French Toast is back on the Empire Builder, and other menu changes.

[dlagrua]

The dining cars on trains can never make money because.

1. The servers (waters & Waitresses) are paid far higher than they are at any restaurant and the entire crew requires lodging and gets free meals.

2. Its a restaurant but its closed much of the time

3. due to .3 you are not going to be able to serve that many more coach passengers.

4. the food is too expensive for many coach passengers that are traveling on a budget.

5. On many trains the dining car Steward makes no announcements in coach that meals are available or being served as they feel that they should be doing the bare minimum of work

6. "Throw-a-way" plates and cups are a significant cost. .

7. Disposables create larger volumes of garbage and increase sanitation costs.

Good thing that Amtrak got rid of that 75 cent a day flower on the tables!!!! The man that thought of that was a genius. That saved them a giant 2 cents per dining car patron. A strong move towards profitability to be sure. Wall street would be proud.

Lets face it. When was the last time that any dining car on any railroad throughout history made any money?

 

[neroden]

Make no mistake: Pullman Company made money when it started out. Yes, it made money *on* the dining cars, not just on the sleeping cars. They ran dining cars on day trains.

The alternative, for passengers, was getting off at a station to eat, or packing your own food. It's quite possible to make a profitable dining car under those circumstances, *if you can get enough volume*.

Looking at Amtrak today, I would guess that the Auto Train has the required volume of dining car patrons. The other trains probably don't, and a plan should be devised to get them to the point where they do. (Or, of course, make the trains fast enough that nobody demands food, but that's probably harder.)

 

[Guest]

I thought the cost savings back then, was that passenger trains didn't have to stop and wait while passengers got off to eat at a restaurant. Time is money. I don't think that Amtrak's accountants factor that into their calculations. I mean, something like they loose $25K waiting but loose only $10K having a dining car.

The Auto Train does have the volume since just about everyone eats; even coach passengers. I guess Amtrak could do such on all LD trains, but would need more dining cars to have the seating capacity.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Regardless of whether the dining cars made money or not, back in the early days the railroads made money on passenger travel. They provided good dining experiences because they were competing for passengers with other railroads.

Amtrak doesn't compete with other railroads, it competes with air travel and cars.

Food on airplanes used to be uniformly bad. Now, it's uniformly unavailable (at least domestically in coach). For people traveling the interstates, food is uniformly bad, but at least it's cheap and fast.

I wish Amtrak would consider food as part of it's "competition" with airlines and cars. Truly good food would be a reason to take the train. Thanks to reality television, I think it's fair to say that more people care about good food than they used to. And it's certainly not a space issue, as cities across America have food trucks that put Amtrak to shame.

"Spacious, comfortable seating" is a good reason to take the train. "Great scenery outside the window" is a reason to take the train. "Wonderful food" could be a reason to take the train. Nowadays, "trying to survive on barely edible food for several days" is a reason NOT to take the train.

 

[neroden]

Food should be considered part of speed, when it comes to running trains over long distances. When driving, you have to *stop* to eat. (Well, unless you're a maniac; I've met a few; but they should have their licenses revoked.) This gives the train a time advantage.

Considering the road competition, food on the train needs to be (a) consistently available, and (b) slightly better than truck-stop standards. In the past it has been, but Amtrak has lately lowering it below that standard. At a truck stop you at least generally have a decent *selection* in what to eat...

 

[NorthShore]

Well, I received the surprise on my trip from EMY to SEA a couple of days after this was implemented. I was traveling coach. The waitress mentioned ala carte at lunch, but I didn't quite want to believe her.

My previous trip a week earlier found me initially told that only coffee, tea, and water were included with meals. When I complained about no longer being offered juice as an option, I was provided with the squeezed cranberries I desired by an understanding waitress (who was well rewarded.) She continued to provide the beverage throughout my trip without me ever having to ask.

