No more charters & special moves: 3/28/18 Memo fr Anderson

[Thirdrail7]

One of the main things left out (aside from the fact that this isn't Canada and there are different regulations) is the aforementioned blue flag rules. If mechanical is involved, things take time and that is due to federal regulations governing their movement between equipment...particularly if the moves are made on a main track.

Here is an example from the The Engine Switcharoo thread.

Can't attach and detach the power cables while the train is energized, so the process would be more like.

1. Show up
2. Power down.
3. Detach locomotives.
4. Attach ground power while locomotive drives away.
5. When new locomotive arrives, power down and disconnect ground power.
6. Attach new locomotives.
7. Restore power.

Now you've added time to the evolution and still have two different outages while the work is done. Not worth it.

Scenerio for ground Power

1.Show up as train arrives,

2.Call K Tower to lock up switches for Blue Flag Protection

3. When confirmed put Blue lights in track front and rear.

4.Put Blue light in engine cab

5..Power Off

6. Detach locomotives cables, turn off air supplies

7.. call K tower and remove blue flag protection.

8. Take blue lights off track

9. Take blue light off engine

10. Turn off overhead lights

11. uncouple locomotive

12. wait for locomotive to clear track and switches

13. Call K Tower to lock up switches for Blue Flag Protection

14. When confirmed place blue light in track in front and rear.

15. Turn on Blue overhead lights

16. Attach Ground power cables at one end of consist

17. Loop 480 cables at other end of consist

18. Turn on Ground Power

19. Call K Tower give up Blue Flag Protection

20. Remove Blue lights from track

21.Turn off overhead lights.

21. Diesel Locomotive arrives

22. Couple up locomotive

23. Call K Tower to lock up switches for Blue Flag Protection

24. Put Blue lights in track front and rear. Put Blue light on engine

25. Turn on Blue overhead lights

26. Turn off Ground power

27. Detach Ground power cables

28. attach cables, brake hoses and main recseviour air to locomotive

29. Do brake test

30. Call K tower and give up Blue Flag Protection,

31. blue take lights out of track

32. turn off overhead blue lights

33. remove bue light from engine cab

33. Train can leave

Putting the train on ground power will likely lengthen the time the train is without power!

So that's 1 thing that takes some time....

That is very accurate. Now there are some other useless things we have to do to you forgot. Why Amtrak has to do a brake test when they back up before coupling up. Especially when the train already has proven over the course of miles it has functional brakes.

Actually, they aren't typically testing the brakes. They are testing the back up hose/valve or the emergency valve to make sure if an emergency occurs, the train can be stopped A.S.A.P. Just because the brakes worked from the engine doesn't necessarily mean that they will work from another valve at the opposite end of the train. That is why it is a federal rule that not only will brake tests be performed when controlling ends change, a running test must be performed.

Debris has been known to fly up and partially close angle cocks which actually led to the back up hose/ valve or emergency valve test rule. The rule was also amended to test it where the back up move will begin. Otherwise, when you back up, something drives in front of you and when you place the train in emergency....and it doesn't dump, you aren't surprised.

But, I bet you didn't think of that.

So more of a Amtrak procedural/policy delay or equipment too old(Amtrak equipment) that it takes too much time? When they coupled and decoupled the LRC cars on ViaRail, I was excepting 30+ minutes because of experience on Amtrak, but after like less than a minute of power outage, we were on our way.

Replace "K Tower" with the appropriate dispatcher and you have the basic procedures for mechanical working on a train outside of a r.i.p track, car servicing and/or engine repair track.

That's because of how incompetent some switch crews are. I'm not saying all are incompetent but there are quite a few that are.

Perhaps you should use the word inexperienced. There are crews that rarely have to switch cars or get in between the equipment. That is because they work in areas without yards or work through movements. Therefore, when they finally comes time to switch cars or there is an emergency, they may have to apply rules and procedures that they may not have used in the field for years. So, they take their time.

If you don't use it, you lose it and that assumes you had it to begin with. Do you remember every single driving regulation?

 

[Seaboard92]

I wasn't referring to HUN for the switch crew comment. PDX is pretty bad but I give them credit they don't build trains there regularly. But WAS incredibly slow coming in last week on 50 took us to Ivy city for two hours. It would have been faster to leave us on 26 and then pull the consist out. And grab the other switch crew and throw us over on thirty.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I wasn't referring to HUN for the switch crew comment. PDX is pretty bad but I give them credit they don't build trains there regularly. But WAS incredibly slow coming in last week on 50 took us to Ivy city for two hours. It would have been faster to leave us on 26 and then pull the consist out. And grab the other switch crew and throw us over on thirty.

