Hypothetical Keystone Limited

[DivMiler]

I take the Keystone between Harrisburg (HAR) and Philadelphia (PHL) a fair amount. I like that there are several trains (roughly once per hour during weekdays).

I have often wondered about the feasibility of a limited Keystone service, just stopping at (say) HAR, Lancaster (LNC), and PHL, perhaps every other hour, or a few times per day. How much time would be saved? There is SEPTA service near Philadelphia, so (perhaps) it would not be an inconvenience for passengers using those stations, but would the quicker HAR - PHL service make up for any lost revenue from passengers wanting to use Middletown, Elizabethtown, Mount Joy, or other stations?

 

[Acela150]

This would be an idea for Rush hour service. Perhaps the first or second train of the day from HAR and the same from PHL. I could see 649 going to ARD and PAO then going non stop to LNC and HAR. PAO and ARD as those two stops are traveled well enough on 649. Especially on Fridays.

 

[fairviewroad]

Looks like it could save 15 minutes or so. Train 642 is almost a "limited" in the manner you described and it makes the run from HAR to PHL in 1 hr, 35 minutes. The preceding weekday departure, train 600, makes nearly all the stops and takes 1 hr, 49 minutes.

A 15-minute savings on a short-ish corridor is definitely marketable, though Amtrak would run the risk of making the rest of its Keystone trains sound slow by comparison.

Also, any "limited" service should (equipment allowing) supplement not replace existing trains. Those rush-hour runs in particular are well-utilized and I bet a lot of people heading to places like Parkesburg and Mount Joy are monthly pass-holders...so you run the risk of losing a lot of revenue if you drop stops on rush-hour runs.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I like the idea of limited serivce. They could even extend it to PGH to supplement the Pennsy.

Pittsburgh Limited: NYP-NWK-TRE-PHL-LNC-HAR-ALT-JST-PGH. Possible extension to BOS. What do you think?

 

[Acela150]

I like the idea of limited serivce. They could even extend it to PGH to supplement the Pennsy.

Pittsburgh Limited: NYP-NWK-TRE-PHL-LNC-HAR-ALT-JST-PGH. Possible extension to BOS. What do you think?

You would have to convince Amtrak of that. Or the state. The extension to BOS wouldn't go far on a funding basis. Unless you get it from all the states.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I like the idea of limited serivce. They could even extend it to PGH to supplement the Pennsy.

Pittsburgh Limited: NYP-NWK-TRE-PHL-LNC-HAR-ALT-JST-PGH. Possible extension to BOS. What do you think?

You would have to convince Amtrak of that. Or the state. The extension to BOS wouldn't go far on a funding basis. Unless you get it from all the states.

How's PA as regards to rail funding?

 

[johnny.menhennet]

I like the idea of limited serivce. They could even extend it to PGH to supplement the Pennsy.

Pittsburgh Limited: NYP-NWK-TRE-PHL-LNC-HAR-ALT-JST-PGH. Possible extension to BOS. What do you think?

You would have to convince Amtrak of that. Or the state. The extension to BOS wouldn't go far on a funding basis. Unless you get it from all the states.

How's PA as regards to rail funding?

Pretty good, from what I know. But because there is currently only one frequency west of Harrisburg, I think that any train west of Harrisburg should make all or almost all stops to allow the residents in that area access to the train. And to allow for more city pairs, I would have any Pennsy add on to stop at almost every stop. Basically, because of the lower density and more space between stops, any new Pennsy should have all stops.

 

[benjibear]

PA supports the service. I am not sure how much they give and how that compares to other states.

Personanly I would like to see increased trains west of Harrisburg.

Also, wasn't somebody talking a few years ago of a rail project that would use part of the Keystone to connect Carlisle to Harrisburg, to Lancaster with an eventual branch to York? Harrisburg is in greatt need for transportation improvements because the traffic is terrible around there.

 

[Eric S]

Also, wasn't somebody talking a few years ago of a rail project that would use part of the Keystone to connect Carlisle to Harrisburg, to Lancaster with an eventual branch to York? Harrisburg is in greatt need for transportation improvements because the traffic is terrible around there.

That was a proposal for a Harrisburg commuter rail service (Corridor One I believe). Haven't seen any activity on that front in some time though. (Granted, that's not something I follow too closely.)

