Hypothetical Keystone Limited

[Swadian Hardcore]

Trains from Pittsburgh run diesel to Philly. There is no facility anymore to change engines at Harrisburg, except in emergencies.

Just to stir things up, the Pennsylvanian and a PHL-PGH train would be interesting candidates to run ALP-45DP dual electric/diesel locomotives on. Amtrak could contract with NJ Transit to do the major maintenance on the locomotives. Saves on diesel fuel to Harrisburg and a engine swap at 30th Street for the Pennsylvanian. Amtrak could get PA DOT to help cover the cost of leasing the ALP-45DPs. I realize that this is an idea that Amtrak is unlikely to pursue or adopt, but figured I would throw it out there.

UGH!! h34r: WHYYYYY!!! :blink:

Why is it that everytime someone see's a gap in electric to diesel service they automatically jump to the ALP-45DP... The Unit hasn't even proven it can run by it's self and let alone in service.. IMHO it's a waste of money if it hasn't proven itself.. Also Amtrak's relationship with Bombardier isn't a good one since AE and the HHP's.

Well I have to disagree with the "haven't proven it can run by itself" part.

Looks a lot like a Baureihe 101. Any connections with that?

 

[jis]

Well I have to disagree with the "haven't proven it can run by itself" part.

Oh I have no doubt that it can run by itself. I have seen them go by my window here in Short Hills dozens of times both in diesel and electric mode. The problem that they currently have, and the reason that they have not been introduced in commercial service pending resolution, is that they have certain dynamic stability issues that need fixing. Amtrak has basically refused to certify them for operation on the high line at any reasonable usable speed pending the fix, and AMT also managed to derail one inside the tunnel. So we all wait now to see how they fix the problems.

 

[Acela150]

Trains from Pittsburgh run diesel to Philly. There is no facility anymore to change engines at Harrisburg, except in emergencies.

Just to stir things up, the Pennsylvanian and a PHL-PGH train would be interesting candidates to run ALP-45DP dual electric/diesel locomotives on. Amtrak could contract with NJ Transit to do the major maintenance on the locomotives. Saves on diesel fuel to Harrisburg and a engine swap at 30th Street for the Pennsylvanian. Amtrak could get PA DOT to help cover the cost of leasing the ALP-45DPs. I realize that this is an idea that Amtrak is unlikely to pursue or adopt, but figured I would throw it out there.

UGH!! h34r: WHYYYYY!!! :blink:

Why is it that everytime someone see's a gap in electric to diesel service they automatically jump to the ALP-45DP... The Unit hasn't even proven it can run by it's self and let alone in service.. IMHO it's a waste of money if it hasn't proven itself.. Also Amtrak's relationship with Bombardier isn't a good one since AE and the HHP's.

Well I have to disagree with the "haven't proven it can run by itself" part.

Put about 5,000 miles on the electric and diesel motors in passenger service and take it from there. NJT put a diesel on with its test trains to make sure of it failed it wouldn't be in the way of things. AMT rushed them into service. NJT has had them for a few months and is taking it very very slow. I'm not a fan of this unit and it's technology. It's way to many components in to small a space. Whoever thought this up. I'm not there biggest fan.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Can somebody explain how the ALP-45DP works? Is it a mini electric and a mini diesel put together or something else?

 

[Blue Marble Travel]

Can somebody explain how the ALP-45DP works? Is it a mini electric and a mini diesel put together or something else?

And, can the person who explains how it works start a new thread, with the title, "how the ALP-45DP works?" It's a topic of interest to more than just the sliver of us chuffed about an express or two from Harrisburg to NY.

Thanks!

 

[Blue Marble Travel]

While I'd love another daytime run, this run I thought up was as a way to get a second timing with the least amount of investment into equipment. For me, it's not about the scenery all the time. I've actually successfully integrated Amtrak into my regular business travel from Pittsburgh to Chicago. I like it because it isn't flying. My boss likes it because I get more time "on the ground" in the Chicago office and I also reduce the cost of my hotel since I can cut up to 2 nights hotel stay by going overnight on the Cap.

I am also in NYC regularly for business, as are many colleagues. If I could get a similar setup into NYP, there is a business market, not just a consumer/vacationer market, waiting on Amtrak for that kind of service.

I agree with Oldsmobol here. There is a significant non-railfan base for overnight coach travel. Students, mothers with small children and not a lot of money, business travellers on stipends, not-1%-people broadly defined.... Many people who are just trying to "get there" can't afford to give up a day for scenery. Small children sleep well in coach seats (and do better than if they are on a 10-hour daylight run). And a night schedule uses equipment that otherwise sits in a yard. Even if per-mile occupancy is lower, a proper economic analysis would factor in the equipment costs as lower, too.

There is also a small but real business clientele interested in the sleepers. An overnight train is effectively time-competitive with a plane on a 10-hour route, because you don't really do anything that you wouldn't do in a hotel room. So, it's as if your travel time were zero, provided you get sufficient rest in a moving bed.

