RFP issued for Amfleet I replacement

Discussion in 'Amtrak Rail Discussion' started by keelhauled, Jan 18, 2019.

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  1. Nov 5, 2019 #201

    west point

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    It might be the best once enough EMUs delivered is to operate them EMU on the electrified portion and just couple a diesel with compatible HEP for trains outside electrified territory ? That would speed up some for southbound trains at WASH and much faster for northbound trains as engineer could board EMU and once diesel departs stat his updating of the EMU with various procedures required ?

    This procedure as well at New Haven and NYP for any thru trains for Albany.
     
  2. Nov 5, 2019 #202

    jis

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    Why not simply order EDMUs instead? The rest of the world is using them quite successfully.

    Actually depending on planned usage the order could be for a mix of EMUs and EDMUs like has been done in the UK for instance.
     
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  3. Nov 5, 2019 #203

    philabos

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    Good point. The U.K. Equipment can run electric and then switch over to diesel on non electrified portions.
    Would they meet FRA crash standards though?
    Seem to run fine along with freight in the UK.
     
  4. Nov 5, 2019 #204

    jis

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    There is nothing UK specific about the EDMU technology. They could as easily be hosted on a Viaggio or similar US certified platform. Stadler has them available on US certified platform already, though has not been ordered by anyone in US yet, to my knowledge.
     
  5. Nov 6, 2019 #205

    JustOnce

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    I agree. Really it's a matter of designing the transformer big enough for 25 Hz* (and European systems go as low as 16.7 Hz) and having an 11/12 kV tap and a 25 kV tap with an auto tap changer. The input inverters will handle any voltage discrepancy between 11 kV PRR and 12.5 kV MetroNorth.



    *=low frequency AC means larger transformers but smaller electric motors when "universal" motors were used. Universal motors were essentially DC motors (brushes and commutators) and lower frequencies eased commutator arcing.
     
  6. Nov 6, 2019 #206

    west point

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    The Amtrak PRR CAT voltage is now 12 Kv nominal +/- 10% . Has been since the 1980s when they went from 11.5 Kv.
     
  7. Nov 7, 2019 #207

    drdumont

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    Maybe it is covered elsewhere, but this is a long thread. Was I wrong in assuming the NEC is AC, and when NJT updated the Morristown lines, did it not convert to AC at that time?
     
  8. Nov 7, 2019 #208

    jis

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    Both are AC but of different flavors.

    NEC South is 12kV 25Hz.

    NJT is 25kV 60Hz. (both Morristown and Gladstone Lines and Coast Line South of Matawan to Long Branch)

    For the sake of completeness...

    MNRR (New Haven Line) is 12.5kV 60Hz. (including Amtrak Hell Gate Line to Gate interlocking)

    NEC North (New Haven to Boston) is 25kV 60Hz.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2019
  9. Nov 8, 2019 #209

    drdumont

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    Thanks for clearing the fog from my harbor, JIS!
    Didn't know they were still using 25 cycle power.
    Again, Thanks!
     
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  10. Nov 10, 2019 #210

    Andrew

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    I wonder if Amtrak would just one company, such as Siemens, for the new passenger coaches coupled with electric locomotives and Dual-Powered Integrated Train-sets manufactured by another company, such as Hitachi?

    Or it would make more financial sense for Amtrak to go with one manufacture for the entire Amfleet replacement?
     
  11. Nov 10, 2019 #211

    Ryan

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    25kV, right? :)
     
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  12. Nov 10, 2019 #212

    jis

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    Right. Corrected. Thanks.
     
  13. Nov 10, 2019 #213

    JustOnce

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    NJT switches to 25kV/60Hz at Matawan. I believe they were able to extend to Matawan off the original grid ending at South Amboy.
     
  14. Nov 10, 2019 #214

    jis

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    You are correct the changeover is just south of Matawan. Corrected. Thanks.
     
  15. Dec 11, 2019 #215

    frequentflyer

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    Anderson's latest appearance before congress committee he touched on the Amfleet replacement, and it seems Amtrak is going EMU/DMU for replacements. Hitachi 802? Or maybe Siemens if they have a product.
     
  16. Dec 11, 2019 #216

    PerRock

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    Almost everyone that makes trains makes an EMU/DMU... and often a couple different ones depending on the need. It'll go thru a bidding process, but my guess is that it'll end up being either Alstom or Siemens.

    peter
     
  17. Dec 11, 2019 #217

    rickycourtney

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    The Amfleet replacement RFP said that Amtrak was open to complete trainsets, self-propelled multiple units, or individual railcars.