 

[afigg]

I like the idea of limited serivce. They could even extend it to PGH to supplement the Pennsy.

Pittsburgh Limited: NYP-NWK-TRE-PHL-LNC-HAR-ALT-JST-PGH. Possible extension to BOS. What do you think?

There is only 1 daily train connecting PHL-HAR to Pittsburgh. A second train from NYP-PHL to PGH will stop at all the busier stations on the Keystone East and all the western Keystone stations. Need more trains going to PGH before there is a "express" train that skips the less active stations. BTW, any express train on the Keystone East would stop at Paoli.

As for an Keystone service train going to BOS, that immediately runs into the mandated capacity limits on the Shore Line East segment. If the Springfield corridor was electrified a HAR to NYP to NHV to SPG train would be an interesting idea as it would connect eastern and central CT directly to Eastern Keystone stations. And connect 3 state capitals. But the Springfield corridor is a long way from electrification, so the Keystones will stay between HAR and NYP.

As for original post about an express train, that is what the weekday #642 is, departing HAR at 8 AM. That one presumably gets more business travelers headed to PHL or NYP. More express trains will mean poorer service for the smaller station stops with the current number of daily Keystones.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

I like the idea of limited serivce. They could even extend it to PGH to supplement the Pennsy.

Pittsburgh Limited: NYP-NWK-TRE-PHL-LNC-HAR-ALT-JST-PGH. Possible extension to BOS. What do you think?

There is only 1 daily train connecting PHL-HAR to Pittsburgh. A second train from NYP-PHL to PGH will stop at all the busier stations on the Keystone East and all the western Keystone stations. Need more trains going to PGH before there is a "express" train that skips the less active stations. BTW, any express train on the Keystone East would stop at Paoli.

As for an Keystone service train going to BOS, that immediately runs into the mandated capacity limits on the Shore Line East segment. If the Springfield corridor was electrified a HAR to NYP to NHV to SPG train would be an interesting idea as it would connect eastern and central CT directly to Eastern Keystone stations. And connect 3 state capitals. But the Springfield corridor is a long way from electrification, so the Keystones will stay between HAR and NYP.

As for original post about an express train, that is what the weekday #642 is, departing HAR at 8 AM. That one presumably gets more business travelers headed to PHL or NYP. More express trains will mean poorer service for the smaller station stops with the current number of daily Keystones.

While it is nice for everybody at the two endpoints, look to the Pacific Surfliner for an example of an express service that does not work. As much as Caltrans will refuse to admit it, the weekday morning 7:07 departure from San Diego has been a failure. It runs mostly empty, because it does not save any real time and was fiddled with by political interests. It is interesting that the head of the CHSRA lived in/represented Anaheim, because the northern Orange County stop was put there. Fullerton is busier than Anaheim, Solana Beach (but it's neck and neck) and Oceanside yet it is not served. Eliminating the large markets served by Santa Ana, San Juan Capistrano, and Fullerton eliminates so many city pairs. It is not just a problem having an express service. it is the fact that with an express train, it usually replaces an existing one. So while some stations are still getting served, others are not, which will further continue to reduce their ridership and cause less and less trains to stop there causing their ridership to drop....... it goes on and on. Continue adding more trains, but not at the expense of others. (Yes I understand what I said just now may have been over-exaggerated but you get the point) It is also confusing schedule wise and throws everything off.

 

[cirdan]

While it is nice for everybody at the two endpoints, look to the Pacific Surfliner for an example of an express service that does not work. As much as Caltrans will refuse to admit it, the weekday morning 7:07 departure from San Diego has been a failure. It runs mostly empty, because it does not save any real time and was fiddled with by political interests. It is interesting that the head of the CHSRA lived in/represented Anaheim, because the northern Orange County stop was put there. Fullerton is busier than Anaheim, Solana Beach (but it's neck and neck) and Oceanside yet it is not served. Eliminating the large markets served by Santa Ana, San Juan Capistrano, and Fullerton eliminates so many city pairs. It is not just a problem having an express service. it is the fact that with an express train, it usually replaces an existing one. So while some stations are still getting served, others are not, which will further continue to reduce their ridership and cause less and less trains to stop there causing their ridership to drop....... it goes on and on. Continue adding more trains, but not at the expense of others. (Yes I understand what I said just now may have been over-exaggerated but you get the point) It is also confusing schedule wise and throws everything off.

