Hiawatha running with 2 cafe cars

[rtabern]

I had the day off today (1/21/2011) and took the Hiawatha down to Glenview to visit my dad and step-mom. My trains were fine, but I heard one set of equipment died somewhere up near Sturtevant. I know some of the trains (atleast one trip) was cancelled and people were put on much delayed buses.

Anyway, coming home, on #341, the 8:30PM Hiawatha out of Glenview, I would have had the bad train set, but it looked like Amtrak threw together a bunch of cars quickly to get the train off on time. It was quite an interesting consist -- the locomotive was a 500-series yard engine, following by an Horizon Dinette (with all booths on both halfs of the car and menus behind the counter from the Lake Shore's Boston leg), 4 Horizon cars (normal consist), and an Amfleet cafe/business class car, with a cabbage engine on the back (normal consist).

I took up residence in the Business Class seats in the Amfleet -- why not right?? Esp since it was no extra cost. It was nice to see an Amfleet cafe/business class car on the Hiawatha, even though no one was behind the counter and there was no food.

I *REALLY* wish Amtrak would consider putting a cafe/business class car on the Hiawatha Service trains. All it would take would be 2 additional cafe/business class cars... which they must have sitting around in Chicago since they were on the train tonight. The other thing is -- it wouldn't cost Amtrak anything additional to staff the cars -- instead of having the LSA push a cart through the train -- they'd just work out of the cafe area. No additional manpower really or pay. And, yes, while some might argue that the Hiawatha is too short to put a cafe car on -- I disagree. I think the regulars and non-regulars alike would appreciate a good steaming hot cup of coffee on the Hiawatha. And, I think people who are in a hurry going to sightsee in Chicago could get lunch or dinner on the train if they wanted and hit the ground running sightseeing in Chicago instead of stopping for a meal. PLUS, by selling business class seats in the car -- it would mean more money for Amtrak. I certainly would pay an extra $9 to ride in business class from MKE to CHI and get a 1x1 nice leather reclining seat.

Regardless, it was nice to have the BC seating on the Hiawatha tonight.

Railfans -- tonight's #341 will likely be tomorrow's (1/22/2011) #330 going into Chicago if you want to check it out.

I am not sure if the consist will keep running for awhile, or if they will pull it out of service when #330 arrives into Chicago tomorrow and send #331 out with a regular consist. But, check it out if you can.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

It would cost to much to haul that car, and selling BC seats at nine bucks a pop won't make up for the food losses or the cost of haulage. End of story.

 

[bretton88]

The only way it would work would be if it was purely for premium seating only. No food or perks. Then maybe Amtrak would make money off BC on the hiawathas. I'd actually pay 9$ extra for the 2x1 seating only.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

You can't get the 2-1 seating without using one of the "Club" cars, and regular BC seating would only work if you could get a free beverage and paper.

For $9 a seat, you could get a maximum of $162 in additional revenue, plus rail fare around $180. $342 each way wouldn't cover the cost of haulage and food loss.

You could, hypothetically, have the LSA with the cart give newspapers and drinks out in a regular 2-2 Amfleet BC car, that might be worth while-- and the BC would still be an upgrade over the Horizon coaches.

 

[Eric S]

Are you suggesting adding a 7th car to the Hiawatha trainsets (6 coaches, 1 BC/cafe car)? Or replacing one of the 6 coaches with a BC/cafe car?

It would seem either approach would be at least somewhat problematic. Add a car, and you have the increased haulage costs ALC has mentioned. Replace an existing coach and you reduce seating capacity, and that would be a problem on at least a few of the trips each day (at least the morning runs to Chicago and afternoon/evening runs to Milwaukee).

That being said, as a fairly regular rider of Hiawatha trains, I certainly wouldn't mind if a 7th car was added to each trainset, so long as the costs were covered somehow.

 

[rtabern]

Well, why does running business class cars to Michigan, St. Louis, or especially Quincy make sense -- but not Milwaukee?? I know the run to Milwaukee is much shorter in distance -- but I think you have more business people riding from Chicago to Milwaukee than you do from Chicago to St. Louis, Detroit -- or again -- especially Quincy.

Everytime I am on #381 or #382 (Carl Sandburg), I see that business class section of that train almost empty. The reason I believe for that is most of the people riding that train are college students going to colleges in Galsburg, Macomb, or Quincy... and most of the time college students are going to pay for Business Class.

I think the Business Class car would do better on the Hiawatha than on #381 and #382.

Here in the Midwest, I have NEVER really seem them using AmfleetII cars that are all business class seating -- the standard car is the one with 6 tables, the cafe area, and 12-14 business class seats in 2x1 fashion.

I dont know if it would be better to add a 7th car -- or make one of the 6 cars a cafe car -- haven't given that much though.

However, I dont really see how a cafe car could not make money on the Hiawatha Service. It would *NOT* cost that much more to add a 7th car on the train or to put a BC car on instead of one of the coaches. The biggest cost in such a propoal would be labor, but you already have LSAs on the train -- so instead of pushing a cart they would be a cafe car attendant. $0 cost there!! It would be a money maker for Amtrak because they could sell seats at a higher rate.

 

[Exiled in Express]

I dont know if it would be better to add a 7th car -- or make one of the 6 cars a cafe car -- haven't given that much though.

