise some hell with locals boarding his train and creating what turned out to be quite a cluster and safety hazard.
Devil's Advocate
⠀⠀⠀
It's a reference to a series of oddball books and the internal narrative they become part of in a movie called Fight Club. I posted it because that's honestly what entered my mind as I was reading Mr. Blue's manifesto. I suppose it's his prerogative if he'd rather spend his time here pushing some sort of hardline gun policy agenda than to discuss the finer points of passenger rail, but if I lose interest in his lecturing and poke some fun at the ludicrous nature of it all then that's my prerogative as well. You'd hope a man with easy access to guns and ammo would have a calm attitude and constructive temperament, but something about Mr. Blue makes me wonder.
NAVYBLUE
Lead Service Attendant
OK kiddies here we go. Here's what was said by out illustrious Mr. T.S. to get the ball rolling"
Posted 05 December 2011 - 03:52 PM
https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=333250George Harris, on 05 December 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:
https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=333049Texan Eagle, on 04 December 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:
https://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=333048dlagrua, on 04 December 2011 - 01:46 PM, said:
Citizens with carry permits should also be allowed to keep their pistols on their person instead of checking them in their luggage. Would a terorist be able to do anything bad if he knew that many people aboard every train were armed?
Are you suggesting these people should also be allowed to use their weapons in case of a perceived threat of terror? If no, it is not going to deter a potential terrorist because he/she knows that although there are a bunch of people carrying guns onboard, none of them is allowed to use it on him/her. On the other hand, if there are going to be a bunch of people onboard the train who have the permission to use their weapons on a perceived threat, sorry, I am not traveling on Amtrak anymore. Can't say when one of them will think I am a potential terrorist and might cause harm to me. Sorry, bad idea.
Yes. Why should they not?
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NAVYBLUE
Lead Service Attendant
Mr T.S. reply:
Why not simply replace our constitution with a decree of mob justice then?
If equipping just about anyone with guns made everyone safer then Texas would be one of the safest places on Earth.
Unfortunately that's just not how it works out in the end.
Here in gun-friendly Texas we've had multiple shootings and hostage takings where the "good guys" had plenty of guns on them.
So why has this not become a major deterrent? Why are so few people saved by these good guys?
In general it's because the gun fanatics had no training on handling sudden violence beyond how to fire their weapon.
In simple terms the they had no clue who to shoot or why or when. They were just as confused about what was going on as everyone else.
Many of then remained holed up in the bathroom/closet/whatever unable to see what was going on or take any decisive action.
Nor did they have the ability to identify other "good guys" and coordinate their actions.
Sometimes it's fun to imagine taking things into our own hands and happily devolving into a primitive cowboy style legal system free of justice and liberty.
Unfortunately the reality of the situation is that none of that crap actually works the way it does in the movies.
Maybe that sort of nonsense would fly in Nigeria, but certainly not in a modern urbanized democracy.
Why not simply replace our constitution with a decree of mob justice then?<br style="mso-special-character:line-break"> <br style="mso-special-character:line-break">
I know, I know he is a literary genius
NAVYBLUE
NAVYBLUE
Lead Service Attendant
My Reply:
Research on violent crimes prevented by citizens per year with LEGALLY owned firearms and numbers
1.7 million Hart Research Associates 1996
1.5 million John Lott (U. of Florida) 1998
2.1 million Klerk/Gertz (NW Law School) 1999
2.0 million Clinton Justice Dept 1999
NONE of these researchers are conservative organizations or gun right organizations
You sir have every right to sit and watch your loved ones and others murdered/raped etc while you sit/sat and did nothing. I have the constitutional right to insure to the best extent possible that it NEVER happens to me or my family. EVERY weapons permit holder I've talked to (and myself) knows that if we have to kill someone to save our/family members, that it will affect our lives forever. Permit holders learn the 3 S's real early. Lessen your chances of ever having to use your weapon by NOT going to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things.
Dept of Justice/FBI stats show as a PERCENTAGE of state population that the more restrictive a state is on issuing permits to LEGALLY allowed citizens, the higher the violent crime rate. The bluer the state the higher the PERCENTAGE is of violent crime and deaths per 100,000 people
Citizens kill (Legally) more felons per year than law enforcement personnel by a 9 to 1 ratio. Very few ever spend time in jail for convictions of use of deadly force. My brother is a former LEO and uncle is a retired Oklahoma Highway patrolman. Both have told me that there primary job is take the information AFTER the violent crime is committed and try to find the perpetrator/s. A police officer is not going to save you from being murdered if you are counting on that.