And rememeber that with the higher acceleration of an electric train, the time penalty of an additional stop is less severe than for a diesel train.

 

[jis]

A second PHL - PGH frequency is a matter of active negotiation at present between Penn DOT, NS and Amtrak.

The leading proposal appears to be timed for an early morning PHL departure getting into PGH early afternoon, and turning around and departing on a return trip a bit later in the afternoon getting into PHL in the evening. At least so it was mentioned at the Washington NARP meeting last weekend.

The other possibilities which requires an additional train to overnight at PGH is also being considered but is probably more expensive than the first choice. But nothing has been decided yet.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

A second PHL - PGH frequency is a matter of active negotiation at present between Penn DOT, NS and Amtrak.

The leading proposal appears to be timed for an early morning PHL departure getting into PGH early afternoon, and turning around and departing on a return trip a bit later in the afternoon getting into PHL in the evening. At least so it was mentioned at the Washington NARP meeting last weekend.

The other possibilities which requires an additional train to overnight at PGH is also being considered but is probably more expensive than the first choice. But nothing has been decided yet.

I understand the desirability of a second PHL-PBG train having the schedule you mention in the 'leading proposal,' as it would capture a different rider, but I'm not clear on the proposal that overnights in PBG. It seems to me to that would too closely follow #42 & #43s schedule. Is there that much demand for a second train with an AM PBG departure and an afternoon PHL departure? Would it be a third PHL-PBG train?

 

[afigg]

A second PHL - PGH frequency is a matter of active negotiation at present between Penn DOT, NS and Amtrak.

The leading proposal appears to be timed for an early morning PHL departure getting into PGH early afternoon, and turning around and departing on a return trip a bit later in the afternoon getting into PHL in the evening. At least so it was mentioned at the Washington NARP meeting last weekend.

This would be then a PHL-PGH train only with no extension to NYP? Which makes sense as that would be the only way to make it a round trip day train which by using only a single train set would be cheaper to operate. And the equipment easier to obtain. The current PHL-PGH trip times of 7:20 to 7:30, however, would make for a tight turnaround schedule in PGH.

Say the new train departs PHL at circa 7 AM, arrives PGH at circa 2:30 PM, has a tight 90 minute turnaround for quick cleaning and short buffer for getting into PGH late. Then if it departs PGH at 4 PM, it would not get to PHL until after 11 PM. The train preferably should return to PHL in time to catch a selection of northbound and southbound Regionals and SEPTA trains. The round trip schedule gets easier if Amtrak can work out a schedule with NS for a sub 7 hour PHL-PGH trip, combined with improvements on the Keystone East end. But at 7 hours, I can see where the train would have to depart PHL at 6:30 or 6 AM.

The Pennsylvanian had a substantial +11.4% increase in ridership in January after having a downturn of -4.0% for the first 3 months of the fiscal year from October to December (compared to the same periods the year before). The ending of Southwest PGH-PHL direct service may help get the politics of getting state and local support for a second PHL-PGH daily train over the hump.

 

[Nickrapak]

I think it would increase ridership if some of the trains that terminate at/originate from PHL would do so from Suburban Station. This way, commuters would be able to get a one-seat ride directly into the heart of Center City, which might persuade even more people to ride the train. The only concern would be the bottleneck at 30th Street, since they'd have to use the upper level, which has only 2 tracks per direction of travel. Once the train gets past 30th, it could lay over on Track 0, which is almost never used.

More stops at CWH would also be nice, although I'm not sure that that's the proper job for a train supported by PA, since most traffic would be out of the state.

 

[Donctor]

While it is nice for everybody at the two endpoints, look to the Pacific Surfliner for an example of an express service that does not work. As much as Caltrans will refuse to admit it, the weekday morning 7:07 departure from San Diego has been a failure. It runs mostly empty, because it does not save any real time and was fiddled with by political interests. It is interesting that the head of the CHSRA lived in/represented Anaheim, because the northern Orange County stop was put there. Fullerton is busier than Anaheim, Solana Beach (but it's neck and neck) and Oceanside yet it is not served. Eliminating the large markets served by Santa Ana, San Juan Capistrano, and Fullerton eliminates so many city pairs. It is not just a problem having an express service. it is the fact that with an express train, it usually replaces an existing one. So while some stations are still getting served, others are not, which will further continue to reduce their ridership and cause less and less trains to stop there causing their ridership to drop....... it goes on and on. Continue adding more trains, but not at the expense of others. (Yes I understand what I said just now may have been over-exaggerated but you get the point) It is also confusing schedule wise and throws everything off.

