Northwest mudslide season begins

[CHamilton]

I sure hope that the passengers being bustituted from Everett to Seattle didn't end up on this bus.

 

[bbecker258]

If the Bellingham coal trains are going through Stevens, there would not be a need to travel along the line in question...

Stevens is close to its limit of trains right now. I think I remember reading somewhere that that number is 27 based on the time it takes to clear the tunnel of exhaust gasses. Because Stevens is a mountain grade, they will try to reduce heavy tonnage trains like coal drags on this line. Although the former NP line over Stampede could handle the traffic, its 2.2% grade is steeper than Stevens. Current coal trains travel the Columbia Gorge former SP&S line and then north on the former NP Portland/Seattle line.

Coal trains are a reality now. They just pass through Washington on their way to Tsswwassen BC to a large trans-loading terminal there. The question isnt WILL there be coal trains on this line but whether or not they will continue on toward BC or use a terminal to be constructed in Washington (and all the jobs that brings) The Chinese and Koreans WILL buy coal. The mine owners WILL sell it to them. BNSF WILL transport it. It WILL travel these lines through Seattle. Its just a matter of whether the people of Washington are not so short sighted as to not take advantage of the inevitable.

Hear, Hear. Your comment is so salient. Thank you for your clear understanding. I am hoping that BNSF and WDOT will take the issue of slides seriously. I ride the Cascades as I am a wheelchair user, it's just more comfortable. Right now I am waiting for status of 513, tomorrow. If I have to travel by bus, i'll cancel and use BOLT. Faster, wi-fi, cheaper. BUT rail is preferred by far.

 

[CHamilton]

Woo hoo! Guess the mud has frozen in the 21-degree temps. See you on 513, bbecker!

Amtrak Cascades ‏@Amtrak_CascadesCascades service from Seattle to Vancouver BC restored after mudslide. Residual delays expected.

 

[CHamilton]

At King Street Station waiting for 513. Passengers from 7 arrived a few minutes ago, and they were very happy not to be on a bus.

 

[TrackWalker]

Crews work to clear a mudslide off the tracks Thursday morning between Seattle and Everett.

This is "The Milepost" (MP 31) where we park and fuel our machinery,

 

[Phil S]

Crews work to clear a mudslide off the tracks Thursday morning between Seattle and Everett.

This is "The Milepost" (MP 31) where we park and fuel our machinery,

Is there a cliff there? Doesn;t look like it, though the photo is awful.

 

[EMDF9A]

Crews work to clear a mudslide off the tracks Thursday morning between Seattle and Everett.

This is "The Milepost" (MP 31) where we park and fuel our machinery,

Is there a cliff there? Doesn;t look like it, though the photo is awful.

The tracks run between the water and a hillside from Ballard (Golden Gardens) all the way to Everett (30 some miles). Some are steeper than others,and yes there are several areas that could be considered a cliffs.

 

[CHamilton]

[bNSF] says engineers...[reopened the Seattle-Everett line]...in what they hope is a long-term clearing of the lines....

Melonas says crews are using the dry spell to continue working on short-term remedies, such as ditching and cutting trees that are leaning. He says BNSF is considering enhancing drainage along the line near Everett later on.

 

[CHamilton]

All Aboard Washington posted an article (PDF) about one engineering solution that was used to avoid mudslides. It was added along the BNSF mainline near Castle Rock, WA, in 2000.

Note, however, that a geologist who saw the original article says that the solution would not work for the slide areas between Seattle and Everett.

Speaking as a geologist who has been involved with the design of similar slope protection in Montana, this specific application will not do much to stabilize the inherent slope instability problems between Seattle and Everett.


The slide-prone slopes along Puget Sound generally share common attributes:
1. a very low permeability clay/silt layer close to sea level (the Lawton Clay)
2. a thick permeable sand sequence piled 100 or more feet thick above the clay layer (glacial outwash sands from the last Ice Age).

Groundwater infiltrates from many locations inland from the beach, migrates downward and pools on top of the clay layer. The water then migrates toward the beach, which is the discharge point to surface water. This exerts a subtle outward pressure along the base of the sand layer. After heavy rains, the water table rises, and more groundwater flows toward the Sound. This increases the lateral pressure on the sand, and promotes caving of the slope. Armoring the face of the slope will not alter this fundamental destabilizing relationship.

There are other approaches, such as drilling horizontal wells into the sand layer just above the clay layer, thereby promoting quicker exit of the groundwater through pipes and reducing the lateral pressure on the face of the cliff. But it takes money, willingness of landowners to allow it on their property, and willingness of regulatory agencies to take a realistic attitude toward solving a slope stability problem rather than finding supposed environmental reasons to oppose it.

 

[CHamilton]

From WSDOT. Is it just me, or is the content level of this press release very low?

Rail partners explore mudslide causes, solutions

OLYMPIA – Four rail partners involved in service and safety in the corridor between Seattle and Everett are putting a new focus on understanding the root causes and potential solutions to mudslides that resulted in a record number of Amtrak Cascades and Sounder passenger-service disruptions this winter.

