Hypothetical Keystone Limited

[DivMiler]

Thanks for the answer about how much time might be saved from HAR to PHL. I didn't expect the thread expanding to discussion of Pittsburgh service and Suburban Station!

Is there a functional difference between "Limited" service and "Express" service in general railroad-speak?

 

[jis]

Amtrak's guy who is in charge of NEC Capital Programs is on record saying that they have looked at the ALP45DP and decided that they do not want to have anything to do with it. It costs too much to buy and maintain and is inconsistent with Amtrak's plans. Just reporting what I heard.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Limited is usually faster than Express. Also, Limiteds are more American while Expresses are mainly foreign.

 

[Eric S]

Thanks for the answer about how much time might be saved from HAR to PHL. I didn't expect the thread expanding to discussion of Pittsburgh service and Suburban Station!

Is there a functional difference between "Limited" service and "Express" service in general railroad-speak?

Today, I would suggest that "Limited" and "Express" are used somewhat interchangeably. In the past, not so much.

In a transit (as opposed to strictly railroad) sense, "Limited" would often suggest a service that makes some but not all stops over the duration of the route, and "Express" would suggest a service that makes all stops along a portion of the route, and then runs nonstop over a portion of the route.

 

[benjibear]

I beleive all Keystones run with electrics but the Pennsylvanian is electric from PHL -NYP and swaps to diesel in Philly. At least this was the way they did it a year ago. I guess the advantage is they rather have a longer change over in Philly and that is where the maintenance occurs?

 

[Donctor]

I beleive all Keystones run with electrics but the Pennsylvanian is electric from PHL -NYP and swaps to diesel in Philly. At least this was the way they did it a year ago. I guess the advantage is they rather have a longer change over in Philly and that is where the maintenance occurs?

Yes. Harrisburg doesn't really have the facilities (or engines) at this point.

 

[Gfoley4]

I think it would increase ridership if some of the trains that terminate at/originate from PHL would do so from Suburban Station. This way, commuters would be able to get a one-seat ride directly into the heart of Center City, which might persuade even more people to ride the train. The only concern would be the bottleneck at 30th Street, since they'd have to use the upper level, which has only 2 tracks per direction of travel. Once the train gets past 30th, it could lay over on Track 0, which is almost never used.

The upper level of 30th Street Station has 6 tracks, 3 in each direction. The only "Philly" station with just 4 tracks is Market East, which would not be a good place at all to try and turn an Amtrak train.

The problem with running to Suburban is that you'd either have to run a diesel into that station, which SEPTA probably would not want or Amtrak would have to change to an electric engine at Harrisburg and that would slow down running times.

What are the rules on running a diesel into Suburban Station? Academic question, though, because I don't see Amtrak going to the operational trouble of moving a train into Suburban Station if it is the only daily train to do so. The PHL-PGH train would then have to use the upper track platforms at 30th Street north of the main hall, which would confuse people who are used to only getting on Amtrak at the lower platforms.

No, a PHL-PGH train should stick to departing from the lower platforms. With no need to reverse the train direction at PHL, it would not need a cab car. Another cost saving item for a direct PHL-PGH train.

Trimming the trip time for a PHL-PGH round trip train where possible will improve the round trip scheduling and increase ridership. What is needed, beyond the funded HSIPR projects, for 15-20 minute trip time reductions on the electrified Keystone East was summarized in the PA DOT applications for the FL HSR funds. Another $200 million or so beyond what was granted for the Keystone East along with station upgrades.

Checking the Planthekeystone website, I see the Keystone Corridor West Feasibility Study was expected to be completed in winter 2011-2012. Well, since it now officially the spring of 2012, they missed their projected release date. If the study contractor has not slipped too much, we should have a feasibility study report for HAR-PGH improvements and rough cost estimates to mull over soon.

From the Market East Station Wikipedia page, which I would assume would apply to Suburban Station, "Overhead electric catenary wires supply power to the trains. Due to ventilation issues, diesel trains do not stop in the station, but sometimes a SEPTA diesel work train will go through the station without stopping. In this situation, the track must be clear through the tunnel before the diesel train is allowed through."

 

[benjibear]

I have a crazy idea, let's run New York - Chicago and call it the Broadway Limited!

 

[fairviewroad]

Is there a functional difference between "Limited" service and "Express" service in general railroad-speak?

If there was at some point, it's completely lost in the age of Amtrak. Consider:

Amtrak's "Express" trains are the Acela Express, the Ethan Allen Express, and one morning Surfliner departure. It's hard to imagine three more different types of

services, yet they all bear the "express" nomenclature.

