"(Freight railroads) are now getting back into passenger rail"

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Private industry always does a better job of providing goods and services than government does. I continue to support government owned Amtrak because its the only LD passenger RR that we have serving the public interest. Look at some of the old RR films and you can see the elegance, gourmet meals and great service that was once provided to the rail passengers by the private railroads. I would welcome the private railroads getting back into passenger service. For instance when George Pullman's company controlled the sleepers they ran efficiently and provided top notch service, comfort and passenger accommodations. Back then you slept on a mattress not on a sleeping pad but admittedly showers were few to be had. The gourmet trained chefs, waiters, and porters worked hard and provided nothing short of service excellence. Compare that to today where the food is so so, and many of the conductors,SCA's and waiters, are lazy, disinterested and arrogant. Cushy government jobs that are incentive free and last a lifetime can never compete with those in private industry.
Another Rant from a retired Government Employee!!! :rolleyes: !, Skip this one if the Truth Hurts!!! :p Another example of why this is such a Great Country! :wub: If an Untruth is Repeated Enough, and by Many (it was called the "Big Lie Technique" in Germany), ie on Talking Head Radio,in Baroom Conversations, Backyard Bar-B-Qs and spread by the Teapub Propoganda Machine,(AKA Fox Noise and the Internet :angry2: )) it becomes Gospel! Private Industry does NOT ALWAYS Do a Better Job than Government, all Corporations are the Beneficiaries of Government Welfare, Most Especially the Founding RailRoads, Airlines,Defense Contractors (aka the War Machine!!)Banks,Wall Street, Roads etc. How did that Wall Street/Bank Meltdown that the Dreaded "Government Cleaned UP!" fit into your statement of Faith that Private Industry ALWAYS does Better than the Wasteful Government at Running Things!??? People that Bash Government need to Get a Life!!! WE ARE the Government, they Spend our Money but WE Elect the Leaders!!! It's worked Damn Well for over 200 years, and Thanks to the Government even the Poor, Minorities and Women Now have a Chance, something that wasn't True @ our Founding and is Not True in Most of the Rest of the World! "You Could Look it Up!" as Casey Stengel used to say!!
Jim: An HONEST and true government of the people, by the people and for the people is a good thing. Do we have that or do we have a corrupt government bought and paid for, controlled by the world bankers, Wall Street, Globalists and Monopoly corporatists? The two parties were put there to make you feel as though you have a choice. You don't, you have no choice! If you believe that liberals will do a better job, you have a right to believe that, but quite frankly I see little difference in Bush, Obama or Mitt Romney. They will all do what they are instructed to do.

Keep trusting the government but before you do ask the American Indian how that worked out! Here is a You tube link for you to check out about a true historical event and how the people fought corruption in 1946 and won.

 
I totally agree with you, the Treatment of our Native Americans has been Shameful, but not more so than the way we did the Poor, Minorities and Women before the 60s!! But based on what exists in other Countries, for example Mexico where Corrupotion and Greed totally Rules, and the Governement is owned by the Rich, Ill still take our Form of Governmnet! Our Constitution Guaranteess Equal Treatment for All, not Just the Wealthy White Males! I dont know if you were alive in the Segregation Days but this Nation has come a Long way since the 60s only Because the Federal Governement Enforced these Rights!! I personally think we should Fire ALL the Incumbents but we don't need to Elect Yahoos that Spout such Nonsense as "The Government needs to take their Hands off my Social Security and Medicare!" and the So Called States Rights Haters that want to Return this Country to how it was before the 60s! God, Guns and Gays is no way to Campaign for Office as the Wing Nuts will find Out in Novemember! If just 75% of the People Voted we wouldnt have Corporate Welfare and Sensless and Phony Drug and Foriegn Wars which Waste Trillions!!!!! :help: We can Do Alot of Wonderful Things for Everyone, including Amtrak, with this Money!!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
And on a second thought: A politically unpopular move right now, and one with its own list of costs and troubles, but one that would revolutionize rail travel in the United States to a level where great benefits for all were to be had: Nationalization of the rail infrastructure. Buy out the right-of-way from all railroad operators and operate them under the same rules as the interstate system is ran. A blanket statement that requires a large amount of detail that cannot be placed into this limited discussion, but in the simple terms it would level the transportation field across all modes. The independent companies continue to operate the same in terms of traffic, and vie for the contracts to maintain and construct the lines like road construction companies do under the respective State DOTs. All above the rail costs are the concerns of the operators, all below the rail costs are the concern of the DOT. Users pay a fee, based on weight and mile, and a separate Railway Trust Fund is established to support the system and let it expand.