While preventative maintenance continues, the Washington State Department of Transportation and its rail partners – BNSF Railway, Sound Transit and Amtrak – will take a broader look at the issue and work to preserve the rail line between Seattle and Everett, a corridor essential for freight, daily commuters and intercity travel.
...
As the owner of the rail line, BNSF Railway temporarily suspends passenger service to ensure safety when a mudslide occurs or a high-level threat of a mudslide exists. Amtrak and Sound Transit provide alternate transportation on service impacted by mudslides.
...
WSDOT and BNSF will continue working together to reduce the near-term potential for mudslides through strategies already in use, including more frequent preventative maintenance, conducting immediate repair and stabilization work on slopes involved in slides, improving drainage, deepening ditches next to the tracks, and adding water-retention areas.

WSDOT and BNSF are also focusing on long-term engineering and design work and determining appropriate slide-prevention solutions. Some of the potential improvements are in design, with construction to start later in 2013, but they represent only a small part of the significant investments needed to virtually eliminate mudslides. WSDOT will also continue to work with its corridor partners to identify and pursue state and federal funding, with BNSF support, for long-term stabilization projects.

 

[CHamilton]

Slippery slopes: Can we mudproof Northwest rail?

In the last few months, mudslides have derailed the region's train service and ridership. More than 350 runs have been cancelled or truncated. When will WSDOT fix the problem? And how?

It's mudslide time again. The gooey stuff has been burying rail lines on an all too regular basis.

Every weekday, eight Sounder and six Amtrak trains run the Seattle-Everett gauntlet, the worst though hardly the only slide-prone section of the Vancouver, B.C.-to-Eugene, Oregon passenger rail corridor. Burlington Northern (BNSF) imposes a 48-hour moratorium on passenger traffic whenever the mud hits the tracks. As a result, 92 Amtrak Cascades trains between Seattle and Vancouver have been cancelled or truncated, as of December 31, compared to 26 during the same period last year. Sound Transit riders are singing the blues too, over a record 160 cancellations of the Everett-Seattle Sounder trains since October 1. That’s up substantially from an average of 34 cancellations in each of the entire four previous winters.

The unpopular suspensions of service are putting pressure on the state to find solutions. “If a ferry were down and affected things as much, there would be a tremendous uproar in Olympia and something would be happening,” said Loren Herringstad, president of the All Aboard Washington rail-passenger advocacy group.

Some relief is out there, at least in the form of dollars. Washington’s Department of Transportation (WSDOT) is sitting on $16.1 million in federal money that is earmarked to stabilize the region’s slippery slopes. The big questions are when will WSDOT start spending it? And on what?

Ron Pate, operations manager at WSDOT's Rail Office, blames this winter's mudslide spike on “an extreme amount of rain in a short time.” As of last week, Seattle had gotten 24.98 inches of rain since October 1—a 24 percent increase over the same period during the preceding four winters. With ever-increasing development around the region much of that rainfall is running off rather than soaking into the ground. The runoff undermines the bluffs above the tracks.

The state can’t control rainfall totals, but “fixing uncontrolled water runoff problems may provide some high benefit,” says Pate, adding that “in one case around Everett we found a broken water pipe that wiped out part of the slope.” Herrigstad believes that “property owners must be involved in the solution.“

 

[CHamilton]

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/seattle-everett-passenger-train-services-disrupted/nWRdr/Seattle-Everett passenger train services disrupted due to mudslide
http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/seattle-everett-passenger-train-services-disrupted/nWRdr/


SEATTLE — Tracks used by Amtrak Cascades, Empire Builder and Sounder Northline trains between Seattle and Everett have been temporarily closed due to a mudslide.







Alternate transportation between Seattle and Everett or Vancouver, B.C., will be provided







A 48-hour moratorium period on passenger trains took effect Sunday until Tuesday afternoon, Feb. 19, which was imposed by Burlington Northern Santa Fe.

 

[Bob Dylan]

:help: Damn, Hope its Open by Friday 2/22 since I'm Scheduled on 510 to VAC, I've Paid my Dues on I5 too Many Times, see if you can Arrange for the Sun Charlie! :hi:

 

[CHamilton]

The weather forecast is not too bad, so if nothing else happens, 510 should be running by Wednesday morning. We'll be doing an anti-rain dance for you.

 

[George Harris]

All Aboard Washington posted an article (PDF) about one engineering solution that was used to avoid mudslides. It was added along the BNSF mainline near Castle Rock, WA, in 2000.
Note, however, that a geologist who saw the original article says that the solution would not work for the slide areas between Seattle and Everett.

Speaking as a geologist who has been involved with the design of similar slope protection in Montana, this specific application will not do much to stabilize the inherent slope instability problems between Seattle and Everett.

The slide-prone slopes along Puget Sound generally share common attributes:

1. a very low permeability clay/silt layer close to sea level (the Lawton Clay)

2. a thick permeable sand sequence piled 100 or more feet thick above the clay layer (glacial outwash sands from the last Ice Age).