However, I dont really see how a cafe car could not make money on the Hiawatha Service. It would *NOT* cost that much more to add a 7th car on the train or to put a BC car on instead of one of the coaches. The biggest cost in such a propoal would be labor, but you already have LSAs on the train -- so instead of pushing a cart they would be a cafe car attendant. $0 cost there!! It would be a money maker for Amtrak because they could sell seats at a higher rate.

Financially I think it would have to be a replacement of the sixth car. Marty, the LSA, only works select runs ( 2 roundtrips M-F?) so the car would either be dead weight or require another employee on the other runs. Given a 90 minute run, an opening/closing inventory would kill the idea. Does the accounting allow for a simple recording of sale dollars or must a stock inventory be taken on every run?

 

[jphjaxfl]

In pre-Amtrak times, both Milwaukee Road and the Northwestern had Parlor Car Service (first class) between Chicago and Milwaukee that was well patronized. I would think adding business class at a higher addition than $9 would attract some business people to travel by train.

 

[Trogdor]

The capacity on the Hiawatha is determined by the contract with the States of Wisconsin/Illinois. If they wanted a seventh car, they'd have to pay for it. Same thing with the type of food service offered.

An extra car impacts the weight of the train, not only in fuel used, but also in acceleration. There's also the issue of added maintenance costs of running an extra car.

The cart service is a very simple service that sells items that don't need refrigeration or preparation. If you changed to a cafe car, you'd either have to change the menu to offer those other items (I don't know how that would impact the costs/revenues of the service), or you could keep the same menu, but waste the rest of the car.

Business class seating might sell on trains 330 and 339 (especially the latter, which has standees on occasion). If it sells out, assuming a $9 upgrade (which is awfully steep, a 40% upcharge vs. the regular fare, I don't know any other route that has that high of a business class accommodation charge), that's $131 or $145 per trip (depending on if it's a 14-seat car or a 15-seat car). That's compared to the $6000-7000 or so in regular ticket revenue that a full train can get (the exact number is difficult to gauge, because of the number of monthly pass and ten-ride tickets sold, vs. full-fare tickets).

Also, it would be wrong to assume that, because you wind up with a food-service car or two in an emergency situation, these cars are available for use all the time. Whenever a Hiawatha breaks down and gets replaced by a different Midwest train's consist, they have to scramble to put together equipment for that other train. Sometimes, this means that the other train winds up departing late (though it's a better trade-off to have one train leave late than to lose a couple of round-trips on the Hiawatha).

Besides, I wouldn't look to see any consist changes to the Hiawatha in the near future. Your genius state decided to put its equipment eggs in the Talgo basket, where the new trains will have less capacity than the current consists. What would be the point in adding capacity to the route now, only to take it away when the new stuff arrives?

 

[rrdude]

The capacity on the Hiawatha is determined by the contract with the States of Wisconsin/Illinois................

............Your genius state decided to put its equipment eggs in the Talgo basket, .....................

 

[fredevad]

Everything else aside, how does adding an extra car automatically add to fuel costs? I understand adding more weight to my car adds to my fuel costs, but my car has an infinite number of accelerator positions and the engine mechanically powers the drive wheels, whereas the locomotive has 8 "notch" (step) positions which drive a generator to generate electricity to power the wheels and provide power to the cars. Would adding just one car mean running the locomotive at a higher notch?

 

[Trogdor]

F = m*a. Increasing the mass (weight) of the train either requires higher force for the same acceleration, or it results in a slower acceleration. If the acceleration is slower, then it has to stay in notch 8 longer to get to speed. Is it a significant difference? Not really, but it is there.

I guess someone was paying attention, though, because the Hiawathas are running with 7 coaches today.

 

[FatherMarquette]

F = m*a. Increasing the mass (weight) of the train either requires higher force for the same acceleration, or it results in a slower acceleration. If the acceleration is slower, then it has to stay in notch 8 longer to get to speed. Is it a significant difference? Not really, but it is there.

I guess someone was paying attention, though, because the Hiawathas are running with 7 coaches today.

Sorry to resurrect a dead post. But could someone please tell me or estimate the number of seats on each Hiawatha train set. Seven cars for 2,145 passengers per day or 154 passengers per run seems like way too much equipment for that number of people. Is it that some runs are super full and some are completely empty so that is why they need so many cars or am I doing the math wrong.

This started because I was comparing capacity between the Michigan services and Illinois services. The Wolverine averages 438 passengers per run, the Pere Marquette averages 279 passengers, and the Blue Water averages 216 passengers. But none of these come close to having as many cars. Any help would be great. Thank you.

 

[Trogdor]

Each trainset currently has approximately 420 seats (the new ones will have 397 seats). Train 339, the 5:08 pm trip out of Chicago, often runs with standees.

The cost and hassle of switching out cars when they're not needed would exceed any savings of running with shorter consists during the low period.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

420 seats, how do I get one of those on my next Amtrak trip! I assume the doobie is free if you are in BC?

 

[FatherMarquette]

Each trainset currently has approximately 420 seats (the new ones will have 397 seats). Train 339, the 5:08 pm trip out of Chicago, often runs with standees.

The cost and hassle of switching out cars when they're not needed would exceed any savings of running with shorter consists during the low period.

Fantastic, thank you.

 

[Judith Parker-Day]

Are the cafe attendants on the Hiawatha Amtrak?