EB mess

[jis]

A very interesting comment posted on the Facebook Empire Builder group from someone who says they are a BNSF employee. Referring to the standards mandated by PRIIA section 207, which were voided by a court [PDF decision] because they put Amtrak in a regulatory role, the poster says:

All these service standards were thrown out in court because BNSF knew this mess was going to happen long before the Bakken even started producing oil. Now the tracks are so bad from all the freight traffic they are closing the line due to broken rails and sink holes. It really is bad.

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the statement, but it does seem to make sense, unfortunately.

IMHO what the BNSF guy says is utter poppycock, to use a British phrase. The law was poorly written (as even NARP agrees) in the enthusiasm to ensure that Amtrak had full control and veto power, which it should not have been given. Someone over reached and they got slapped down. That's what courts are for. I'd have been really worried if the courts let that one through, no matter how much I want Amtrak trains to run on time. This has been my position consistently, I know, much to the chagrin of many around here.
Incidentally there was a lot of good work done as a result of PRIIA 207, which can be put into effect if someone would get off their duffs and do something about it by adopting an amended 207 as part of MAP 21 or something like that. I draw your attention to this extremely informative document to get a sense of the immense amount of collaborative work that has been done in this subject area consequent upon PRIIA 207: http://www.fra.dot.gov/Elib/Document/1511 .

One thing that stands out in the language of the document is how FRA and Amtrak are given equal footing in the standard setting activity, which is what the complaint essentially was about. Once that hindrance is removed it is very likely that a lot of the results of this work can be moved forward to deployment and execution.

 

[CHamilton]

Amending PRIIA 207 was one of the goals we had at last month's NARP Day on Capitol Hill. We asked our elected representatives for a very simple change, which would overcome the objections of the court:

Give the Federal Railroad Administration sole authority to develop performance metrics and standards specified in PRIIA section 207, deleting the words "...and Amtrak shall jointly..."

The representatives I spoke with were very receptive to making this change. And it's my understanding that the FRA was well along in developing the standards before the court decision, so they could hopefully be implemented quickly.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Hmmm.... so the EB is almost entirely cancelled from June 1 to June 4. I have a CHI-PDX trip scheduled on 27 roughly a week or two after that time frame. On a schedule of 1 to 10 (from 1 being "don't worry" to 10 being "cancel immediately"), how concerned should I be about that trip?

I had planned a round trip on the EB, but rescheduled the eastbound portion via a different route, as that leg is more time sensitive. I couldn't care less if the westbound EB is running really late, but cancelled altogether is bad.

What does Amtrak do if a train is completely cancelled like that? Just refund you your money (or AGR points), and that's it? Even if it's half of a round trip?

 

[CHamilton]

More details on the EB cancellations from the NARP Hotline:

Empire Builder service will be suspended between Minot, ND, and St. Paul, MN, for four days between May 31 and June 4 with no substitute transportation. Amtrak officials told NARP: “By request of BNSF Railway Company due to current operating conditions on BNSF’s railroad in Eastern North Dakota and Western Minnesota, Amtrak will be canceling service in both directions between MOT and MSP, with no alternate transportation, for four days.

“This is effective with these dates of origin: Train 7 of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th and Train 8 of the 31st, 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The dates are staggered so rail equipment is in the correct location to resume service eastbound on the 4th and westbound on the 5th.”

 

[TraneMan]

Hmmm.... so the EB is almost entirely cancelled from June 1 to June 4. I have a CHI-PDX trip scheduled on 27 roughly a week or two after that time frame. On a schedule of 1 to 10 (from 1 being "don't worry" to 10 being "cancel immediately"), how concerned should I be about that trip?

I had planned a round trip on the EB, but rescheduled the eastbound portion via a different route, as that leg is more time sensitive. I couldn't care less if the westbound EB is running really late, but cancelled altogether is bad.

What does Amtrak do if a train is completely cancelled like that? Just refund you your money (or AGR points), and that's it? Even if it's half of a round trip?

I wouldn't worry.. I know I am not.. our trip is on the 23rd and return on July 1st.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.

 

[jebr]

Gah, not even alternate bus transportation? Who makes these decisions? I know bus travel sucks, but seriously, Amtrak should still provide an option, especially since we subsidize them because they (at least claim to) offer transportation to areas that don't have many other options. But when they cancel it like that without any other options, it really kills their reputation, at least in my view.

 

[tim49424]

I wouldn't worry.. I know I am not.. our trip is on the 23rd and return on July 1st.

-Sent from my iPad using Amtrak Forum App.

.....and if you're not going to worry about yours, I'm not going to worry about ours at the end of July.

 

[andersone]

my sainted pappy, used to say "worry is interest on a debt that hasn't been incurred" so I shall not worry about my early August trip, even though it has been planned for almost a year with the such amenities as balcony rooms at the Many Glacier hotel waiting for us,,,,

 

[CHamilton]

Here's another story about shippers and their complaints. This group, from Albert Lea, MN, took their grievances to Sen. Al Franken.