"Limited" trains once referred to fast overnight trains that linked big cities ("20th Century Limited, Broadway Limited, etc.") These skipped some of the stops made by milk-run

trains along the same route. But now, Amtrak gives the "Limited" designation to 3 trains: Capitol Limited, Lake Shore Limited, and Sunset Limited. The former two, at least, do

skip some stops made by corridor trains along portions of their routes, but they are no longer the premium alternatives to similar trains between the city pairs. And the Sunset Limited,

of course, does not get anywhere fast at all.

 

[Acela150]

Trains from Pittsburgh run diesel to Philly. There is no facility anymore to change engines at Harrisburg, except in emergencies.

Just to stir things up, the Pennsylvanian and a PHL-PGH train would be interesting candidates to run ALP-45DP dual electric/diesel locomotives on. Amtrak could contract with NJ Transit to do the major maintenance on the locomotives. Saves on diesel fuel to Harrisburg and a engine swap at 30th Street for the Pennsylvanian. Amtrak could get PA DOT to help cover the cost of leasing the ALP-45DPs. I realize that this is an idea that Amtrak is unlikely to pursue or adopt, but figured I would throw it out there.

UGH!! h34r: WHYYYYY!!! :blink:

Why is it that everytime someone see's a gap in electric to diesel service they automatically jump to the ALP-45DP... The Unit hasn't even proven it can run by it's self and let alone in service.. IMHO it's a waste of money if it hasn't proven itself.. Also Amtrak's relationship with Bombardier isn't a good one since AE and the HHP's.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I have a crazy idea, let's run New York - Chicago and call it the Broadway Limited!

You know what, that would be awesome. Amtrak is already planning through cars, so a separate train is possible. However, this is not the right thread to discuss it.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

However, this is not the right thread to discuss it.

Dude, its never stopped us in the past. The threads here often have more twists and turns than the UP over Donner Pass. Its part of what makes reading the threads here so interesting IMHO.

 

[Acela150]

I have a crazy idea, let's run New York - Chicago and call it the Broadway Limited!

You know what, that would be awesome. Amtrak is already planning through cars, so a separate train is possible. However, this is not the right thread to discuss it.

Haha I'll start!! Two or three F40's a ton of mail cars and heritage cars and were all set!!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I have a crazy idea, let's run New York - Chicago and call it the Broadway Limited!

You know what, that would be awesome. Amtrak is already planning through cars, so a separate train is possible. However, this is not the right thread to discuss it.

Haha I'll start!! Two or three F40's a ton of mail cars and heritage cars and were all set!!

All of which are sold/dilapidated/scrapped/crashed!

 

[Acela150]

I have a crazy idea, let's run New York - Chicago and call it the Broadway Limited!

You know what, that would be awesome. Amtrak is already planning through cars, so a separate train is possible. However, this is not the right thread to discuss it.

Haha I'll start!! Two or three F40's a ton of mail cars and heritage cars and were all set!!

All of which are sold/dilapidated/scrapped/crashed!

Buzzkill.... hboy: We can't dream?? :help: Can we now?? :wub:

 

[Lackawanna565]

When Amtrak gets Acela's replacement in. They should use these trains over the line and upgrade the catenary wire and tracks for higher speeds. I know they are planning to increase speeds to 125mph. There was Penn Live article about running trains at 150 over the line. Acela's tilting mechanism could come in handing around MP 52.

 

[jis]

When Amtrak gets Acela's replacement in. They should use these trains over the line and upgrade the catenary wire and tracks for higher speeds. I know they are planning to increase speeds to 125mph. There was Penn Live article about running trains at 150 over the line. Acela's tilting mechanism could come in handing around MP 52.

I don't think the Acelas are going to get displaced from the NEC before the early '20s, at the very earliest. Currently they only have plans for acquiring upto 11 Acela II sets to augment Acela Service on the NEC, not to displace any current Acela sets. The current Acela Sets are going to get two additional Business Class cars each with a complete refurbishment for the rest of the cars, in the next two to three years.

 

[AlanB]

The current Acela Sets are going to get two additional Business Class cars each with a complete refurbishment for the rest of the cars, in the next two to three years.

Really? :unsure:

They just got done refurbishing the existing sets. Seems a bit early to start doing it all over again, even with the heavy use they get.

 

[Acela150]

The current Acela Sets are going to get two additional Business Class cars each with a complete refurbishment for the rest of the cars, in the next two to three years.

Really? :unsure:

They just got done refurbishing the existing sets. Seems a bit early to start doing it all over again, even with the heavy use they get.

It was a good 10 years before the full overhaul IINM. Alan your correct they just had a full overhaul with in the past two years. They finished ahead of schedule IIRC. I could see minor things being done in a few years. Maybe Pan replacement. Paint and Decals on the Power Cars and Passenger Cars. Maybe a few other things.

