Largest Metros Without Amtrak Service (How to Serve Them?)

[ParanoidAndroid]

I've never heard Philly say that . . .

 

[FormerOBS]

If you could figure out an effective way to go from Pittsburgh to Columbus, we can do NYP-PHL-PGH-Columbus-CIN-on the way to DAL via Louisville and Nashville. Otherwise, it's probably better to go through upstate New York.

My best suggestion for that leg is to ignore Cleveland. Run the train Pittsburgh - Youngstown - Akron - Greenwich on the old B&O, restoring service to Akron and Youngstown. Then Greenwich to Columbus on the Tri-C. Tom

 

[railiner]

Another alternate route from New York to Dallas:

New York- Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bristol-Knoxville-Chattanooga-Memphis-Little Rock-Texarkana-Dallas...

Don't have a reference handy (at work) to predict running times...

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Another alternate route from New York to Dallas:

New York- Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bristol-Knoxville-Chattanooga-Memphis-Little Rock-Texarkana-Dallas...

Don't have a reference handy (at work) to predict running times...

That route wouldn't add any of the largest metros (Bristol, Knoxville, and Chattanooga metros all have less than 1 million people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas).

The advantage is there is a good route from NYP to Lynchburg already and the expansion to Roanoke is coming shortly and your route does add PHL and WAS to the route. I also like the Memphis to Little Rock-Dallas routing.

Could the train be routed via Nashville between Knoxville and Memphis instead of Chattanooga? That would add a much bigger market and still be on the way at least geographically (not sure any good tracks though)? In fact, if I could do on my proposed route Nashville-Memphis-Little Rock-Dallas that might be faster than going through Birmingham. Or once you get to Memphis, you might be able to do Jackson, MS-Shreveport, LA-Dallas on that portion of the Meridian Speedway.

 

[west point]

Knoxville <> Nashville. Not any through service since 1930s on the Tennessee Central and SOU with a thru sleeper NYP - Nashville. Sleeper then went by way of Chattanooga until about 1960 ? TC Line is now severed with ~20 Miles pulled up..

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Knoxville <> Nashville. Not any through service since 1930s on the Tennessee Central and SOU with a thru sleeper NYP - Nashville. Sleeper then went by way of Chattanooga until about 1960 ? Line is now severed.

For Tennessee, first comes the day train Memphis-Paducah-Carbondale-Champaign-Chicago.

Next, a gift from the neighboring state, er, commonwealth, of Virginia will be an extended Dominion Express route Norfolk-Richmond-Charlottesville-and/or-Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bristol-Knoxville-Chattanooga-points south. Nashville service, for the reason you cite among others, might best go Nashville-Memphis-Jackson, MS-New Orleans. Or Nashville-Decatur-and/or-Huntsville-Birmingham-points south. How those trains might usefully get to Nashville from CHI, hmmn, CHI-Indy-Louisville-Nashville on a host railroad that simply will NOT have it? Or somehow CHI-Terre Haute-Evansville-Nashville? Not bunch of heavy hitters on that line-up.

​So, faced with a faceful of cold water, the dream of Nashville services moves further down the to-do list.

 

[west point]

In the USA there are just 3 north - south routes . Silvers, City of NO, and Coast Starlight. AS well 2 NE to SW routes - Crescent and Eagle ( also going east west.). Total of 6 train routes s. East west 3 in the east & 4 in the west. Future Gulf coast limited 1 more.

Time for another north south. Proposal to run on Royal Palm schedule gives service to CIN, Lexington, Knoxville ( 15 mile drive from downtown ) Chattanooga, ( future connecting train from STL, Evansville, Nashville to Chattanooga ) = ATL, Macon, JAX Then on into Florida. Use Cardinal to bring cars from CHI, Once 3C corridor in service run train from Detroit picking up cars from CHI at CIN. Schedule will also allow Cardinal passenger from VA and WV to connect southbound to Florida. This would be only 840 new miles on NS and all other N-S eastern proposals for a long distance trains are many more miles and a longer enroute time..

SD train routes across the Ohio valley are short but at present require state support that hopefully will change ?

 

[A Voice]

Another alternate route from New York to Dallas:

New York- Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bristol-Knoxville-Chattanooga-Memphis-Little Rock-Texarkana-Dallas...