I remember when Arizona passed constitutional carry two years ago which allows all 21 year old or older LEGAL citizens to open carry a weapon. The local/national news was full of stories of blood in the streets. Never happened.
The most anti weapons people are usually the most ignorant and 99% of the media falls in that category. 99% of the media, 99% of the people on this forum and 99% of the general public can not tell me when if I asked them what is an ASSAULT rifle, what is a semi automatic rifle, what is a semi automatic pistol, what is a revolver and what is a double action revolver according to the BATF.
As I told the other gentleman, when the SHTF around you, you better hope a permit holder is nearby to maybe stop the murder/rape.
NAVYBLUE
Lead Service Attendant
My reply to another person who felt the need to be educated:
I LOVE educating the uneducated masses. YOU assume all that you stated. We (legal permit holders) don't assume any of what you stated. See my posts under TSA and maybe you'll get it. In all the statistics I quoted, 99% of all discharges of weapons carried by LEGAL permit holders are one and one with normally few people around. VERY rarely does a LEGAL permit holder get in a shooting match when there is MORE than one shooter and innocent people around. Why ?
1. The police officer might not know you are a "good guy".
2. The "bad" guy might have an automatic weapon. I am not NORMALLY allowed to possess an automatic weapon, but of course YOU already knew that didn't you. I didn't think so.
3. I could kill an innocent bystander.
4. The police officer doesn't even know "instantly" who the bad guys or good guys are. How the hell would I know instantly.
5. Usually permit holders have taken classes (Tactical Defense) or other classes and learned how to assess situations prior to them occurring. We learn color awareness coding (Before TSA ever discovered it) Green, Yellow, Orange and Red.
6. I am Green in my house, doors locked, weapons accessible.
7. I am Yellow anytime, anywhere I am outside.
8. I am Orange anytime I am anywhere near a male 16-55 (color doesn't matter in case you think we profile) who is within 75-100 yards of me, doesn't look like he belongs or possesses the traits in item 11.
9. I am Red(weapon in my hand) when I know my/wife's life is in imminent danger or I have been threatened with my life.
10. We are taught that when shots are fired 99.9% percent of the people run or hit the ground. Who does that leave ? Two or more bad guys shooting at each other OR a police officer/s and one or more bad guys. You only shoot when you know the LEO is in imminent danger of being killed. Let them take the actions they are TRAINED to perform. We permit holders are NOT cowboys from the wild west. We want to live just like you do.
11. We are taught the eye movements, clothing, mannerisms, body movements, tactics and personality traits of potential bad guys.
12. We are trained to shoot if we have a clear shot to take someone down who is about to kill a police officer or bystander.
13. Last but not least, DO NOT believe what you read in the press or hear on TV( including FOX) They are the most incredibly stupid and uninformed people in America when it comes to weapons, self defense and weapons training.
If you are ever to visit Las Vegas know that there are trained LEGAL permit holders there to assist you in living to return home to your loved ones.
NAVYBLUE
I LOVE educating the uneducated masses. YOU assume all that you stated. We (legal permit holders) don't assume any of what you stated. See my posts under TSA and maybe you'll get it. In all the statistics I quoted, 99% of all discharges of weapons carried by LEGAL permit holders are one and one with normally few people around. VERY rarely does a LEGAL permit holder get in a shooting match when there is MORE than one shooter and innocent people around. Why ?
1. The police officer might not know you are a "good guy".
2. The "bad" guy might have an automatic weapon. I am not NORMALLY allowed to possess an automatic weapon, but of course YOU already knew that didn't you. I didn't think so.
3. I could kill an innocent bystander.
4. The police officer doesn't even know "instantly" who the bad guys or good guys are. How the hell would I know instantly.
5. Usually permit holders have taken classes (Tactical Defense) or other classes and learned how to assess situations prior to them occurring. We learn color awareness coding (Before TSA ever discovered it) Green, Yellow, Orange and Red.
6. I am Green in my house, doors locked, weapons accessible.
7. I am Yellow anytime, anywhere I am outside.
8. I am Orange anytime I am anywhere near a male 16-55 (color doesn't matter in case you think we profile) who is within 75-100 yards of me, doesn't look like he belongs or possesses the traits in item 11.