My only question would be this: given the proposed schedule, might it not make sense to "burn" a trio of coaches and a locomotive, and run the train through to Cleveland? This would eliminate the tight turn in PGH, but the extra revenue from the big, nearby market might be sufficient to amortize a crew and the cost of the coaches+loco, and the Viewliner sleeper was sitting all day, anyway. You would also create a PGH - CLE daylight train, morning up, afternoon back, which might garner some riders. You would need a stable in Cleveland, but which could also serve what I see as the inevitable daylight CHI - CLE - CHI turn, which Ohio will fund once they come to their senses.

I don't see PGH-CLE-PGH demand for it at current speeds and routing between PGH and CLE. There would need to be a market for PHL-CLE, HAR-CLE, or NYP-CLE travel that was wanting to overnight from the east just to get into CLE at a reasonable morning hour... and I seriously doubt it exists.

Um... why not? A simple gravity model (the roughest, but also reasonably accurate way of predicting travel volume between two points: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trip_distribution) says that those are some pretty important market pairs, with the exception of Harrisburg - Cleveland. Bus service is not great on the PGH - CLE route, and air from CLE to the east coast is exclusively provided by "legacy" airlines: no JetBlue, Southwest, Spirit... as far as I know. So, fares are high. There are 2 million plus people in Cleveland's SMSA... Cleveland to the east coast has "underserved market" written all over it.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Legacy airlines now compete much better against the likes of B6 or WN. Spirit is the only "low-cosat airline" which is still much cheaper than legacies.

 

[Acela150]

Can somebody explain how the ALP-45DP works? Is it a mini electric and a mini diesel put together or something else?

And, can the person who explains how it works start a new thread, with the title, "how the ALP-45DP works?" It's a topic of interest to more than just the sliver of us chuffed about an express or two from Harrisburg to NY.

Thanks!

Blue Marble, unless your going to answer. Don't reply with an answer like this. The user is asking a question and can't be given a simple answer??

To answer your question Swadian, the ALP-45DP has a Diesel motor and an Electric motor with a Pantograph. A first of it's kind in the railroad industry IINM. It was also very hard to design as Amtrak has weight restrictions on the NEC. I can't recall what they are off the top of my head but somewhere around 268,000 IIRC. Not sure. Perhaps someone else can expand on this. So the ALP-45DP can run on Diesel power and off catenary as well.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Can somebody explain how the ALP-45DP works? Is it a mini electric and a mini diesel put together or something else?

And, can the person who explains how it works start a new thread, with the title, "how the ALP-45DP works?" It's a topic of interest to more than just the sliver of us chuffed about an express or two from Harrisburg to NY.

Thanks!

Blue Marble, unless your going to answer. Don't reply with an answer like this. The user is asking a question and can't be given a simple answer??

To answer your question Swadian, the ALP-45DP has a Diesel motor and an Electric motor with a Pantograph. A first of it's kind in the railroad industry IINM. It was also very hard to design as Amtrak has weight restrictions on the NEC. I can't recall what they are off the top of my head but somewhere around 268,000 IIRC. Not sure. Perhaps someone else can expand on this. So the ALP-45DP can run on Diesel power and off catenary as well.

Thank you, Acela 150. If it's too heavy, then how much does a Genesis or Toaster weigh? I heard that the Genesis weighs 242,000 pounds. :excl:

 

[AlanB]

A P42 comes in at 268,650 and an AEM-7 weighs 201,500. The HHP-8 actually comes in heavier than the AEM at 221,000.

 

[Acela150]

Alan any ideas on what the weight restrictions are on the NEC?? I thought it was 268 but P42's are over 268 and run the NEC here and there and use to run up and down everyday during the power shortage.

 

[Blue Marble Travel]

Can somebody explain how the ALP-45DP works? Is it a mini electric and a mini diesel put together or something else?

And, can the person who explains how it works start a new thread, with the title, "how the ALP-45DP works?" It's a topic of interest to more than just the sliver of us chuffed about an express or two from Harrisburg to NY.

Thanks!

Blue Marble, unless your going to answer. Don't reply with an answer like this. The user is asking a question and can't be given a simple answer??

To answer your question Swadian, the ALP-45DP has a Diesel motor and an Electric motor with a Pantograph. A first of it's kind in the railroad industry IINM. It was also very hard to design as Amtrak has weight restrictions on the NEC. I can't recall what they are off the top of my head but somewhere around 268,000 IIRC. Not sure. Perhaps someone else can expand on this. So the ALP-45DP can run on Diesel power and off catenary as well.

Thank you, Acela 150. If it's too heavy, then how much does a Genesis or Toaster weigh? I heard that the Genesis weighs 242,000 pounds. :excl:

Easy, guys. Just suggesting that the topic was of general interest, not just to the 4 of us following this thread. But, of course, you are free to keep your thoughts to just a select few: it's a free country!

 

[jis]

To answer your question Swadian, the ALP-45DP has a Diesel motor and an Electric motor with a Pantograph. A first of it's kind in the railroad industry IINM. It was also very hard to design as Amtrak has weight restrictions on the NEC. I can't recall what they are off the top of my head but somewhere around 268,000 IIRC. Not sure. Perhaps someone else can expand on this. So the ALP-45DP can run on Diesel power and off catenary as well.