Don't have a reference handy (at work) to predict running times...

That route wouldn't add any of the largest metros (Bristol, Knoxville, and Chattanooga metros all have less than 1 million people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas).

The advantage is there is a good route from NYP to Lynchburg already and the expansion to Roanoke is coming shortly and your route does add PHL and WAS to the route. I also like the Memphis to Little Rock-Dallas routing.

Could the train be routed via Nashville between Knoxville and Memphis instead of Chattanooga? That would add a much bigger market and still be on the way at least geographically (not sure any good tracks though)? In fact, if I could do on my proposed route Nashville-Memphis-Little Rock-Dallas that might be faster than going through Birmingham. Or once you get to Memphis, you might be able to do Jackson, MS-Shreveport, LA-Dallas on that portion of the Meridian Speedway.

Knoxville <> Nashville. Not any through service since 1930s on the Tennessee Central and SOU with a thru sleeper NYP - Nashville. Sleeper then went by way of Chattanooga until about 1960 ? TC Line is now severed with ~20 Miles pulled up..

The only way, since the early 1980's, to get from Knoxville to Nashville by rail is via Chattanooga anyway; That traces quite a long, zigzagged path through the state. It would have the advantage of passing through the four largest population centers in Tennessee, but such a long route would kill any chance of intrastate business. Though it misses Nashville, the Norfolk Southern line from Chattanooga to Memphis (through northern Alabama) makes much more sense.

There have been proposals to restore the abandoned (and removed) Monterey to Crab Orchard segment of the former Tennessee Central line; Predictably, the plans have gone nowhere (cost estimates were excessive). .

 

[Palmetto]

The Arizona Department of Transportation and the Feds have just finalized a route for their proposed Phoenix-Tuscon commuter rail service. In my mind, this opens up the possibility of Amtrak once again serving Phoenix.

Contingent on this would be the renovation of the former Southern Pacific mainline that goes to Wellton, AZ and connects there with the Union Pacific's Sunset route going west to Yuma. The route doesn't have to be super-fast, but the right-of-way will need sprucing up for sure in order to begin service.

I did a Google Earth flyover of the route this morning, and it appears the track goes all the way to Wellton, except for a short stretch through an industrial area. There is also what appears to be an ethanol plant west of Phoenix, and the Union Pacific Railroad is parking tank cars on the main line to serve it. A siding would have to put in at that point to accomodate the tank cars for the ethanol plant [if that's what it is].

The distance from Phoenix to Wellton is approximately 160 miles, and to bring it up to a state of repair to allow for 79 MPH + running is going to cost a good chunk of money. I propose taking what's there, even if it's jointed rail, and sprucing it up for 60 MPH as a start. [Let's not forget the Santa Fe railroad used to run 90 MPH on well maintained jointed rail.] Signals can come later, and higher speeds can come later. It's the incremental approach to restoring service.

It would also get Amtrak our the UP dispatcher's hair for a good 200 miles.

I do not know where the Southern Pacific Station is/was located in Phoenix, or even if it is still standing. But if it is east of the connection to the BNSF mainline going north, it is not out of the question that service could be established going to Albuquerque, Denver and points north of there [the Caprock Express]. Someone earlier pointed out the paucity of north-south Amtrak routes, and this would be a good one to establish connections and connectivity to the western two-thirds of the Amtrak operation.

All of this is, of course, predicated on adequate funding, so please don't throw up an objection based solely on that. We all know that funding for passenger rail in this country is quite inadequate.

Just my musings on a fine Tuesday morning in Texas.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Going with Palmetto's idea: What if we were able to do Los Angeles - Phoenix - Albuquerque? Would that be much longer in time than the current SWC route between LAX and Albuquerque? That would open up a huge market to the route.

 

[Palmetto]

Going with Palmetto's idea: What if we were able to do Los Angeles - Phoenix - Albuquerque? Would that be much longer in time than the current SWC route between LAX and Albuquerque? That would open up a huge market to the route.

According the the map, there is no connection from the UP to the BNSF in Phoenix that would allow that, and there seems not to any room to build one either, unfortunately.