 

[afigg]

When Amtrak gets Acela's replacement in. They should use these trains over the line and upgrade the catenary wire and tracks for higher speeds. I know they are planning to increase speeds to 125mph. There was Penn Live article about running trains at 150 over the line. Acela's tilting mechanism could come in handing around MP 52.

I don't think the Acelas are going to get displaced from the NEC before the early '20s, at the very earliest. Currently they only have plans for acquiring upto 11 Acela II sets to augment Acela Service on the NEC, not to displace any current Acela sets. The current Acela Sets are going to get two additional Business Class cars each with a complete refurbishment for the rest of the cars, in the next two to three years.

Besides the lack of high level platforms on the Keystone East corridor until all the stations get upgraded, I think the question with the idea of running the Acelas to Harrisburg should be whether it would be worth it? Harrisburg and Lancaster are not Washington DC or Boston for a customer base that will pay higher Acela ticket prices. I have not seen cost numbers, but I would venture that the Acela costs notably more to operate per seat than a Regional. Even when the Acelas are extended with 2 more coach cars. Even if the Acelas are replaced with all new HSR trainsets on the NEC and available for re-assignment, if the Acela trainsets cost more to operate than a Keystone with Amfleet or new standard coach cars, would PA want to pay extra for them for Keystone service?

The Keystone East is only 105 miles to Harrisburg. How much benefit would be gained from running an Acela trainset to HAR, even if it could go > 125 mph? Perhaps there might be a market for a early morning and late afternoon Keystone Acela service with premium prices between HAR-PHL-NYP, but an extensive market and cost analysis would have to be done first. Now, if there was an electrified corridor all the way to Pittsburgh, the idea of running an Acela over the entire corridor would be a different matter. But there isn't.

 

[AlanB]

When Amtrak gets Acela's replacement in. They should use these trains over the line and upgrade the catenary wire and tracks for higher speeds. I know they are planning to increase speeds to 125mph. There was Penn Live article about running trains at 150 over the line. Acela's tilting mechanism could come in handing around MP 52.

I don't think the Acelas are going to get displaced from the NEC before the early '20s, at the very earliest. Currently they only have plans for acquiring upto 11 Acela II sets to augment Acela Service on the NEC, not to displace any current Acela sets. The current Acela Sets are going to get two additional Business Class cars each with a complete refurbishment for the rest of the cars, in the next two to three years.

Besides the lack of high level platforms on the Keystone East corridor until all the stations get upgraded, I think the question with the idea of running the Acelas to Harrisburg should be whether it would be worth it? Harrisburg and Lancaster are not Washington DC or Boston for a customer base that will pay higher Acela ticket prices. I have not seen cost numbers, but I would venture that the Acela costs notably more to operate per seat than a Regional. Even when the Acelas are extended with 2 more coach cars. Even if the Acelas are replaced with all new HSR trainsets on the NEC and available for re-assignment, if the Acela trainsets cost more to operate than a Keystone with Amfleet or new standard coach cars, would PA want to pay extra for them for Keystone service?

The Keystone East is only 105 miles to Harrisburg. How much benefit would be gained from running an Acela trainset to HAR, even if it could go > 125 mph? Perhaps there might be a market for a early morning and late afternoon Keystone Acela service with premium prices between HAR-PHL-NYP, but an extensive market and cost analysis would have to be done first. Now, if there was an electrified corridor all the way to Pittsburgh, the idea of running an Acela over the entire corridor would be a different matter. But there isn't.

Afigg,

I think that the point that Lackawana was going for is that when Acela is replaced by a new train on the NEC, that the Acela trainsets are sent over to work the Keystone run as a replacement for what runs there today. Therefore most likely the FC seats would be replaced with BC seats at a minimum, and perhaps the cafe would even be pulled. So it would not be marketed as an "Acela" service, but rather simply a faster Keystone service.

Of course the odds are good that by the time Amtrak can buy a replacement to the Acela's, they'll have been run into the ground so badly that retirement will be the only option.

 

[benjibear]

It will be a long time before the Acela train sets run on the Keystone.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Once, while visiting the Keystone Corridor, I saw an Acela set running at slow speed down the line. Any idea what that was for?

 

[Acela150]

Once, while visiting the Keystone Corridor, I saw an Acela set running at slow speed down the line. Any idea what that was for?

They used to test on the line. The curves through Gap would serve as a true test to the tilting on the train.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

I like the idea of limited serivce. They could even extend it to PGH to supplement the Pennsy.

Pittsburgh Limited: NYP-NWK-TRE-PHL-LNC-HAR-ALT-JST-PGH. Possible extension to BOS. What do you think?

I would add Lewistown back in to the list. It's an hour after HAR and an hour before ALT.... a bus company also just added shuttle service from Lewistown - State College

Latrobe and Tyrone are already flag stops each direction, but I have not once been on the Penny and not had it stop.