Amtrak remains, and perhaps slowly migrates toward that ultimate goal of being an independent company on the same playing field as a legacy carrier. A pipe dream, for sure, but one that has roots in reality if the will to make it happen is fostered.
NO. NO. NO. NO. NO.

Look at the sorry state of the highway infrastructure in this country, and give me one good reason why we should treat rail the same way.

The one good thing rail has going for it is that its infrastructure is largely privately owned and maintained (but federally regulated), and, with a few exceptions here and there, it WORKS.

From a passenger rail perspective, there are certainly deficiencies in the railroad network, but those could be fixed with increased investment (both public and private). In certain cases, government agencies have bought railroads for passenger operations (or even freight operations), but by and large, the railroad infrastructure is private, and in fairly good condition. The main problem with the railroad infrastructure is that there isn't enough of it, and you won't solve that problem by spending billions and billions of government dollars buying the stuff that already exists.

Our freight railroad network is the envy of the world. Why would anyone want to jeopardize that?

It hasn't been administered very well, but I think the passenger rail grants that we've seen the past few years under the Obama administration are a good way to go. Provide funding for rail development, but there's no need for the government to buy it. Some of the money can go towards purchasing a rail corridor, if that's seen to be the best option. Some can go towards building a brand new railroad (mainly for high-speed rail on its own right of way). Some can go towards fixing up existing infrastructure that remains owned by a private railroad. I'll agree, the rail funding should be on par with highways and aviation.

The way it works now, the railroads have a vested interest in seeing to it that their infrastructure is maintained to a level that matches the traffic needs. The only time that really needs any adjustment/outside intervention is when you have passenger trains in the mix. That's where the above funding comes into play, and the specific passenger corridors will have to be treated on a case-by-case basis (buying out an existing corridor, building a new ROW, or just paying to upgrade/maintain freight-owned tracks). But the freight railroad network is far larger than any passenger rail network we'll ever need, and the freight railroads maintain their own networks just fine, and to nationalize it all (for what reason?) would be just, well, stupid.

EDIT:

A couple other points that I should add.

1) Part of the reason why highway infrastructure is in such poor shape in this country is there's just too damn much of it, and it's way too expensive to maintain. If you nationalize the railroad infrastructure, then you'll have a railroad network that would be equally large and unwieldy, and capacity adjustments would be very difficult to implement (because now you're getting politics involved in what otherwise would be a simple decision of business economics - this is not to say that businesses always make the right moves, they certainly don't, but politics almost never results in the right choices being made). Then you're going to have a large expense of maintaining the tracks, and political lobbying that will have too much influence on which track gets maintained, possibly at the expense of some other track.

2) Railroads pay property taxes to the localities through which they pass through. Nationalize that, and what happens to that property tax base?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
V.O. Key discussed some of that stuff in Southern Politics in State and Nation....of course, good luck having that happen in Chicago or New York. I really think that sort of revolt was only really possible in the South (and perhaps a few parts of the West that took after the South) at any time in the 20th Century.
 
Afterall we all :wub: LOVE :wub: the private airlines, don't we? :huh:
I did. That is, until deregulation brought about such ferocious competition, that the one time glamourous experience was reduced below the level of an interstate bus trip. :(
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Afterall we all :wub: LOVE :wub: the private airlines, don't we? :huh:
I did. That is, until deregulation brought about such ferocious competition, that the one time glamourous experience was reduced below the level of an interstate bus trip. :(
Fly First Class. Adjusted for inflation, it costs about the same as the "glamorous experience" of the late 1960's (which I don't recall as being all that glamourous).

The fact is that the public says they want quality, but they vote with their wallet for low fares. If the public wants to fly transcon for $350 round trip (the equal of $60 in 1970), at that price there is not going to be too much glamor on board.
 
