Hiawatha Service: Amtrak, Wisconsin looking to add train runs

[Superliner Diner]

From Milwaukee, WI Journal-Sentinel, 4/19/07:

Chicago - If Chicago lands the 2016 Olympic Games, Amtrak could justify expanding service to run hourly passenger trains between Milwaukee and Chicago, Wisconsin Transportation Secretary Frank Busalacchi said Thursday.

Story is here.

 

[MrFSS]

From Milwaukee, WI Journal-Sentinel, 4/19/07:

Chicago - If Chicago lands the 2016 Olympic Games, Amtrak could justify expanding service to run hourly passenger trains between Milwaukee and Chicago, Wisconsin Transportation Secretary Frank Busalacchi said Thursday.

Story is here.

I was just reading another story that said Chicago may have problems landing the games because of the US Homeland Security requirements that many foreigners be finger printed upon arrival in the US. Many of them don't want to be finger printed and this could make for big problems. There are some Iranians the US Olympic Committee has invited in to practice and they don't want to be finger printed and it may keep them out. Full Story is HERE

 

[Mark]

I'm sure WI/IL/Amtrak would come to some sort of an agreement to add extra trains should Chicago be selected for the Olympics. Folks headed in from abroad could stay in Milwaukee for less than Chicago and use the Hia. That being said, they need to add an extra car on to the existing runs now but I don't see how they could add an eight round trip, the early AM Hia and the late PMs are not nearly as full as the rush hour ones. The 315p out of Chicago on Fridays is usually packed!

I think they need to start increasing the speed of this route up to 110, or at least on the section between Glenview and Sturtevant- if they could shave the time they could get that extra turn on the equipment and perhaps get almost hourly service unlike the every other hour they have now.

 

[Superliner Diner]

I do wonder why they have to use the possibility of Chicago getting the 2016 Olympics as a reason or excuse for starting more frequent service. The Olympics, while very large on the international front, is an event that is over in about 2 weeks. After all of the athletes, media, and spectators leave the area, are they going to eliminate the service they added?

 

[rtabern]

WOW, it would be seriously about time if they added another train... or even a few more!!!

While the 6am train from MKE-CHI is really nice on Saturdays, most other times of the day on Hiawatha you can barely find a seat... and definetly not two seats together. During the holidays, I've seen it at "standing room only" a few times. (it's UNRESERVED so it can get that way).

My suggestion would be to have some early-morning or late-night service.

Right now, the last train out of Chicago leaves at a little after 8:00PM.

That's not do-able if you want to go to Chicago to catch a play or have a late dinner or something... not to mention if your connection on a west-coast train is really late (like the Zephyr).

It would be nice to have maybe a 10:00PM depature too --- atleast on the weekend???

I would also recommend better connections in the morning too!!

I mean the first arrival into Chicago isn't until 8:00AM... meaning you miss the early-morning train connections to Springfield, IL (which departs at 7AM) or the early morning connection to Quincy (which leaves at 7:35AM)

Just some thoughts from a very frequent Hiawatha rider.

Robert

 

[AmtrakFan]

Robert,

I do agree that there needs to be late night service. As a frequent rider (I go up and see relatives), I have been on trains that are as empty and many more that are full. A few have been SRO. First it would help if there was like a 4:15PM and maybe a 10:00PM or 10:30PM on FriSatSun.

 

[Juilie]

Robert,

I totally agree with you. Another morning train, around 7 a.m., and a late-night train, around 10 p.m., would be fantastic. I wrote the Wis. Dept. of Transportation to suggest it, and got a reply back ... the state wants to do it, but it comes down to money. Without funds to upgrade the tracks, as Canadian Pacific demands, and money to buy more trains and add staff, Wisconsin can 't afford to do it.

More trains would be super, though.

 

[CraigDK]

I wasn't sure if I should start a new thread or resurrect this one....

Wisconsin DOT has released a draft EA for public review and comment for increasing Hiawatha Service to 10 daily round trips.

http://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/multimodal/rail-chi-mil/documents.aspx

It's 210 pages without the appendices. The build alternative, in addition to about a dozen route improvements, includes acquiring 3 set of the N-S bi-levels.