 

[jis]

Going with Palmetto's idea: What if we were able to do Los Angeles - Phoenix - Albuquerque? Would that be much longer in time than the current SWC route between LAX and Albuquerque? That would open up a huge market to the route.

Open up a rail map of Arizona + New Mexico, and the answer will become clear as night follows a day to anyone.

Why do you think there will be a huge market on a slow and meandering route through the sticks where very few people live, and where they can drive way quicker on relatively unclogged highways than taking the train?

According the the map, there is no connection from the UP to the BNSF in Phoenix that would allow that, and there seems not to any room to build one either, unfortunately.

One practical way to do it would be using the Deming - (Southwest Railroad Short Line) - Rincon - (BNSF) - Belen - (BNSF) - Albuquerque route. At least the riders will get a good grand tour of 2/3rds of New Mexico in the process, while they slowly meander along the Short Line I believe the BNSF line from El Paso to Belen, which this rotue would join at Rincon, is in very good condition, but BNSF may have a conniption if someone proposed running a passenger train on it. The connection to this route at El paso faces the wrong way for a train coming from Tucson.

The other would be to run in reverse from Phoenix to Drake on the Arizona Central, slowly, and then reverse direction so that one is moving forward again on BNSF joining the BNSF main line at West Williams jct, and then to ABQ. This has the advantage of using established BNSF route including Williams and Flagstaff on the route, but would probably be sow as dickens.

All this assumes of coruse that the connection from Roll to Arlington ( that is the actual portion between Phoenix and Welton that is out of service) over the old SP main is restored allowing trains to come to Phoenix from the west.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I don't think Phoenix-Albuquerque-Denver as a stand alone train is practical. Even if it is 750 miles or above, while Phoenix and Denver are large cities/metros it would be hard to justify an LD train without at least one really huge market, NYP, CHI, or LAX. If you can't extend from Phoenix to Albuquerque the other option would be Denver-Chicago and you get a Chicago-Phoenix train. But what do you do in Phoenix without the ability to service the train?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

The Arizona Department of Transportation and the Feds have just finalized a route for their proposed Phoenix-Tuscon commuter rail service. In my mind, this opens up the possibility of Amtrak once again serving Phoenix.

This is good news. Work incrementally to restore the service, and the commuter line is an excellent first step.

Last I read something, by Arizona's preliminary forecast it was gonna cost $4 or $5 Billion ore more. So we hope the latest study comes in at a lower estimate.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

I don't think Phoenix-Albuquerque-Denver as a stand alone train is practical. Even if it is 750 miles or above, while Phoenix and Denver are large cities/metros it would be hard to justify an LD train without at least one really huge market, NYP, CHI, or LA. If you can't extend from Phoenix to Albuquerque the other option would be Denver-Chicago and you get a Chicago-Phoenix train. But what do you do in Phoenix without the ability to service the train?

Previously I proposed L.A.-Phoenix-Tucson-El Paso-Albuquerque-Pueblo-Colorado Springs-Denver-Omaha-Des Moines-Quad Cities-CHI. (Jis, I know the problem at El Paso, but we'll have to find a way.) Don't worry about the distances between the major cities. Their residents have a different attitude about distances than you do back East.

Amtrak already views L.A.-Phoenix and L.A.-Tucson as potential corridors, with overnight service each way. Of course, first take the Sunset Ltd daily. Then the route will need a second daily train to begin to build a corridor service. There's strong cultural and business links between El Paso and Phoenix, which is the nearest big city.

L.A.-Phoenix-Tucson-El Paso service has a potential Mexican-American market. A very busy bus station in El Paso (within easy walking distance of the pedestrian bridge from Juarez) dispatches many busloads to those other Southwestern cities. Oh, and Greyhound has a smaller, less busy station, too.

El Paso-(UTEP or Univ of Texas at El Paso)-Las Cruces (New Mexico State U)-Albuquerque (Univ of New Mexico) is another market with strong cultural ties between the cities. And many people in El Paso drive to Denver in a day -- but admit it wears them out.

There has to be a good market for passengers Arizona-Colorado. Someone who can't/won't drive/fly now has to go from Tucson or Maricopa to L.A. then up to Emeryville to catch the Zephyr to go east. God help them. They would prefer to wander around on a train thru El Paso and Albuquerque over any of the present options.

