Other LD trains in jeopardy of re-routes

[saxman]

The empire builder due to flooding in devils lake each year getting worse and worse.

Might be rerouted temporarily next summer for construction but the tracks are being raised higher than the natural overflow of the lake, so that route should be safe.

Might be rumor, but I heard BNSF wants to start using the Devils Lake sub again for some extra capacity with the oil boom going on in ND right now.

 

[zephyr17]

The empire builder due to flooding in devils lake each year getting worse and worse.

Might be rerouted temporarily next summer for construction but the tracks are being raised higher than the natural overflow of the lake, so that route should be safe.

Might be rumor, but I heard BNSF wants to start using the Devils Lake sub again for some extra capacity with the oil boom going on in ND right now.

Well, BNSF pitched in on the tracks being raised (seem to recall they agreed to fund it with Amtrak, State of ND and BNSF each funding 1/3 of the cost). If they didn't see a use for it, they wouldn't have contributed.

 

[tubaia]

Actually, there are a couple of minor reroutes of the Coast Starlight (and Cascades) currently under construction:

• The Point Defiance Bypass, which will shorten the rail distance between Tacoma and Olympia, but which will end the trains' running along south Puget Sound and under the Tacoma Narrows Bridge, and
• A similar, if less drastic, reroute in Vancouver, WA.

Neither of them will improve connections to Oklahoma

that's too bad. i always look forward to running by that part of the sound and going under the bridge

That's my feeling too. It won't save very much time, and hurt the scenic aspect of the route. The new tracks are also being built for the local Sounder commuter trains, but many locals in Lakewood don't want the faster Amtrak trains running through their area. I say they should see about keeping Amtrak on the current route, and perhaps in exchange, allow some of the slower freight trains to move over to the new route, relieving some of the traffic from the more scenic route.

 

[George Harris]

That's my feeling too. It won't save very much time, and hurt the scenic aspect of the route. The new tracks are also being built for the local Sounder commuter trains, but many locals in Lakewood don't want the faster Amtrak trains running through their area. I say they should see about keeping Amtrak on the current route, and perhaps in exchange, allow some of the slower freight trains to move over to the new route, relieving some of the traffic from the more scenic route.

It saves about 5 miles distance which should give it at least that many minutes of time saving. The "many locals in Lakewood" represents the typical NIMBY response to anything anywhere, so it can't be taken as there being anything really wrong with the project. Almost all of the project is on an existing railroad alignment, and much of that is very close to I-5.

Freight is not going to move and would be unlikey to anyway, as that 5 mile saving in distance is at the cost of about 250 feet additional rise and equal fall in elevation that hte line around the point does not have.

 

[Trogdor]

The only real problem with the Lakewood routing is they're spending a ton of money to build a single-track railroad. That's going to bite them in the butt if they ever want to expand service.

 

[AlanB]

They may start freezing in the middle of perfectly good running and in case of minor incidents you'll have to restart the train and wait for it to boot up

Actually, this already happens on Amtrak. There are many occasions where they have to restart things and wait for it boot back up so that they can run the engines. And certain failures on the Acela power cars actually require a technician with a laptop to drive to wherever the train stopped at in order to reboot things.

 

[zephyr17]

They may start freezing in the middle of perfectly good running and in case of minor incidents you'll have to restart the train and wait for it to boot up

Actually, this already happens on Amtrak. There are many occasions where they have to restart things and wait for it boot back up so that they can run the engines. And certain failures on the Acela power cars actually require a technician with a laptop to drive to wherever the train stopped at in order to reboot things.

Well, P42s do it and not infrequently. Don't know if they ever require a tech to come out and reboot it (kind of hard to do in the middle of Montana, anyway).

 

[trainviews]

No - different Crescents...

AFAIK The NS corridor runs down the Shenandoah Valley to Roanoke and into Tennessee, not going to Atlanta at all.

The NS Crescent corridor includes both the route through Roanoke and into Tennessee and the route from Manassas to Atlanta to Birmingham. Link to a NS map of the Crescent corridor.

The (Amtrak) Crescent route is probably among the least in "jeopardy" of the LD trains. Portions of the route in VA and NC are getting upgrades for passenger trains for that matter.

VRE uses the AF Interlocking (south/east of Alexandria station) to Manassas section and pays for track maintenance projects. There is a VA funded double track project around Nokesville, south of Manassas, that will fill in a ~7 mile single track section. Unfortunately that project got postponed several years because of cost overruns on the Norfolk service extension. It is possible that NS would ask VA to fund additional upgrades to the Manassas to Lynchburg section to support additional Regional trains to Lynchburg with future extensions to Roanoke.

The HSIPR grants to NC for the Piedmont corridor will fully double track the section from Greensboro to Charlotte and close many of the grade crossings. Charlotte is slated to get a new station, although when is an open question. Add in a possible or probable new station in Atlanta in the next few years. These improvements should trim Crescent trip times between WAS and ATL and boost the ridership base.

Thanks for the correction - I missed that NS actually counted both lines as Crescent corridor. But back to the Amtrak Crescent and the upgrades: NS is putting a lot of money into upgrading the Shenandoah line, which will have no effect on passenger trains, as none currently run that way. The upgrades on the current Atlanta line via Lynchburg and Charlotte are all HSIPR grants aimed at passenger service, and not a windfall of freight upgrades benefitting passenger trains.

 

[Nathanael]

I’m reading with great interest here and in the general media about the Southwest Chief’s possible re-route. Are there any other LD routes (or sections thereof) in dire jeopardy of being re-routed?