And how do you know there was an additional switch crew available to make this move? You DO realize the NEC altered their manpower (to save money) and abolished numerous yard crews from BOS-WAS, right? WTC lost 13 switching crews and all of their utility employees over the last year. If a few late trains show up at the same time, regular trains can take a hit. The NYT district lost so many, the new boss realized had to bring some back so the could respond during a disruption. PHL had the same issue and added an additional crew. NHV was down to one.

Again, you talk about things with a only a peripheral understanding and this probably why they'd rather not have private cars around. They barely have enough manpower to switch the train based upon things being on time...which is rarely the case.

Pretty soon, they'll be back to fixed consists.

 

[Seaboard92]

There was someone else running around actually. I'm not looking forward to the fixed consists.

 

[Acela150]

Richard Anderson has screwed the pooch.. And ticked off the entire railfanning community. The Pennsylvania Railroad Technical Society had planned a trip with exclusively PV and Bennett Levin's E8's. To and From Altoona. That trip is now cancelled. #FireRichardAnderson

http://www.prrths.com/conventions/Cancelled_trip_letter.pdf

 

[jis]

Communications connector. Think PA system.

Do any privates have those? I've never heard the LSA when riding in a private. Thankfully! Ha.

Similar to the MU connector. They would typically be just pass-through, if they are there.

 

[Thirdrail7]

Richard Anderson has screwed the pooch.. And ticked off the entire railfanning community. The Pennsylvania Railroad Technical Society had planned a trip with exclusively PV and Bennett Levin's E8's. To and From Altoona. That trip is now cancelled. #FireRichardAnderson

http://www.prrths.com/conventions/Cancelled_trip_letter.pdf

The link isn't working.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

"Actually, they aren't typically testing the brakes. They are testing the back up hose/valve or the emergency valve to make sure if an emergency occurs, the train can be stopped A.S.A.P."

Ah yes!!! I remember hearing the air dump whenever I ride the Carbondale trains before the back up move.

On the shortline where I worked, we just tapped the back up whistle to make sure it had air.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Communications connector. Think PA system.

Do any privates have those? I've never heard the LSA when riding in a private. Thankfully! Ha.

Similar to the MU connector. They would typically be just pass-through, if they are there.

Wait... Is it a PA line... Or MU line?

Do privates typically have either?

 

[jis]

Communications connector. Think PA system.

Do any privates have those? I've never heard the LSA when riding in a private. Thankfully! Ha.

Similar to the MU connector. They would typically be just pass-through, if they are there.

Wait... Is it a PA line... Or MU line?

Do privates typically have either?

I was thinking MU line, but I think it is called the Comm Line. Someone like Thirdrail may be able to provide the right terminology.

Seaboard mentioned that he know several PV that have pass throughs when this was brought up elsewhere.

 

[Thirdrail7]

www.prrths.com/conventions/Cancelled_trip_letter.pdf

To the members of the PRR T&HS, and all the riders on the
Pennsylvania Inspection Trip to Altoona.
It is with deepest regret and sorrow to inform all that despite the
tremendous effort on the part of Bennett Levin, who I am forever
grateful, Amtrak has decided not to honor the agreement that we
already had with them.
I will contact every rider who paid to ride this train by phone, and
return all funds that were sent to the society for the trip.
A huge amount of time, money and effort has been spent putting this
trip together on the part of Mr Levin, the PRR T&HS, and myself. This
is definitely not the last that will be said about all of this, and my
sincere apologies to those who made their plans and reservations to
be a part of our 50th annual meeting celebration, and will not be
attending due to the trip cancellation, especially those from outside
the US. I hope that even though this train will not be running, you still
may consider coming to Altoona to experience the railroad history out
there, along with what our society has planned for those 4 days.
Thank you,
Steve Staffieri
Pres PRR T&HS

Oooph. "This is definitely not the last that will be said about all of this" doesn't sound good. It isn't the railfan community I'd be concerned about ticking off. I'd be concerned about ticking off the Altoona representatives and the Pennsylvania legislature. Impacting their economies is a recipe for retaliation.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Gotcha... I could see privates needing to have an MU line installed.

That moves to another question... Are MU lines always hooked up on Amtrak trains, just in case they are needed? Obviously they aren't typically used on a LD train.

 

[jis]

I don't believe all Amtrak LD cars are even equipped with MU lines. I know they were not hooked up on the Silver Meteor last Saturday. Again Thirdrail can probably provide facts rather than anecdotes.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I don't believe all Amtrak LD cars are even equipped with MU lines. I know they were not hooked up on the Silver Meteor last Saturday. Again Thirdrail can probably provide facts rather than anecdotes.

Let me help you out. Typically, when adding equipment, you'll make the following connections.