9. I am Red(weapon in my hand) when I know my/wife's life is in imminent danger or I have been threatened with my life.
10. We are taught that when shots are fired 99.9% percent of the people run or hit the ground. Who does that leave ? Two or more bad guys shooting at each other OR a police officer/s and one or more bad guys. You only shoot when you know the LEO is in imminent danger of being killed. Let them take the actions they are TRAINED to perform. We permit holders are NOT cowboys from the wild west. We want to live just like you do.
11. We are taught the eye movements, clothing, mannerisms, body movements, tactics and personality traits of potential bad guys.
12. We are trained to shoot if we have a clear shot to take someone down who is about to kill a police officer or bystander.
13. Last but not least, DO NOT believe what you read in the press or hear on TV( including FOX) They are the most incredibly stupid and uninformed people in America when it comes to weapons, self defense and weapons training.
If you are ever to visit Las Vegas know that there are trained LEGAL permit holders there to assist you in living to return home to your loved ones.
NAVYBLUE
NAVYBLUE
Lead Service Attendant
OK, if you want me to stop people then DON'"T post stupid remarks about weapons, gun control or gun law unless you have unbiased facts. I'm a trained professional. I'll just make you look stupid.
I had a personal email correspondence with a gentleman on AU who doesn't own a weapon and doesn't want to carry a weapon who posted about guns. I told him I respect him for his beliefs because he wasn't trying to stop me from exercising my constitutional right and I wasn't trying to impose my beliefs on him.
NAVYBLUE
I had a personal email correspondence with a gentleman on AU who doesn't own a weapon and doesn't want to carry a weapon who posted about guns. I told him I respect him for his beliefs because he wasn't trying to stop me from exercising my constitutional right and I wasn't trying to impose my beliefs on him.
NAVYBLUE
At this point I've read about 10 posts and have seen nothing directly related to what happened on 22. I think we need to get back on topic.
I don't see any potential middle ground on the discussion of legal possession of fire arms. I understand that a properly trained person is likely to use a gun safely and appropriately. Personally I would not want to be in a super liner coach with any body with a gun. Let's get back to talking trains.
I don't see any potential middle ground on the discussion of legal possession of fire arms. I understand that a properly trained person is likely to use a gun safely and appropriately. Personally I would not want to be in a super liner coach with any body with a gun. Let's get back to talking trains.
ehbowen
Engineer
Would that include a police officer traveling off duty and in plain clothes?
Ryan
Court Jester
Seconded.
Hell, I support the right to bear arms and think that NAVYBLUE is making folks that support the right to carry look bad.
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amamba
Engineer
I take personal offense to being called part of the "uneducated masses."
As it is now, you are not allowed to bring your weapon on an amtrak train. I am fine with the regulations as they stand now. All personal firearms must be carried in the baggage car.
If you want to bring your weapon on a train, then please write to your congresspeople or to Joe Boardman and ask for the regulations to be changed. Or maybe the NRA would be happy to get behind that as well.
As it is now, you are not allowed to bring your weapon on an amtrak train. I am fine with the regulations as they stand now. All personal firearms must be carried in the baggage car.
If you want to bring your weapon on a train, then please write to your congresspeople or to Joe Boardman and ask for the regulations to be changed. Or maybe the NRA would be happy to get behind that as well.
I agree Steve, but first a couple of words from our Sponsor as they say! I;m a Texan, a Vet, raised with and trained in Firearm use and safety (and HAVE Used them in various forms!) but Reports coming out in the media now say that the only Shots fired on the Train were by the Undercover LEOs! I too would not want to be on an Amtrak Car where guns were being used by ANYONE!!! A sad situation for sure, Im fully aware of the Second Ammendment(an Support it within the Parameters of how it is written, ie "A well regulated mIlitia" is pretty clear!), but the worst Shooting in Recent Times happened @ Ft. Hood,Texas, an Army Base! Plenty of Arms and Trained People there but it took a Civilian Police Officer from OFF the Base! to end it!), I dont wat a bunch of Texas Vigilantes packing heat on my Trains, Dirty Harry was a Movie and John Wayne is Dead and was a Phony Movie Star and Draft Dodger!! :help:
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