But, here, when I requested cranberry juice with my burger, I was told, "Two Dollars!" The waitress politely and patiently explained the new policy, noted that most regular riders were also upset, and recommended writing Amtrak to express objection. I opted, instead, for water now knowing I was not receiving any sort of value for my meal (and kind of wishing I had, instead, just gotten the sandwich in the lounge.) Indeed, I felt cheated out of my money on what has essentially become more expensive microwaved food. Everyone else at my table opted for the still included aqua, also. I did, sardonically, however offer to pay an extra fifty cents for the Boardman Special pickle, when the LSA came to collect.

SEA - CHI I held a roomette. Everything included. I took as much as I could get, knowing it might not be long before I can get much.

I typically travel coach, and the new policy, effectively raising my costs and reducing services, is a significant disincentive not only for eating in the dining car but, for one who enjoys having at least one meal (usually dinner) and sometimes more there, but also for riding medium to long distance, at all.

This Amtrak riding advocate will now be considering other travel options first in the future.

 

[NorthShore]

Oh, but the new salads are a bit bigger in a fancier bowl. The waitress asks up front if patrons would like them, when first addressing you. And you get a little bag of croutons.

 

[benale]

Wonder how much longer water will be free? Not the bottled water, but a glass of water with the meal. I'm sure this new pricing policy is discouraging coach passengers from eating in the dining car. I would imagine the cafe cars are getting increased business. Breakfast used to be the best deal with coffee and juice included in the meal. Now there is no best deal.

 

[Rail Freak]

Oct 16th CZ # 6 offered French Toast in place of pan cakes!!!

In hindsight, Mr. Boardman must have realized it was my B-Day & told them to offer my favorite Breakfast!!!!! And to think I ordered the ...........!!! ^_^

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Oh, but the new salads are a bit bigger in a fancier bowl. The waitress asks up front if patrons would like them, when first addressing you. And you get a little bag of croutons.

Are they still the same salad (i.e. plain iceberg lettuce with two cherry tomatoes)?

 

[rrdude]

Do you have a picture of an AmBurger that's pink in the middle? Because I have never seen such a thing no matter how I order it.

Its been years since I have last seen a true pink-in-the-middle burger from any restaurant. Health codes seem to require the center of a burger to be cooked to a certain temp, and as such, it isn't pink anymore. The best they can do, is varying degrees of "well done".
BTW, this is why when you read about contaminated ground beef, its only supermarkets that get recalled, not restaurants. That's because restaurants are required to cook all ground beef enough to ensure any potential contamination is killed. Whereas, there are no such gov't controls on cooking at home.

I always order burgers and steaks medium rare. At most restaurants by me I have no problem getting a medium rare burger.
On my last EB trip with a fabulous crew in the diner I got a rare steak. I was told it was not possible for a burger and they only come well done.

Correct, Angus burgers are par-cooked.

 

[Dakota 400]

Just returned from the October 18th trip on the Sunset Limited: French Toast is on the menu of the Sunset Limited and the Southwest Chief as it was on the Crescent's menu, leaving New York on October 14th. And, the French Toast was as good as I remembered it to be.

New menu implemented on the 15th: No included salads for dinner on the Sunset Limited. However, on the October 20th departure of the Southwest Chief, the salads were included with dinner. When I told the Dining Car Attendent on the Chief (not the LSA) that salads had not been included on the Sunset Limited, the woman's response was: "They should have been."

 

[NorthShore]

Oh, but the new salads are a bit bigger in a fancier bowl. The waitress asks up front if patrons would like them, when first addressing you. And you get a little bag of croutons.

Are they still the same salad (i.e. plain iceberg lettuce with two cherry tomatoes)?

More or less. There's a bit more onion, more lettuce. It seems more substantial, but still isn't anything especially decent or nice restaurant quality. (Which one would expect at the price point if actually dining out, rather than trapped in.) Definitely not worth three bucks cash. McDonalds would do you just as well, if not better.

 

[Slasharoo]

The salad was Romiane lettuce, with 3-4 cherry tomatoes, some carrot pieces, onion and croutons.

 

[NorthShore]

Oh, that's right. I forgot about the carrots. Thanks!

 

[Bus Nut]

You have to inflate $1.25 from the 1960s to the present day, so it should be $10. But yes, indeed, that would be a solid revenue raiser.