 

[Palmetto]

These are good proposals. But: has anyone talked to the host railroad yet? Canadian Pacific??

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

The question I always ask, in this specific case, have they looked at extending Metra to Milwaukee (I can't read 200 pages right now) to partially meet the need? It would add another route (i.e. some robustness and redundancy) and add towns with access to both destinations.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

It would add service to downtown Racine WI as well.

 

[CraigDK]

These are good proposals. But: has anyone talked to the host railroad yet? Canadian Pacific??

Yes. The EA includes the conclusions (for example the needed infrastructure improvements for the increased service level) reached at multiple meetings that included Canadian Pacific, Metra, Amtrak, etc.

See page 198 for a list of all Railroad Stakeholder meetings in which Canadian Pacific participated in.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Metra service to Milwaukee isn't a bad idea, but it would certainly not be competitive time-wise with the Hiawathas or driving. Right now, Chicago-Kenosha trains take a little under two hours. Getting to Milwaukee would probably take another 45 minutes to an hour depending on how many stops are made. Cost of the trip would be dependent on how much Wisconsin wants to subsidize the service. There have been numerous plans for an extension to Milwaukee over the years, but they have all crashed and burned since the cheeseheads don't want to pay for it.

As far as adding $2 to rush hour service on the Hiawathas, it's hardily a problem. It just like those commuter lines that charge full price at rush hour, but offer discounts during the off-hours.

 

[Eric S]

The question I always ask, in this specific case, have they looked at extending Metra to Milwaukee (I can't read 200 pages right now) to partially meet the need? It would add another route (i.e. some robustness and redundancy) and add towns with access to both destinations.

There was a plan to add a Kenosha-Racine-Milwaukee commuter rail service (KRM) but it was dropped/canceled a number of years ago. It would have had timed transfers at Kenosha to/from Metra trains. I can't recall what travel times would have been.

One issue with running actual Metra trains through from Chicago to Milwaukee is that the consist size would either be too large at the north (Milwaukee end of the route) or too small at the south (Chicago) end of the route - not unlike NJT New York-Trenton vs. SEPTA Trenton-Philadelphia.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

I think an express train could make it in about 2 hours-2 hours 15 minutes. The fastest train to Kenosha is about 1 hour 25 minutes currently. The only stops on an express could be Evanston Davis Street, Waukegan, Kenosha, and Racine.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

What about an express Hiawatha, i.e. non-stop?

 

[railiner]

How long did the old C&NW "400's" take between Chicago and Milwaukee?

And what if any intermediate stops did they make?

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I think they were just under an hour, they maxed out at like 100 MPH or so.

 

[NorthShore]

One issue with running actual Metra trains through from Chicago to Milwaukee is that the consist size would either be too large at the north (Milwaukee end of the route) or too small at the south (Chicago) end of the route - not unlike NJT New York-Trenton vs. SEPTA Trenton-Philadelphia.

So cut/add cars at some mid-point. Metra used to do that on various lines where multi-car service wasn't warranted on outlying branches. South Shore still does it at Michigan City for service from or continuing to South Bend.

 

[Eric S]

What about an express Hiawatha, i.e. non-stop?

Not sure an express (nonstop) Hiawatha makes sense unless we're talking about a situation where we already have hourly service. Extremely limited-stop Amtrak trains haven't been particularly successful elsewhere - I'm thinking specifically of the Express San Diegan/Pacific Surfliners and Express Metroliners/Acela Expresses.

How long did the old C&NW "400's" take between Chicago and Milwaukee?

And what if any intermediate stops did they make?

Looking at a C&NW timetable from 1965, it looks like they took 1:30 to 1:45, depending on the number of stops. The fastest trains only stopped at Racine, Kenosha, and Waukegan, with a couple stopping at Evanston too, and others adding additional stations. Not sure about travel times in other years though.