Among 4 axle units MP36PHs are already allowed on the NEC at 108mph (their maximum design speed). They weigh something like 285,000lb. An ALP45DP weighs 288,000lb. The current problem as I have heard, is weight balance and dynamic behavior, and it is being studied and addressed. After the issues are addressed I have no idea whether they will ever be certified for 125mph, which they are physically capable of under electric power. Incidentally FL-9s weighed in at 287,000lb but distributed over 5 axles.

ALP45DP is at its core an electric engine similar to the ALP46, with slightly smaller transformer and hence slightly less power in e-mode. The primary source of power is through the pantograph from catenary, but is augmented by two high speed Caterpillar diesel motors that can be brought on line to deliver power when no power is available from the cat. That is why some call it an elctro-diesel unit as opposed to a diesel-electric unit.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

To answer your question Swadian, the ALP-45DP has a Diesel motor and an Electric motor with a Pantograph. A first of it's kind in the railroad industry IINM. It was also very hard to design as Amtrak has weight restrictions on the NEC. I can't recall what they are off the top of my head but somewhere around 268,000 IIRC. Not sure. Perhaps someone else can expand on this. So the ALP-45DP can run on Diesel power and off catenary as well.

Among 4 axle units MP36PHs are already allowed on the NEC at 108mph (their maximum design speed). They weigh something like 285,000lb. An ALP45DP weighs 288,000lb. The current problem as I have heard, is weight balance and dynamic behavior, and it is being studied and addressed. After the issues are addressed I have no idea whether they will ever be certified for 125mph, which they are physically capable of under electric power. Incidentally FL-9s weighed in at 287,000lb but distributed over 5 axles.

ALP45DP is at its core an electric engine similar to the ALP46, with slightly smaller transformer and hence slightly less power in e-mode. The primary source of power is through the pantograph from catenary, but is augmented by two high speed Caterpillar diesel motors that can be brought on line to deliver power when no power is available from the cat. That is why some call it an elctro-diesel unit as opposed to a diesel-electric unit.

Are you talking about axle load?

 

[Blue Marble Travel]

Legacy airlines now compete much better against the likes of B6 or WN. Spirit is the only "low-cosat airline" which is still much cheaper than legacies.

They compete when there is a low-cost on the route. They tend not to compete much against each other.

Refer to the discussion above concerning the withdrawl of Southwest from the Pittsburgh - Phila route, and the resulting change in USAirways' fares.

You are correct that the cost structures of Southwest and Jet Blue are now not much different than the cost structures of the legacies. But their pricing policies remain quite different, and where one of them is present on a route, the legacies are forced to follow suit.

 

[jis]

Are you talking about axle load?

Take a guess. Is 288,000lb conceivably axle load or the weight of the whole engine?

Of course ultimately as far as the track goes it is axle load that matters. 288,000lb on 4 axles makes the axle load 72,000lb, whereas in case of FL-9 287,000lb on 5 axles makes the axle load only 57400lb.

 

[George Harris]

Wonder if they could just electrify all the way to PGH? I heard that the PRR wanted to do that in the 1930s but it was cancelled.

Because when the tunnels and other overhead structures were enlarged/raised/track lowered sufficiently to pass double stacks, they were not enlarged sufficiently to permit electrication above that. IMHO a very short sighted thing to do. Since the tunnels were completely redone in the sense that the previousl lining was stripped out, rock cut back as needed and new lining installed, enlargement to the point necessary to permit installation of cantenary with a wire height that would clear double stacks could have been done for little more money. In the wirteups on this work, there was the mention that there was evidence of more than one, possibly three or more previous clearance improvement works.

Contrast this with Southern's early 1960's clearance works in the many tunnels they had/have in the Appalachians: Thye went for 30 feet high above the rail and 20 feet wide, 8 feet one side and 12 the other. The comment was made by them that they took a look into the future "as far as we could so that we would not have to do this again."

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Are you talking about axle load?

Take a guess. Is 288,000lb conceivably axle load or the weight of the whole engine?

Of course ultimately as far as the track goes it is axle load that matters. 288,000lb on 4 axles makes the axle load 72,000lb, whereas in case of FL-9 287,000lb on 5 axles makes the axle load only 57400lb.

I know that 288,000 pounds is total weight, but I mean when you were talking about that balance of the locomotive overall.

 

[jis]

Are you talking about axle load?

Take a guess. Is 288,000lb conceivably axle load or the weight of the whole engine?

Of course ultimately as far as the track goes it is axle load that matters. 288,000lb on 4 axles makes the axle load 72,000lb, whereas in case of FL-9 287,000lb on 5 axles makes the axle load only 57400lb.

I know that 288,000 pounds is total weight, but I mean when you were talking about that balance of the locomotive overall.

All that I have heard about the ALP45-DP is that it has dynamic issues. I have no idea whether it is due to weight distribution or improper damping or some unexpected natural frequency being triggered or what. The fact that the problem has manifested itself by derailment suggest it may be lateral oscillation of some sort. but who knows? If I hear more I will mention it here. Maybe I'll hear something at TransAction in a few weeks or at the NARP meeting in Washington two weeks after that.