Air system:

Brake pipe

Main reservoir

Electrical system:

480 volt cables (4 cables-typically used for HEP and trainline power supply)

Communication cable(1 cable-typically for communication systems, on board detection systems, doors and other low voltage systems)

On push pull equipment

All of the above plus the propulsion cable that will travel the length of the train.

MU cables are typically used between two engines.

 

[jis]

Thirdrail, Thanks! I am never sure about the exact terminology, since it is far removed from day to day things that I do.

 

[neroden]

The phrase "decided not to honor the agreement that we already had with them" is a pretty nasty warning sign. If correct, well, it's one thing to refuse deals in the future, it's another to cancel deals already made; that causes lawsuits for damages. Politicians ain't gonna be happy either.

I am beginning to think Mr. Anderson is an idiot. I could make better decisions than this, even if I had essentially the same agenda.

 

[Seaboard92]

Some PVs have a pass thru MU. The one I'm currently working (like right now) has a pass thru MU. And our sister car were installing it next month.

We took fifteen minutes to add it today but only five minutes late at the next stop. We didn't delay the train to serious. Should be ontime by Next station

 

[Thirdrail7]

. Politicians ain't gonna be happy either.

This is a concern...and long after he is gone, we'll still have to deal with the fallout.

 

[Seaboard92]

The only reason New River is likely to run this year will be because they successfully got congress involved. And I highly recommend other operators especially Leavenworth Snow Train to consider knowing what I know they would lose 50k at the current rate.

 

[CHvision]

Sad to say, here's the quote:

"From the Greatness of Conductor Bill Hatrick of LA Rail confirming there will be no stay of execution ~ Regardless of train crew jobs, private car owners relying on riders & passengers already booked, we're done for the foreseeable future."

 

[TinCan782]

Sad to say, here's the quote:

"From the Greatness of Conductor Bill Hatrick of LA Rail confirming there will be no stay of execution ~ Regardless of train crew jobs, private car owners relying on riders & passengers already booked, we're done for the foreseeable future."

I know Bill and Debbie. This was their livelihood, a family business of which they were so enthusiastic and passionate about. They and everyone I've met at LA Rail are great people to ride with ... "regular" people...not the elite that PV owners are often painted to be. This is so sad for them.

 

[Seaboard92]

Sad to say, here's the quote:

"From the Greatness of Conductor Bill Hatrick of LA Rail confirming there will be no stay of execution ~ Regardless of train crew jobs, private car owners relying on riders & passengers already booked, we're done for the foreseeable future."

I know Bill and Debbie. This was their livelihood, a family business of which they were so enthusiastic and passionate about. They and everyone I've met at LA Rail are great people to ride with ... "regular" people...not the elite that PV owners are often painted to be. This is so sad for them.

I know it's incredibly sad because it is their entire livelihood. And bill is such an amazing man. On trips I've worked with his car in the consist. He went way out of his way to punch every kids ticket in the entire thirty car consist. Not just his, but every car. He's such an amazing person. Honestly I'm upset about my job as well. But not as upset as I am as Bill's livelihood.

 

[jis]

I don't believe all Amtrak LD cars are even equipped with MU lines. I know they were not hooked up on the Silver Meteor last Saturday. Again Thirdrail can probably provide facts rather than anecdotes.

Let me help you out. Typically, when adding equipment, you'll make the following connections.

Air system:

Brake pipe

Main reservoir

Electrical system:

480 volt cables (4 cables-typically used for HEP and trainline power supply)

Communication cable(1 cable-typically for communication systems, on board detection systems, doors and other low voltage systems)

On push pull equipment

All of the above plus the propulsion cable that will travel the length of the train.

MU cables are typically used between two engines.

Thirdrail, one thing I have been wondering about is that since there is reliable wireless remote control standards like Locotrol available, why is that not used? Is it because there are additional control signals that Locotrol cannot carry, that are carried on the Propulsion Line? Thanks.

Mods: Perhaps this subthread deserves its own thread. Please do as you see fit.

 

[seat38a]

I remember watching a show about the ringling brothers circus train and how it was pulled by freight locomotives. So did they have special insurance for the train which allowed it to be pulled by freight loco instead of Amtrak?

 

[railiner]

The phrase "decided not to honor the agreement that we already had with them" is a pretty nasty warning sign. If correct, well, it's one thing to refuse deals in the future, it's another to cancel deals already made; that causes lawsuits for damages. Politicians ain't gonna be happy either.

I am beginning to think Mr. Anderson is an idiot. I could make better decisions than this, even if I had essentially the same agenda.

I have no knowledge of the actual agreement, but....I wouldn't be at all surprised if the agreement, at the insistence of Amtrak's legal department, had a clause that let Amtrak cancel for whatever reason they chose, with no repercussion's....so they would not be liable to any lawsuits....