Afterall we all :wub: LOVE :wub: the private airlines, don't we? :huh:
I did. That is, until deregulation brought about such ferocious competition, that the one time glamourous experience was reduced below the level of an interstate bus trip. :(
Fly First Class. Adjusted for inflation, it costs about the same as the "glamorous experience" of the late 1960's (which I don't recall as being all that glamourous).

The fact is that the public says they want quality, but they vote with their wallet for low fares. If the public wants to fly transcon for $350 round trip (the equal of $60 in 1970), at that price there is not going to be too much glamor on board.
Exactly! If you want glamor on domestic flights, go get yourself a share on a private jet. :) If you want enough space to be able to do any work on a large laptop in flight, go domestic first class. Otherwise, if you want to do it nice and cheap like 90% want to, go discount, non-refundable economy. And stop expecting glamor while being cheapo. You get interstate bus trip quality for what is essentially the air equivalent of interstate bus trip fares. :)
 
Afterall we all :wub: LOVE :wub: the private airlines, don't we? :huh:
I did. That is, until deregulation brought about such ferocious competition, that the one time glamourous experience was reduced below the level of an interstate bus trip. :(
Fly First Class. Adjusted for inflation, it costs about the same as the "glamorous experience" of the late 1960's (which I don't recall as being all that glamourous).

The fact is that the public says they want quality, but they vote with their wallet for low fares. If the public wants to fly transcon for $350 round trip (the equal of $60 in 1970), at that price there is not going to be too much glamor on board.
Okay, your point is valid, and looking at it that way, I will agree with you. Thanks for pointing it out. :)
 
Forbes.com has this article on Amtrak's possible future which includs this gem from former Amtrak CEO Tom Downs:

"All of the Class Ones are now getting back into the the {sic} passenger rail service," Downs said
Is there a spit-take emoticon?
Best one provided by this site I think is :blink: I saw the article earlier and find it rather implausible. Where has BNSF or UP said anything about getting into running passenger trains? UP may be dispatching the Lincoln service trains over their tracks, but manning and running the trains? Umm, very unlikely.

Mr. Downs is now working for Veolia Transportation, so he is doing some spinning and has axes to grind here. He ran Amtrak for a few years back in the 1990s. What are the general opinions on his leadership and actions back then by the rail fans who were following Amtrak in the 90s?
I know it's not the same thing, but didn't the UP, and perhaps some other roads, actively campaign to run commuter service (with a subsidy, of course), over their routes?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
An interesting question comes to mind: Let's assume that the Virginia trains somehow pop back into the black after the recalculations are done. While it is a long shot, it's not impossible to see the Lynchburger in particular, and possibly the WAS-NPN/NFK routes as well, running in the black. Since we can safely assume that neither Norfolk Southern nor CSX would want to be bothered with an operation of their own, would it at least be theoretically possible for them to offer to cover a share of the "losses" on a profitable route (and, as being willing to bear that "loss", get the profits) if VA got stingy? i.e. Is there anything mandating that it be a state doing the contract in the law? I know that this has come up before insofar as the prospect I've raised of a group of municipal governments kicking in some cash to run a train (or an extra train) on a route to serve it.
 
politics almost never results in the right choices being made
Seems to me that the only thing that has kept America from losing passenger rail as an option is POLITICS. But you make a great case for that being the wrong choice after all. Because political decisions are almost always wrong.
 
Trog,

Looking back over your post, I think there's room for some localized buyouts (either of one or two tracks in a corridor or of a whole corridor) in higher-frequency areas...but you've hit most of the problems with an outright takeover.

You do raise an interesting, if unintentional point: Are we going to get to a point that the Feds start looking at cutting some highways out of the system and/or that states might cut back on some ill-used roads (such as, say, cutting a four-lane highway in the middle of nowhere to two lanes)? This seems possible, particularly if you find some white elephant projects funded by pork barrel earmarks and the responsible parties cease holding office. I wonder if there's any precedent for that?

2) Railroads pay property taxes to the localities through which they pass through. Nationalize that, and what happens to that property tax base?
A big-ass lawsuit on the one hand, and some localities going bankrupt that probably should have a long time ago for want of an organic tax base of their own on the other.