And the time saved is negligible.

 

[fairviewroad]

I think it would increase ridership if some of the trains that terminate at/originate from PHL would do so from Suburban Station. This way, commuters would be able to get a one-seat ride directly into the heart of Center City, which might persuade even more people to ride the train. The only concern would be the bottleneck at 30th Street, since they'd have to use the upper level, which has only 2 tracks per direction of travel. Once the train gets past 30th, it could lay over on Track 0, which is almost never used.

Amtrak used to do this up until the late 80's, IIRC.

In my opinion, it's not necessary. For passengers boarding at 30th St to go west, it would be confusing since some departures would be from the main concourse and some would be from the upper (SEPTA) concourse. Also, for people heading into Center City there is super-frequent SEPTA commuter rail service, and you can use your Amtrak ticket stub as valid rail fare between 30th St and Suburban or Market East Stations (not that tickets are even checked on that short segment).

As for commuters seeking a one-seat ride into Center City, that's largely provided by SEPTA Regional Rail. Yeah, there are a handful of commuters from places like Parkesburg or LNC that would benefit from that, but not everyone is even heading into Center City (many head to the University City area, for instance).

 

[AlanB]

I think it would increase ridership if some of the trains that terminate at/originate from PHL would do so from Suburban Station. This way, commuters would be able to get a one-seat ride directly into the heart of Center City, which might persuade even more people to ride the train. The only concern would be the bottleneck at 30th Street, since they'd have to use the upper level, which has only 2 tracks per direction of travel. Once the train gets past 30th, it could lay over on Track 0, which is almost never used.

The upper level of 30th Street Station has 6 tracks, 3 in each direction. The only "Philly" station with just 4 tracks is Market East, which would not be a good place at all to try and turn an Amtrak train.

The problem with running to Suburban is that you'd either have to run a diesel into that station, which SEPTA probably would not want or Amtrak would have to change to an electric engine at Harrisburg and that would slow down running times.

 

[Nickrapak]

I think it would increase ridership if some of the trains that terminate at/originate from PHL would do so from Suburban Station. This way, commuters would be able to get a one-seat ride directly into the heart of Center City, which might persuade even more people to ride the train. The only concern would be the bottleneck at 30th Street, since they'd have to use the upper level, which has only 2 tracks per direction of travel. Once the train gets past 30th, it could lay over on Track 0, which is almost never used.

The upper level of 30th Street Station has 6 tracks, 3 in each direction. The only "Philly" station with just 4 tracks is Market East, which would not be a good place at all to try and turn an Amtrak train.

The problem with running to Suburban is that you'd either have to run a diesel into that station, which SEPTA probably would not want or Amtrak would have to change to an electric engine at Harrisburg and that would slow down running times.

Yes, but the inner two tracks on the upper level go directly south, and I don't think there's a crossover to the outer sets of tracks.

As to the diesel/electric swap, doesn't all Keystone service run with electrics now? If not, then I agree that it wouldn't be a good idea.

 

[jis]

As to the diesel/electric swap, doesn't all Keystone service run with electrics now? If not, then I agree that it wouldn't be a good idea.

Trains from Pittsburgh run diesel to Philly. There is no facility anymore to change engines at Harrisburg, except in emergencies.

 

[afigg]

I think it would increase ridership if some of the trains that terminate at/originate from PHL would do so from Suburban Station. This way, commuters would be able to get a one-seat ride directly into the heart of Center City, which might persuade even more people to ride the train. The only concern would be the bottleneck at 30th Street, since they'd have to use the upper level, which has only 2 tracks per direction of travel. Once the train gets past 30th, it could lay over on Track 0, which is almost never used.

The upper level of 30th Street Station has 6 tracks, 3 in each direction. The only "Philly" station with just 4 tracks is Market East, which would not be a good place at all to try and turn an Amtrak train.