No.

One that seemed to recently escape a reroute is the Empire Builder around Devil’s Lake.

Yep. MSP station should be moving sometime next year, but apart from that, no changes.

Another might (possibly?) be the Cardinal although I don’t know if there are any viable alternate tracks.

Currently, it looks like VA and WV will upgrade the Buckingham Branch to keep it going. Nobody's suggested a viable alternate route. A shorter connection to NS at Charlottesville has also been proposed (would save 15 minutes, IIRC) but nobody's seriously developing the proposal.

Are the Zephyr or Coast Starlight in any danger of being re-routed off their respective routes through the Colorado mountains or along the California coastline?

The Zephyr intermittently reroutes between Denver and Salt Lake when there's track construction, but is in no danger of being rerouted permanently.

The Coast Starlight is certainly not going to be significantly rerouted; there are no viable alternative routes (the freights *really* don't want it on the San Joaquin route).

Here are the reroutes and potential reroutes I know about (looking at all trains, not just LDs). First, the ones which involve station changes.

* The Vermonter WILL be rerouted through Massachusetts; losing Amherst, gaining Holyoke and Northampton.

* As others have mentioned, the Cascades and Coast Starlight will be rerouted between Tacoma and Olympia to a faster inland route through Lakewood. This will also mean relocation of the Tacoma station to the Sounder station. Yes, the right-of-way is designed for double track service, although it will not initially be double tracked; this makes it better for future service than the permanently-single-tracked tunnels by the waterfront.

* There are serious proposals to redirect the Sunset Limited within the LA metro area to follow the Southwest Chief (losing Pomona, gaining Fullerton), after the Colton Crossing flyover work is finished.

* Springfield, IL is probably going to have the tracks and station moved to 10th St; still unfunded so far

* There are speculative proposals to redirect the Ethan Allen Express through southern Vermont instead of New York, but they keep not being funded.

* There are serious, but unfunded, proposals to reroute all trains to Richmond through Richmond Street Station

* There are serious, but unfunded, proposals to reroute all the Michigan trains between roughly Michigan City and Chicago -- but nobody's settled on a single route, so I don't expect this to happen any time soon. This would affect one station at most (Hammond-Whiting).

Next, the ones which do not involve station changes:

* There is a serious, but unfunded, proposal to reroute the CONO/Illini/Saluki within Chicago, as part of CREATE (no station changes)

* There are multiple proposals for rerouting of the Texas Eagle/Lincoln Service between Joliet and Chicago, and between Alton and St. Louis (unfunded, no station changes).

* There is a funded proposal to reroute the Texas Eagle between Dallas and Fort Worth (no station changes) which is being held up by negotiations over insurance.

 

[Nathanael]

* There are serious, but unfunded, proposals to reroute all trains to Richmond through Richmond Street Station

That's Richmond _Main_ Street Station, obviously

 

[Nathanael]

As for RVM to Centralia, that is only a part of the Richmond Main Street to Raleigh section of the SE HSR.

It's now also a part of the Norfolk Service EIS. Yes, one train a day is coming even without Main Street access, but the recommendation is to build Acca Yard Bypass and the rest of the route to RVM, and the RVM to Centralia route, for more trains per day to Norfolk.

Now that it's part of two separate projects it may be more likely to get done. I have no doubt that if the Richmond city government pushed, that would help.

 

[EMDF9A]

* As others have mentioned, the Cascades and Coast Starlight will be rerouted between Tacoma and Olympia to a faster inland route through Lakewood. This will also mean relocation of the Tacoma station to the Sounder station. Yes, the right-of-way is designed for double track service, although it will not initially be double tracked; this makes it better for future service than the permanently-single-tracked tunnels by the waterfront.

Has it been confirmed that they will be moving the Coast Starlight to the Lakewood line? Three years ago the Trails & Rails guides were told that was what would happen, then last year we were told that AMTRAK re-thought that decision and negotiated with BNSF to keep the Starlight on the Point Defiance line, because it is such a scenic portion of the trip and would have a negative impact on tourist riders.

 

[Nathanael]

Has it been confirmed that they will be moving the Coast Starlight to the Lakewood line? Three years ago the Trails & Rails guides were told that was what would happen, then last year we were told that AMTRAK re-thought that decision and negotiated with BNSF to keep the Starlight on the Point Defiance line, because it is such a scenic portion of the trip and would have a negative impact on tourist riders.

Nothing is confirmed until it happens. However, if the Coast Starlight stayed on the Point Defiance Line, either

(1) Amtrak would have to *operate two stations in Tacoma*, which I think is implausible in the extreme and frankly a waste of money for Amtrak,

or

(2) the Coast Starlight would have to bypass Tacoma Station entirely. Well, I guess that would speed the train up.

Remember that the Tacoma Dome / Freighthouse Square station is *only* on the new Lakewood route, and the existing Tacoma station is *only* on the old Point Defiance Route.

I think it is much more likely that the Coast Starlight will move onto the route which allows it to both go faster and serve Freighthouse Square. I would expect that Amtrak would want to retain rights to run on the Point Defiance line in case of disruptions on the Lakewood line, of course.

What you heard last year may also have been an interim thing. The Point Defiance Bypass was originally scheduled for sometime in the past, and has been delayed repeatedly, and nobody knows for sure when it's actually going to be done. Amtrak may have had to renegotiate its contract with BNSF while it's waiting for the endlessly-delayed Point Defiance Bypass to actually be finished.