And as a random aside, I think the Twilight Shoreliner just left its station, based on the train horn tooting I just heard.
 
politics almost never results in the right choices being made
Seems to me that the only thing that has kept America from losing passenger rail as an option is POLITICS. But you make a great case for that being the wrong choice after all. Because political decisions are almost always wrong.
It was also politics that enabled passenger rail's competition to thrive, while maintaining heavy regulation of what would otherwise be commercial decisions.
 
Back in the 1960s, it was the glampourous Boeing 707 and DC-8 jets of a few airlines with lounges and 38' that tried to match the rails for comfort. It was their speed that really turned the passengers. Nowadays nobody wants to fly on a Boeing 737 in cramped 31' seating compared to an Amtrak train unless it is much cheaper or unless they just don't have time.
 
Nowadays nobody wants to fly on a Boeing 737 in cramped 31' seating compared to an Amtrak train unless it is much cheaper or unless they just don't have time.
"Nobody" is a pretty strong statement, given the number of people who fly every day.

Oh, and the shorthand for inches (which is what I'm assuming you mean here, and in a few other posts) is ". A single ' means feet. If someone had 31-foot seat pitch on a 737, I think everyone would be lining up to buy a ticket if the price was low enough.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Nowadays nobody wants to fly on a Boeing 737 in cramped 31' seating compared to an Amtrak train unless it is much cheaper or unless they just don't have time.
But still it is a hugely enormous number of nobodies that fly when compared to the nobodies that ride Amtrak, or even want to ride Amtrak I am afraid. :(
 
Private industry always does a better job of providing goods and services than government does.
[citation needed]

Private companies have to make a profit. Every dollar of profit is a dollar that doesn't go towards providing those goods or services.

For instance when George Pullman's company controlled the sleepers they ran efficiently and provided top notch service, comfort and passenger accommodations. Back then you slept on a mattress not on a sleeping pad but admittedly showers were few to be had. The gourmet trained chefs, waiters, and porters worked hard and provided nothing short of service excellence. Compare that to today where the food is so so, and many of the conductors,SCA's and waiters, are lazy, disinterested and arrogant. Cushy government jobs that are incentive free and last a lifetime can never compete with those in private industry.
correlation.png
Of course we all know that every dollar of profit is not taken out of a private company lest they have no money left to invest in infrastructure, technology, product development.....a railroad for instance would not have locomotives, rolling stock, rails, without continuous reinvestment of profits into their core business of providing service.
 
Wasnt the near demise of passenger rail another one of those things where competing industries got favors that marginalized most rail travel? Locally, we have a story of our streetcars being bought up and destroyed by GM, elimination of comopetition (no FTC in those days). The Ike comes up with the National Defense argument for interstates. Automobiles got a brief heyday till Asia was able to outsell the American manufacturers. Interesting that they could destroy their domestic competition but Washington did so little to save them from foreign competitors. FAA is created to promote air, but no mandate anywhere to promote rail. I think there's an interesting documentary in all this.
 
I see a couple things here I wonder about.

One, some say well they got rid of the trains so why would it work now? Well as someone mentioned we ripped up the light rail systems everywhere because no one wanted them. Now were spending a fortune in many cites to replace them. Down towns and city neighborhoods were abandoned, no one wanted to be or go there. Now many are returning in a big way. So nay sayers that don't see a chance for ideas to evolve again don't impress me. If trains are jammed all summer and probably much more now than ever, there is quite obviously a large percentage of people who would again wish to use rail service, long an short distance if it were convenient and available. The biggest reason many don't use rail today is it simply doesn't exist as a convenient option.

I tire reading endless post about standard services being considered as "land cruises". One would think many here were supporting the opposition in washington that always bring up that theory about overnight services which have almost always has sleeping cars and food service as part of the consist. After all a long distance trip requires food and for some a place to sleep other than a chair. To stand for the least attractive service as normal is to encourage even less.

Some how I don't think that most Santa Fe riders "Hated" the train. In fact I think they rather enjoyed the trip. And that is the often missing factor on todays spartan Amtrak.
 
I see a couple things here I wonder about.