Amtrak management doesn't seem to have any sense regarding the dining cars. The problem was identified correctly in the Performance Improvement Plans: lack of volume. They aren't turning over enough tables and they aren't open enough hours. The solution identified was to eliminate paperwork, to replace "paperwork time" with "serving time" -- which still hasn't been done.

Raising prices simply reduces volume. The person in charge of this is a fool.

But Congress has denied them the personnel they need to properly staff a train diner kitchen to slam out entrees like they would have to. They lack flexibility so they are doing the only thing they can do, which is to move more fictitious charges from sleeper accommodation tickets into F&B side, because yap-flappers like John Mica "I'm for rail until I'm not" R-FYIGM won't shut the heck up about the legendary ten dollar cokes on Amtrak.

Btw, see the thread above about the NARP convention, and follow the link in the first post. If what they are doing is absurd, it is because Congress like to play dress-up and pretend they are business leaders. Since Amtrak is a monopoly operation there is and will be no competition to cut their viscera out and force them to eat it like there would be in a competitive market sector. Unfortunately the only thing Congress takes note of is when their meddling causes immediate, enormous increased losses. In today's climate, they might not even care about that (but the state partners would throw a tantrum, so that does exert some control on them).

One more thing, that paperwork will be going away. It's long gone on the ticket side. It's coming to food & beverage. Patience.

 

[Bus Nut]

What is sad is not the prices but the alternative junk sold in the cafe car. Same crappy sandwiches, same reheated hot dogs, same junk food. At least when traveling coach, you could get one decent meal at, admittedly, a high price.

I'm in total agreement about cafe car food. It's fine on a 3-7 hour NEC trip, but on an overnight trip? I used to bring my own prepared food (as do many other people in coach) because the cafe car is glorified junk food. (Some of the state-supported routes do have decent food, which the states are paying extra for.) Anything that is fresh seems to sell out really fast and then you're stuck with candied peanuts and SunChips and other garbage.

I am also disappointed in Amtrak's use of plastic everything even in the dining car. If they are going to get rid of dishwashing the least they could do is use compostable plates and cutlery, don't you think? How about being environmentally conscious? C'mon, it is a railroad. I don't want to ride in America's Landfill.

 

[Bus Nut]

The dining cars on trains can never make money because.

1. The servers (waters & Waitresses) are paid far higher than they are at any restaurant and the entire crew requires lodging and gets free meals.

2. Its a restaurant but its closed much of the time

3. due to .3 you are not going to be able to serve that many more coach passengers.

4. the food is too expensive for many coach passengers that are traveling on a budget.

5. On many trains the dining car Steward makes no announcements in coach that meals are available or being served as they feel that they should be doing the bare minimum of work

6. "Throw-a-way" plates and cups are a significant cost. .

7. Disposables create larger volumes of garbage and increase sanitation costs.

Good thing that Amtrak got rid of that 75 cent a day flower on the tables!!!! The man that thought of that was a genius. That saved them a giant 2 cents per dining car patron. A strong move towards profitability to be sure. Wall street would be proud.

Lets face it. When was the last time that any dining car on any railroad throughout history made any money?

Hahahahaha, there are so many wrong assertions in this post it's not even worth a line by line breakdown. Gosh, I almost wish some of your assertions were true. But they're not, you are wrong, thanks for playing.

 

[Bus Nut]

"Spacious, comfortable seating" is a good reason to take the train. "Great scenery outside the window" is a reason to take the train. "Wonderful food" could be a reason to take the train. Nowadays, "trying to survive on barely edible food for several days" is a reason NOT to take the train.

Amtrak brought some chefs in on a retreat to try to come up with some foodie menu items to lure the cool kids onto America's Railroad and they got SAVAGED for it by the usual haters.

Anything they try to do to act like a sane organization and improve market share seems to attract a well-funded, well-organized, powerful crew of screaming haters.

So before we ask why Amtrak is so stupid and has such stupid leadership, the first question to ask is why Americans are so stupid and have such stupid leadership.