The problem with running to Suburban is that you'd either have to run a diesel into that station, which SEPTA probably would not want or Amtrak would have to change to an electric engine at Harrisburg and that would slow down running times.

What are the rules on running a diesel into Suburban Station? Academic question, though, because I don't see Amtrak going to the operational trouble of moving a train into Suburban Station if it is the only daily train to do so. The PHL-PGH train would then have to use the upper track platforms at 30th Street north of the main hall, which would confuse people who are used to only getting on Amtrak at the lower platforms.

No, a PHL-PGH train should stick to departing from the lower platforms. With no need to reverse the train direction at PHL, it would not need a cab car. Another cost saving item for a direct PHL-PGH train.

Trimming the trip time for a PHL-PGH round trip train where possible will improve the round trip scheduling and increase ridership. What is needed, beyond the funded HSIPR projects, for 15-20 minute trip time reductions on the electrified Keystone East was summarized in the PA DOT applications for the FL HSR funds. Another $200 million or so beyond what was granted for the Keystone East along with station upgrades.

Checking the Planthekeystone website, I see the Keystone Corridor West Feasibility Study was expected to be completed in winter 2011-2012. Well, since it now officially the spring of 2012, they missed their projected release date. If the study contractor has not slipped too much, we should have a feasibility study report for HAR-PGH improvements and rough cost estimates to mull over soon.

 

[AlanB]

I think it would increase ridership if some of the trains that terminate at/originate from PHL would do so from Suburban Station. This way, commuters would be able to get a one-seat ride directly into the heart of Center City, which might persuade even more people to ride the train. The only concern would be the bottleneck at 30th Street, since they'd have to use the upper level, which has only 2 tracks per direction of travel. Once the train gets past 30th, it could lay over on Track 0, which is almost never used.

The upper level of 30th Street Station has 6 tracks, 3 in each direction. The only "Philly" station with just 4 tracks is Market East, which would not be a good place at all to try and turn an Amtrak train.

The problem with running to Suburban is that you'd either have to run a diesel into that station, which SEPTA probably would not want or Amtrak would have to change to an electric engine at Harrisburg and that would slow down running times.

Yes, but the inner two tracks on the upper level go directly south, and I don't think there's a crossover to the outer sets of tracks.

There is no crossover between the tracks from the west & the tracks from the south on the west side of the station. However, my point is that if SEPTA can fit all those trains through the 4 track Market East Station, then there must be room for a couple of Amtrak trains on the 4 tracks to/from the west. If those tracks were at capacity, then there would be no room to merge in trains coming from the tracks to the south prior to reaching Market East.

As to the diesel/electric swap, doesn't all Keystone service run with electrics now? If not, then I agree that it wouldn't be a good idea.

My apologies here; your post directly followed a post about the train to Pittsburgh, so I assumed that was the train you were referring too, as that train would need to change engines or smoke up Suburban. The Keystones themselves all do run with electrics today.

 

[afigg]

Trains from Pittsburgh run diesel to Philly. There is no facility anymore to change engines at Harrisburg, except in emergencies.

Just to stir things up, the Pennsylvanian and a PHL-PGH train would be interesting candidates to run ALP-45DP dual electric/diesel locomotives on. Amtrak could contract with NJ Transit to do the major maintenance on the locomotives. Saves on diesel fuel to Harrisburg and a engine swap at 30th Street for the Pennsylvanian. Amtrak could get PA DOT to help cover the cost of leasing the ALP-45DPs. I realize that this is an idea that Amtrak is unlikely to pursue or adopt, but figured I would throw it out there.

A question I have is what would be a good name for the PHL-PGH train? Could call it the Pennsylvanian of course, but the Pennsylvanian has been a NYP to PGH train for many years. A PHL-PGH train would not go to NYP, which could be confusing if it were also called the Pennsylvanian. It might be best to either give PHL-PGH a new name or call it the Pennsylvanian and rename the current Pennsylvanian to something else. Are there old historical names to consider for a PHL-PGH only service?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

The train should go on to NYP. A old PRR NYP-PGH train was called the Pittsburgher. another one was the Pittsburgh Night Express. BTW, PGH is not PGB!