One, some say well they got rid of the trains so why would it work now? Well as someone mentioned we ripped up the light rail systems everywhere because no one wanted them. Now were spending a fortune in many cites to replace them. Down towns and city neighborhoods were abandoned, no one wanted to be or go there. Now many are returning in a big way. So nay sayers that don't see a chance for ideas to evolve again don't impress me. If trains are jammed all summer and probably much more now than ever, there is quite obviously a large percentage of people who would again wish to use rail service, long an short distance if it were convenient and available. The biggest reason many don't use rail today is it simply doesn't exist as a convenient option.

I tire reading endless post about standard services being considered as "land cruises". One would think many here were supporting the opposition in washington that always bring up that theory about overnight services which have almost always has sleeping cars and food service as part of the consist. After all a long distance trip requires food and for some a place to sleep other than a chair. To stand for the least attractive service as normal is to encourage even less.

Some how I don't think that most Santa Fe riders "Hated" the train. In fact I think they rather enjoyed the trip. And that is the often missing factor on todays spartan Amtrak.
"Spartan"? I would not call it that....what with reclining, legrest seats, with nice legroom, tray tables, reading lites, curtains, power outlets, and in some instances wifi; and sleeping cars with tables, showers, coffee and tea, and in the case of the CS, a private lounge-diner with wine-tastings, etc.; and glass-topped lounge cars, with video's, etc.......not exactly 'roughing it'............
 
Its odd how people who claim to like rail travel have fallen for the opposition of trains favorite argument that sleepers or even decent food is somehow some luxury of the rich. Frankly when I have traveled by rail long distance I always go first class. I would bet I fall well below the poverty line in income. Likewise I see mostly sleeper passengers on amtrak that are just ordinary people like me. The rich are not going amtrak in most cases. I would guess its far beneath the standards so many here seem to think exist.

The problem seems to be that somehow the concept of a passenger train has been hijacked by a minority who see government as the answer to everything and it can do no wrong. No matter the sad shape of the equipment people think the sky is the limit and as usual prices for sleepers has again been raised. When the standard method of travel was by rail, which I am old enough to have ridden a fair amount, first class was a charge above coach for those who normally wanted a bit of privacy and yes a bit better accommodation for a overnight trip. It was not considered haughty or thumbing your nose at the coach passengers, it was a choice. Something that today often is now used a class warfare by those who oppose it. The fares on average were about half more than the price of a coach ticket. Only in todays world where the sleepers are priced at 20 times the coach ticket could people then claim its some high class exclusive fare. Its not the passengers who chose that, its the government.
 
Its odd how people who claim to like rail travel have fallen for the opposition of trains favorite argument that sleepers or even decent food is somehow some luxury of the rich. Frankly when I have traveled by rail long distance I always go first class. I would bet I fall well below the poverty line in income. Likewise I see mostly sleeper passengers on amtrak that are just ordinary people like me. The rich are not going amtrak in most cases. I would guess its far beneath the standards so many here seem to think exist.

The problem seems to be that somehow the concept of a passenger train has been hijacked by a minority who see government as the answer to everything and it can do no wrong. No matter the sad shape of the equipment people think the sky is the limit and as usual prices for sleepers has again been raised. When the standard method of travel was by rail, which I am old enough to have ridden a fair amount, first class was a charge above coach for those who normally wanted a bit of privacy and yes a bit better accommodation for a overnight trip. It was not considered haughty or thumbing your nose at the coach passengers, it was a choice. Something that today often is now used a class warfare by those who oppose it. The fares on average were about half more than the price of a coach ticket. Only in todays world where the sleepers are priced at 20 times the coach ticket could people then claim its some high class exclusive fare. Its not the passengers who chose that, its the government.
I don't think the difference in fares over long distances is '20 times' that of coach, but whatever, the fares are determined by that most fair method--the free market. It is simply a matter of supply and demand for what is currently a hard-to-get commodity....
 
I hardly think its a fair market approach. There is no competition so the government being the sole provider can charge what every it chooses. Sure you can choose not to use the service. However its a bit like saying I don't like the power companies prices so I think they can just shut off my electric. Not very practical. I don't know many people who think its a underpriced service.
 
I agree my point on the fares was somewhat exaggerated. I just checked amtrak chicago to los angles. The actual cost of a room is about 5 times the coach fare. If you figure that in previous eras the room was about half more than the coach ticket it would actually be about 10 times the cost it used to be. Still a rather hefty increase in my book.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top