At Albuquerque, the train can make connections with the Southwest Chief. It then becomes a Front Range train Pueblo-Colorado Springs-Denver. Connections to the Zephyr at Denver. Then turn right to go Denver-Omaha-CHI, which already badly needs a second frequency.

Big cities with Amtrak maintenance facilities at either end, and plenty of mid-point to mid-point markets in between.

 

[Palmetto]

Opening up another north-south route will increase connectivity between a myriad of places. I don't think that it's a prerequisite to have a "huge" endpoint as part of the plan. Do we consider Seattle "huge"? I don't. And I don't want to get into the "endpoint mentality". That has been used by Sen. McCain as a reason to end the Sunset Limited. ["It would be cheaper to buy every passenger a plane ticket from New Orleans to Los Angeles."]

 

[ABQFloridian]

I'll comment on Akron and Colorado Springs.

Akron, Cleveland, and Canton are all sort of wedged in together (about 60 miles from Cleveland to Canton), so I think they would be better served by a commuter service than by a longer Amtrak route. Sadly, routing a 3 C's route though Akron would make it take way too long, but if they were timed well, the two routes could serve as feeders for each other.

As for Colorado Springs, a Front Range route from Denver to Pueblo at least seems like a no-brainer. My dream would be to see such a route that goes further south to Albuquerque and El Paso, because as noted above, there are lots of cultural connections along that route. Lots of people here in ABQ have family in El Paso or Colorado, plus we're bound by our love of chile.

There are also a good number of people north of Denver up towards Ft. Collins but that's another story.

 

[west point]

First item is for Amtrak to get their present trains and service in order. That includes enough equipment to meet demand on present trains.

Then the next item is adding another train when equipment is available.. The north <> south post statement seems to be the best. No slight intended to our western train proponents but there is not any route out west that can meet the possible population potential of a North South route in the east. Although not this poster's first preference here is a route that should really cover big potential service. Cleveland - Toledo ( connecting by having a Michigan train to come from Detroit and south Michigan to Toledo ) - Columbus - Dayton - Cincinnati ( southbound connecting to Cardinal from CHI & West VA ) - Lexington - Knoxville ( 20mile drive ) - Chattanooga - Atlanta ( South bound gets Crescent connection BHM & south ) - Macon - Jacksonville - and any number of various routes to Miami.

then when enough equipment STL - Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga ( connecting to this CLE - MIA train. Gets the 3 C corridor running in Ohio and will open other possibilities as well.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I'll comment on Akron and Colorado Springs.

Akron, Cleveland, and Canton are all sort of wedged in together (about 60 miles from Cleveland to Canton), so I think they would be better served by a commuter service than by a longer Amtrak route.

A commuter feeder from Akron/Canton to Cleveland would be worthless when it comes to Amtrak unless they ran to connect to/from the LSL/CL and ran during the graveyard shift. Of course it would help in general for commuter traffic.

 

[ABQFloridian]

I'll comment on Akron and Colorado Springs.

Akron, Cleveland, and Canton are all sort of wedged in together (about 60 miles from Cleveland to Canton), so I think they would be better served by a commuter service than by a longer Amtrak route.

A commuter feeder from Akron/Canton to Cleveland would be worthless when it comes to Amtrak unless they ran to connect to/from the LSL/CL and ran during the graveyard shift. Of course it would help in general for commuter traffic.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant it would be a good feeder if Amtrak hypothetically opened a daytime multi-frequency daytime route from Cleveland to Cincinnati.

Certainly, there's no reason for local governments to waste resources on a special train to meet the CL or LSL which will probably just be late for their useless arrival times anyway.

 

[Seaboard92]

Akron, Canton, Cleveland really needs to be a regular commuter train similar to VRE or MARC. And it shouldn't be run by Amtrak.

I'm not sure if you guys have ever looked at the official guide timetables you can check out how many overnight connections from Cincinnati to Midwestern cities.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I know the metro is served but the city of San Francisco isn't served by Amtrak trains. I'm sure many would like a train into the city and not the Thruway Bus. And most people outside of Emeryville have no idea where it is (I didn't until I visited).