    The more recent "Equipment Asset Line Plan" even included this fun graphic:
    Amtrak_Amfleet_Replacements.jpg
    If they go the DMU route, the only US compliant equipment currently being produced are the Stadler FLIRT, Stadler GTW and the Nippon Sharyo DMU.

    Honestly, I don't think Amtrak is going to go the DMU/EMU route. They just spent 466 million dollars purchasing 70 Siemens Sprinter electric locomotives and they are about to spend 850 million dollars to purchase 75 Siemens Charger diesel locomotives.

    I think there will be a lot of companies pitching the contract.

    Depending on how the RFP is written, Siemens may have an edge over everyone else. They are currently building single-level railcars for the US market and having a proven track record with a proven product is often heavily weighted. Siemens has also shown that they are willing to build the equipment as complete trainsets or as individual railcars, and with locomotives on either end or with a cab car.

    That said, if it's a large enough order, any company could afford to do a clean sheet design, or adapt a foreign design to the US standards.
     
  18. Dec 11, 2019 #218

    frequentflyer

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    The Charger purchases were to replace Genesis which are mostly LD, so that means nothing in this decision. The Sprinters are just a version of the Vectron sold worldwide. By the time the EMUs are delivered the Sprinters will be 5-7 years old and snapped up by Septa, NJT,MART, etc.
     
  19. Dec 11, 2019 #219

    frequentflyer

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  20. Dec 11, 2019 #220

    rickycourtney

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    Here's a transcript of Anderson's statement:
    So yes, he could be describing self-propelled multiple units (DMU or EMU), but he could also be describing complete locomotive-hauled trainsets.

    An example would be the ÖBB/ČD Railjet which is a series of Siemens Viaggo Comfort cars, coupled together as a married trainset. They are hauled by a Siemens EuroSprinter locomotive and they do have a cab car. Same design as new VIA trainsets, similar to the Brightline trainsets (Brightline uses 2 locomotives instead of a cab car) and the new California trainsets.
     
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  21. Dec 11, 2019 #221

    NeueAmtrakCalifornia

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    The best choice for Amtrak in this situation is going to be EDMUs (Amtrak needs to also solve the engine switch problem). There will ultimately be two contenders (Stadler and Hitachi Rail), though I think Hitachi's A-Train might win out over Stadler's FLIRT because the A-Train is not articulated (makes maintenancr easier). Perhaps this design would be called the Cityliner.
    Of course this would supplant many ACS-64s but they can find new life with MBTA and SEPTA
     
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  22. Dec 11, 2019 #222

    chrsjrcj

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    The ACS-64s will still have some use with the 3.5 long distance trains that use the Corridor, plus maybe the Palmetto and Carolinian too (if they're not replaced by new DMUs).

    I wonder if a EDMU makes sense for trains like the Palmetto and Carolinian?
     
  23. Dec 12, 2019 #223

    NeueAmtrakCalifornia

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    Has Amtrak looked at using DMUs for those two? If so then they can just use the Cityliners (perhaps they can make the lead cars incorporate a baggage component)
     
  24. Dec 12, 2019 #224

    rickycourtney

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    What is the life-cycle cost of a dual-mode multiple unit trainset compared to a locomotive-hauled trainset?

    Right off the top of my head, I can think of a few problems with a DMMU/EDMU...
    They are far more complex with electric and diesel equipment squeezed into the car body envelope.
    They must weigh a lot more than a regular trainset or a pure EMU or DMU.
    If one of the engines goes down, which seems common with Amtrak's maintenance practices, the whole trainset is out of service.
    Engines need regular overhauls, so when the car is in the shop, it's out of service, even if it's possible to just swap out the engine.
    So with all of that in mind, what is the benefit of a DMMU/EDMU versus a Railjet/Brightline style locomotive-hauled trainset?
     
  25. Dec 12, 2019 #225

    NeueAmtrakCalifornia

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    Multiple units offer better acceleration and traction (and also place less wear and tear on the tracks) compared to traditional locomotive-hauled trains. This makes sense for the Northeast Regional due to the many stops it makes.

    If diesels would make things too complex then Amtrak can replace the diesel with battery (which can be charged by the overhead wires) and it would be an EBMU

    Also, Amtrak has looked into using EDMUs for several of its NEC trains (they also looked into using the ALP45-DP electro-diesel locomotive but concluded that it's too slow and heavy).[​IMG]
    Alon Levy explains EMUs vs locomotives better
    [​IMG]
     

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