(This is outside of such concerns as actual internal organization problems at Amtrak such as ineffectual depts or depts at war with other depts or the fact that Amtrak is still using 19th century style paperwork in the dining cars, but as I said upthread, that is going away very soon. We can still point out the fact that it's going away about 30 years late. These sorts of things are roughly under NPRC leadership's control. Unfortunately, their overall business strategy? They aren't at the helm. And that sucks for the customers.)

 

[Dakota 400]

I found the new salad being offered to be very generous in amount with a very nice selection of Paul Newman Dressings and it was tasty.

I know that I may get flamed for saying this, but these cutbacks that I saw: no flowers on the table, plastic dinnerware and glasses, a tablecloth on the table, but under several layers of paper sheets that were removed after each sitting--these did not lessen my enjoyment of "dinner in the diner". I was pleased to see that linen napkins and real silverware were still being used.

The complaint about the table covering being a lessening of the experience is bogus in my mind. A national chain Italian restaurant does this for their tables and it does not lessen the dining experience. It's efficient; cost effective.

The cutbacks that were of most concern to me were the reduction of menu choices on the Lunch menu: no more Specialty Sandwich and a generic menu that "fit" the Crescent, the Sunset Limited, and the Southwest Chief. To be honest, the menu choices became "old" by the time I reaching the "end of the line".

A "surprise" concern was how the dining car is supplied. The Crescent ran out of several items prior to its arrival in New Orleans. The Sunset Limited ran out of single serve bottles of white wine before the end of the first night's dinner seatings. The SWC seemed to have everything on the menu.

But, with the new menu on the SWC, the items listed on the Lunch menu that could be ordered for dinner were ALL blacked out and were not available. Why would that be the case? The menu was just introduced; why would there be such a change so soon?

 

[neroden]

I'm agreed that the "appearance" stuff like tablecloths is not a big deal, but the worsening of menu selections is a big deal.

I am more concerned about the throwaway garbage plates than other people. I think this is a false savings. Amtrak is in a position to advertise itself as the "green" travel alternative -- or would be, if not for this, which completely undercuts the marketing campaign. Undercutting your own marketing campaign is bad for the bottom line. Compostables, they might be able to get away with, but I'd much prefer washables, even if they're washed off-board at the end of the trip (which would probably be more environmentally sound anyway).

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I'm agreed that the "appearance" stuff like tablecloths is not a big deal, but the worsening of menu selections is a big deal. I am more concerned about the throwaway garbage plates than other people. I think this is a false savings. Amtrak is in a position to advertise itself as the "green" travel alternative -- or would be, if not for this, which completely undercuts the marketing campaign. Undercutting your own marketing campaign is bad for the bottom line. Compostables, they might be able to get away with, but I'd much prefer washables, even if they're washed off-board at the end of the trip (which would probably be more environmentally sound anyway).

A truly green transportation system would be based on electric transmission derived from renewable sources. Something that nearly all of the Amtrak network has virtually no exposure to. Instead they create a mountain of trash and many tons of pollutants each and every day. Here in SAS Amtrak leaves their locomotives running continuously overnight even though we have local power connections to the cars. I'm not sure which part of Amtrak is supposed to be the green part but to be perfectly frank they don't seem to understand what green really means. Put another way, I don't think 99% of Amtrak has any clue or any concern than 1% of Amtrak is promoting a mostly bogus representation of green travel.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Nailed it Chris!!!

 

[neroden]

Here in SAS Amtrak leaves their locomotives running continuously overnight even though we have local power connections to the cars.

That's bizarre. Here in the Northeast, they Do Not Do That -- they use their shore power when it's available. Perhaps due to anti-idling campaigns from local cities.
Actually I have to wonder whether this is against policy. It might be worth pushing regarding this.

I'm not sure which part of Amtrak is supposed to be the green part but to be perfectly frank they don't seem to understand what green really means. Put another way, I don't think 99% of Amtrak has any clue or any concern than 1% of Amtrak is promoting a mostly bogus representation of green travel.

Well, that's a management problem, isn't it?