I'm guessing trains can't go over the bay from Oakland to San Fran and it would be out of the way along the CS route. Caltrain runs from San Fran to San Jose. Ideally you'd have a train San Fran to San Jose to Los Angeles via San Luis Obispo/Santa Barbara (old Coast Daylight route). Who knows when California HSR will be ready?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

First item is for Amtrak to get their present trains and service in order. That includes enough equipment to meet demand on present trains.

[Yes!]

Then the next item is adding another train when equipment is available.

[Yes!]

The north <> south post statement seems to be the best. No slight intended to our western train proponents but there is not any route out west that can meet the possible population potential of a North <> South route in the east. [Yes! The Appalachian and Mid-South regions are very badly underserved.]

Although not this poster's first preference, here is a route

[Don't be a tease, tell us your true preference]

that should really cover big potential [markets]. Cleveland - Toledo ( connecting by having a Michigan train to come from Detroit and south Michigan to Toledo ) [and/or to Columbus, allowing a direct CLE-Columbus train to join/split at Columbus, or even at Cincinnati]- Columbus - Dayton - Cincinnati ( southbound connecting to Cardinal from CHI & West VA ) - Lexington - Knoxville ( 20mile drive ) [isn't there a second, more easterly route Cincinnati-Knoxville? maybe not in usable condition?] - Chattanooga - Atlanta ( southbound gets Crescent connection BHM & south ) - Macon - Jacksonville - and any number of various routes to Miami.

[The Virginia trains planners are looking ahead to Richmond-(maybe via Charlottesville?)-Lynchburg-Roanoke-Bristol-Knoxville-Chattanooga. Virginia knows how to get trains done, so I'm counting on this one. It could continue to ATL if that city ever builds an adequate station. Oh, well, the Ohio planners couldn't figure out how to have two routes (Cardinal and 3-Cs} meet at the same Cincinnati station! (That was another reason Gov Kasich was able to abort the 3-Cs.) Otherwise forget ATL. Chattanooga-Huntsville, AL-Decatur, AL-Birmingham-Montgomery-Mobile-New Orleans/Florida should work well enuff. Meanwhile this Virginia-backed route apparently anticipates connecting with a train Louisville-Frankfort-Lexington-Knoxville-Chattanooga. Where such a train might originate, could be Ohio, or it could run CHI-Indianapolis-Louisville, of course.]

Then when enough equipment [begin Kansas City or CHI] - STL - Louisville - Nashville - Chattanooga ( connecting to this CLE - MIA train ).

Gets the 3 C corridor running in Ohio and will open other possibilities as well.

[i'd also put a second train on the CoNO tracks CHI-Memphis, then head east to Birmingham-beyond. Not quite the route of the Floridian, but could be another Florida train. If a good route to Florida seems difficult, go Birmingham-New Orleans.]

[Of the cities mentioned, I guess Columbus is the biggest. But taken together the East Tennessee Three of Chattanooga-Knoxville-Bristol (Tri-Cities) are likely bigger than Columbus. And Louisville, Memphis, and Birmingham aren't chopped liver, while Indianapolis has the population to support another route or two.]

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I found a link to this report from the Chaddick Institute for Metropolitan Development (Depaul University): https://las.depaul.edu/centers-and-institutes/chaddick-institute-for-metropolitan-development/Documents/ChaddickInstitute_GroundTransportationGapsStudy_20170823.pdf

They discuss "Ground Transportation Gaps" which tie together rail transportation with "express coach" bus service which include Megabus and BoltBus but not Greyhound, referring to these as "middle mode" transportation. They identified 152 routes between 120-400 miles that lack a viable middle mode transportation route. The #1 city pair is Los Angeles-Phoenix, followed by Detroit-Cleveland (Table 3 in document). They also identify ten "Pockets of Pain" which are "The Largest U.S. Metropolitan Areas with neither Amtrak nor Express Coach service(U.S. Mainland)" (#1 Phoenix, #2 Columbus, #3 Tulsa, Las Vegas does have express coaches). Figure 7B highlights Columbus and shows routes and estimated number of trips from Columbus to various cities including Chicago, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and indianapolis while Figure 7C highlights Phoenix and its neighbors (Los Angeles, Las Vegas, San Diego. Tuscon).

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The most important new route in PA is New York-Allentown-Reading-Harrisburg