Groundwater infiltrates from many locations inland from the beach, migrates downward and pools on top of the clay layer. The water then migrates toward the beach, which is the discharge point to surface water. This exerts a subtle outward pressure along the base of the sand layer. After heavy rains, the water table rises, and more groundwater flows toward the Sound. This increases the lateral pressure on the sand, and promotes caving of the slope. Armoring the face of the slope will not alter this fundamental destabilizing relationship.

There are other approaches, such as drilling horizontal wells into the sand layer just above the clay layer, thereby promoting quicker exit of the groundwater through pipes and reducing the lateral pressure on the face of the cliff. But it takes money, willingness of landowners to allow it on their property, and willingness of regulatory agencies to take a realistic attitude toward solving a slope stability problem rather than finding supposed environmental reasons to oppose it.

If the property owners understand anything of this, they should be screaming for the horizontal drilling to be done under their land.

 

[CHamilton]

We're having "The Most Boring Winter in Seattle History"...except when it comes to mudslides.

 

[Phil S]

CH and others - Thanks. The geologist's report really helps explain the problem. And since the mudslides and this thread seem to be immortal let me fill you in on my own lack of progress in comprehending this mess:

A month or so ago, I promised to write to Melanie Coon, info officer for the rail part of WDOT, to try to find out just what WDOT was planning to do. I did and what followed was one of the most unproductive and at times even unpleasant exchanges I have ever had with any govt agency. The final result was zero willingness to supply any information beyond the zero information on their web page. She first insisted that there were no documents describing the planned mud-slide work. I then asked about the FRA proposal by which they got the funding and she said that it was part of large multi-item FRA proposal following the rejection of FRA funds by you-all-know-which governors. According to Melanie, the proposal contained only a few pages relevant to the mudslide work. To get a copy I'd have to file a formal "Request for Document" and pay 50c/page or some such for the entire document. All of this required my sending at least 2 and often 3 e-mails to her before she even responded.

I think my mistake may have been to mention drainage from land-owners adjacent to the cliffs in my first e-mail. I wonder if WDOT is perhaps terrified that the land-owners might think that THEY might be required to foot even some of the bill for proper water drainage.

I agree that the property owners should be screaming for any solution that doesn't cost them any money. And I don't think getting them to understand this is going to be helped by withholding info from the public.

 

[KrazyKoala]

And this is why the #8 has not left yet SEA>CHI?

 

[Phil S]

And this is why the #8 has not left yet SEA>CHI?

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,2998057 suggests "yes".

 

[tomfuller]

Have any of the people who are studying the problem heard of gabions? http://www.gabions.net/

The state environmental agency that I worked for for over 35 years used them effectively in many places.

 

[Phil S]

Have any of the people who are studying the problem heard of gabions? http://www.gabions.net/The state environmental agency that I worked for for over 35 years used them effectively in many places.

Tom - Nobody who posts here seems to be able to find out much of anything about what's planned. But the geologist report posted earlier says that armoring the cliffs won't work and I'd see gabions as a form of armoring. I think that either the water needs to be diverted at its source, to storm drains that empty elsewhere, or run in huge culverts down the cliffs, under the tracks, and out into the ocean. Or just possibly, driving pipes in horizontally along the top of the impermeable zone might allow the water to be drained faster and in a controlled way (to avoid erosion). Inserting horizontal drain pipes can be tricky, however.

 

[anir dendroica]

I wonder what density and length of horizontal drains would be required?

Given that the average modern oil well involves two miles of vertical drilling through solid rock and a further two miles of horizontal drilling at 10,000 foot depth, I have to assume this project is pretty easy from a technical perspective. I wonder if a "mineral rights" provision (subsurface drilling with no significant impact on the surface) could be used to move the project forward without having to deal too much with landowners?

Mark

 

[CHamilton]

Good news for Jim...

Passenger train service resumes north of Seattle

Passenger train service has resumed north of Seattle, following yet another mudslide.

BNSF spokesman Gus Melonas says service was suspended for 48 hours following a slide that covered the tracks with three feet of mud and debris in Everett on Sunday, but the tracks were back open for passenger service at 4 p.m. Tuesday.

 

[George Harris]

I wonder what density and length of horizontal drains would be required?
Given that the average modern oil well involves two miles of vertical drilling through solid rock and a further two miles of horizontal drilling at 10,000 foot depth, I have to assume this project is pretty easy from a technical perspective. I wonder if a "mineral rights" provision (subsurface drilling with no significant impact on the surface) could be used to move the project forward without having to deal too much with landowners?

Mark

the drilling is just the small matter of cost. Teh theory behind teh oil well is that the oil out of the well can be sold for enough to pay for the well. Not happening for side hill drilling to drain water.

"Mineral rights' are not something that automatically allows someone to do somthing under your property. In most places, unless they have been sold property ownership extends to the center of the earth in thoery, at least.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Good news for Jim...

Passenger train service resumes north of Seattle

Passenger train service has resumed north of Seattle, following yet another mudslide.

BNSF spokesman Gus Melonas says service was suspended for 48 hours following a slide that covered the tracks with three feet of mud and debris in Everett on Sunday, but the tracks were back open for passenger service at 4 p.m. Tuesday.

Fingers Crossed for Friday!