One issue with running actual Metra trains through from Chicago to Milwaukee is that the consist size would either be too large at the north (Milwaukee end of the route) or too small at the south (Chicago) end of the route - not unlike NJT New York-Trenton vs. SEPTA Trenton-Philadelphia.

So cut/add cars at some mid-point. Metra used to do that on various lines where multi-car service wasn't warranted on outlying branches. South Shore still does it at Michigan City for service from or continuing to South Bend.

That certainly *could* be done - I guess the question is how likely it would actually be considered for a new/extended service. I *think* the initial KRM studies considered paying Metra to extend trains north from Waukegan/Kenosha to Milwaukee but decided it would be cheaper to run a stand-alone service between Kenosha and Milwaukee, with timed connections to/from Metra. I don't recall whether adding/dropping cars to/from Metra trains was considered.

 

[amtrakpass]

I would like to see one additonal stop on the Hiawatha's in between Glenview and Sturtevant. Maybe around Gurnee or so. Don't know if it's ever been discussed. Just seems like too long a gap for a local train. And with some good population in thr northern suburbs i would guess you would pick up a pretty fair number of riders where it wouldn't make sense to drive to the closest station now.

 

[Palmetto]

If you are using the term "local train" to describe a shorter run, ok. OTOH, Amtrak trains are supposed to be "inter-city" as opposed to "local". Metra would be the agency to establish service in Gurney, I would think.

 

[Eric S]

At various times over the years there has been discussion of extending Metra service north from Rondout (where the current MD-N Line splits from the Hiawatha and heads northwest) through Gurnee to Wadsworth and also of adding Hiawatha stops at Metra's Lake-Cook Road station and/or near Kenosha. However I don't believe any of the recent/ongoing Hiawatha studies have looked at adding additional stops.

 

[railiner]

I suppose that's why NJT and SEPTA never "interlined" or pooled thru trains between New York and Philly....not to mention host Amtrak might take a dim view of the "competition" over their ROW....

 

[reppin_the_847]

At various times over the years there has been discussion of extending Metra service north from Rondout (where the current MD-N Line splits from the Hiawatha and heads northwest) through Gurnee to Wadsworth and also of adding Hiawatha stops at Metra's Lake-Cook Road station and/or near Kenosha. However I don't believe any of the recent/ongoing Hiawatha studies have looked at adding additional stops.

I have heard that the following two changes might occur at some point (might take some time), but here they are:

* The Glenview stop may be moved a couple miles north to the North Glenview Metra stop to alleviate congestion in downtown Glenview. In order for this to occur, they'll need to do the following:

• A new switch and universal crossover would be installed for Metra’s Milwaukee District North tracks south of Dewes Street. Trains switching tracks could be noisy and disturb the predominantly residential area.
• To accommodate the additional Amtrak trains on the Metra tracks and alleviate existing service delays, Canadian Pacific freight trains would be held on the Union Pacific tracks in west Glenview.

See these links:

http://glenview.il.us/Pages/hiawatha.aspx

http://jwcdaily.com/2016/04/26/glenview-seeks-federal-transportation-grant-to-move-amtrak-stop-to-the-glen/

Lastly, this may be further out in the future, but I do believe that an extra stop will be added in between Glenview (IL) & Sturtevant (WI). Nope, it won't be Gurnee with its nearby Six Flags, Gurnee Mills, etc. Rather, it looks like it will be the more logical Lake Forest. I'd say this makes sense since the area surrounding the western Lake Forest Metra stop has quite a few corporate employment options. I could see commuters from both Milwaukee & Chicago utilizing this stop at times to reach the area for business-related purposes. In order for this stop to become a reality, a pricey overpass must be created:

http://jwcdaily.com/2016/03/09/amtrak-may-stop-in-lake-forest-with-dolds-help/

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/lake-forest/news/ct-lfr-metra-underpass-funding-tl-1022-20151020-story.html

This is probably extremely rare, but it appears the Amtrak Hiawatha has dropped off a passenger at Lake Forest in the past (although it was NOT a scheduled stop):

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,3849590