Franken hears rail concerns


ALBERT LEA --- Rail delays cause headaches for shippers, but it's consumers and farmers who will end up paying the freight.

Sen. Al Franken, D-Minn., was in Albert Lea Wednesday to discuss rail shipping with representatives of the ethanol, grain, fertilizer and energy industries. The group of eight met at the office of the Albert Lea-Freeborn County Chamber of Commerce.

Individuals took turns sharing their experiences with railroad companies as Franken listened and asked questions.
He heard that railroad service has improved from the winter, but there's still a lot of grain inventory that needs to be hauled to markets. Complaints included a railroad that refuses to take freight into an area it doesn't want and another that unilaterally raises rates. Many shippers are fearful of stepping forward to share their shipping concerns for fear of retaliation, some said.
Having shippers fear retaliation is not healthy, Franken said after the meeting. The United States prides itself on having open markets, and the situation he heard described in Albert Lea is anything but.
"That's corruption," he said.
Franken planned to take the information he learned back to the Surface Transportation Board, which has jurisdiction over railroads.

 

[montana mike]

From BNSF yesterday:

By 2016, we plan to double track 115 miles of the Glasgow Subdivision with a planned investment of $156 million for five sections of double track on this subdivision in 2014. The 2014 projects will increase capacity on the Glasgow Subdivision to 62 trains per day – an increase of 10 trains per day.

It is important to note a several things, first their confirmation that the major track work will be finished some time in 2016 (my sources say Fall of 2016). Second, the 115 miles of double tracking will of course help, but this represents a catch up to meet current demand and not projections for 2016, which internally BNSF says could reach as high as 70-75 trains a day. Something has to give here. Either BNSF reroutes traffic, as they are doing on a large scale now, or just slow everything down--likely to do both. Lastly, my own BNSF contacts say over 300 miles of Hi-Line track need to be double tracked in key bottlenecked areas as identified by their own people. So far the funding for the difference has not been addressed by the powers that be at BNSF HQ.

​

On my just completed trek on the Empire Builder it was my observation that it was not necessarily the energy trains that were the primary driver of the delays, rather it was the sheer volume of ALL traffic. I have lived in MT, and observed the traffic on the BNSF mainline thru WFH for many years now and the increase in intermodal traffic over the past 12+ months has been amazing to see. We need to keep this in mind, that while the energy boom has indeed been the "news" here, it is an all of the above issue with increases in a variety of traffic that has brought us to this tipping point. FYI-our conductor on the EB did point out to me when we were in Williston, a number of brand new, tanker cars that are the vanguard of BNSF's order of 5000 new cars for the Baaken.

 

[yarrow]

took 28 pdx-spk yesterday evening. beautiful trip. left pdx on time. arrived spk to the minute despite some freight congestion and having to wait for an 11 hour late 27 to clear the depot at psc. was sitting in the ssl when the sleeper folks trooped down around 5pm to collect their boxed dinners. exclusively a group of gray haired couples. i just wondered how much of their good humor might remain when they finally get to chi

 

[D.P. Roberts]

Either BNSF reroutes traffic, as they are doing on a large scale now, or just slow everything down--likely to do both.

Can BNSF (or any other company) effectively kill off the EB (or another train) with slow orders?

Amtrak allowed BNSF to cancel the EB June 1-4 so that they could do track maintenance. What's to stop BNSF from saying that their track is so bad that they need to cancel for 4 months, or 4 years? Something like this: "Due to existing poor track conditions that will take years to fix, all trains on the Hi Line are limited to 25 MPH for large sections. Sure, we'll send the EB across that track just like all the other freight, but it will take you a week to get from CHI-SEA."

 

[montana mike]

Good point. It certainly could happen. My BNSF local contacts say the Hi-Line situation is sooooo chaotic that top BH people are monitoring the BNSF management's response and requiring daily updates to the situation. Additionally, there have been some pretty angry words between BNSF and several Ag Coops and LD Intermodal haulers over BNSF's horrendously poor performance in moving their goods over the past 6-9 months.

What I saw two days ago on the Surrey Cutoff was a real eye opener. To see that many freights and watch as we literally crawled along for most of the entire day was a manifestation of the heart of the matter. For almost 90 minutes, according to our attendant and conductor, we and over a dozen freights just sat on the cut off while the dispatchers tried to untangle the grid lock. We even had to back up quite a ways to a siding in order to let three additional freights go by so we could advance another 45 minutes or so at about 25 mph to the next siding, where we pulled in and again waited for multiple freights to go by. It's 260 miles or so on the cut off and normally this takes about 5 hours. It took us 13 hours!!!

 

[PaulM]

Here's another story about shippers and their complaints. This group, from Albert Lea, MN, took their grievances to Sen. Al Franken.

A critical economic activity enjoying an unregulated monopoly.

Duh! What do you want for nothing? Your money back?

 

[CHamilton]

Can BNSF (or any other company) effectively kill off the EB (or another train) with slow orders?

Amtrak allowed BNSF to cancel the EB June 1-4 so that they could do track maintenance. What's to stop BNSF from saying that their track is so bad that they need to cancel for 4 months, or 4 years? Something like this: "Due to existing poor track conditions that will take years to fix, all trains on the Hi Line are limited to 25 MPH for large sections. Sure, we'll send the EB across that track just like all the other freight, but it will take you a week to get from CHI-SEA."

I think that Amtrak should be working on contingency plans for just such an eventuality. If the Hi-Line becomes totally blocked, they should consider moving the service further south, either to something resembling the old North Coast Hiawatha route, or if that won't work (lots of traffic there, too) to something like the old Pioneer route.

Of course, such moves would lose customers along the current EB route, but would potentially maintain enough traffic to/from the Northwest to make running these trains worthwhile.

 

[philabos]

All the letter writing, hearings, articles and general hand wringing is not going to fix this situation. Ten years ago the same was written about the Sunset Limited and the Coast Starlight. A quick perusal of the April 2014 performance stats tell me those two trains now have the best on time records of the long distance trains just like the EB did in those days. BNSF is going to have to do a lot of work to get out of this mess, just like UP did back then. You will not get up tomorrow morning and find this fixed.

 

[yarrow]

i traveled on 28 yesterday so missed the cancellations by 1 day. i wonder how long amtrak has known about this and how recently joe "let them eat cake" boardman informed folks that their graduation trips, vacations and such were ruined?

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

"Run The Darn Trains"

That my response.

 

[pianocat]

Alright...another "Should I be making other plans"? intervention here. I am scheduled on EB from SPK - CHI leaving on Aug. 5. I HAVE to be back to my job on Sunday, Aug.10. Not worried about the trip south out of CHI. But if this line is taking all sorts of cavalier attitudes about informing pax re: lateness from SPK, then I have a real problem with them.. Big issue is this - I've checked, and though there are many flights out of SPK to ORD, they're mostly through SEA, and I really don't want to do this unless absolutely necessary. If i miss my Sunday, Aug. 10 commitments, so be it. Nothing is etched in stone. But why. oh WHY do they not give us an honest assessment of this line/schedule? That is something I just don't understand!.

 

[yarrow]

Alright...another "Should I be making other plans"? intervention here. I am scheduled on EB from SPK - CHI leaving on Aug. 5. I HAVE to be back to my job on Sunday, Aug.10. Not worried about the trip south out of CHI. But if this line is taking all sorts of cavalier attitudes about informing pax re: lateness from SPK, then I have a real problem with them.. Big issue is this - I've checked, and though there are many flights out of SPK to ORD, they're mostly through SEA, and I really don't want to do this unless absolutely necessary. If i miss my Sunday, Aug. 10 commitments, so be it. Nothing is etched in stone. But why. oh WHY do they not give us an honest assessment of this line/schedule? That is something I just don't understand!.

it sounds like you have a pretty tight schedule on your trip which is normal for most folks. we used to take amtrak for family trips before i retired and i had a definite date, as do working folk, i had to be back. missed it a couple times when amtrak pulled the train from under us. i would not take the eb without allowing an extra day at each end. i would not take it if i had a tight schedule. amtrak is rarely proactive in informing us lowly passengers of much of anything

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Pianocats the problem is the status changes ever day. Nobody know how bad the timetable is going to be on a certain day. A lot is construction, which is a Monday to Friday thing. Some are derailments. Amtrak should be more open about delays, but that just drive away the customer. The whole canceling of trains is mess up people plan, but Joe "Let them eat cake" Boardman is allowing that to happen.

If you need to be somewhere don't take this train.

Ouch that hurt just typing it.

 

[pianocat]

I've built in an extra day in Chicago. The assumption is it will be late enough to not make that CONO connection. Guess what I'm asking here is do I need to program YET another day into this whole plan??? Don't get me wrong I would love another day in Chicago, but I need to be back by Sunday to my job. If that doesn't work then I don't give a rat's ass. So I miss it I don't care. But sure would like to be here for my responsibility

 

[montana mike]

Pianocats the problem is the status changes ever day. Nobody know how bad the timetable is going to be on a certain day. A lot is construction, which is a Monday to Friday thing. Some are derailments. Amtrak should be more open about delays, but that just drive away the customer. The whole canceling of trains is mess up people plan, but Joe "Let them eat cake" Boardman is allowing that to happen.

If you need to be somewhere don't take this train.

Ouch that hurt just typing it.

Actually at least a portion of the construction is ongoing 7 days a week over the summer. They are literally racing against the clock to try to get some of the stuff done so this winter won't be another disaster.

 

[pianocat]

I think I'm going to take the attitude of when I get there I get there If my church service doesn't like it they can lump it Otherwise I will worry needlessly for another two months

 

[PRR 60]

I think I'm going to take the attitude of when I get there I get there If my church service doesn't like it they can lump it Otherwise I will worry needlessly for another two months

If worse come to worse, Southwest has a non-stop from Spokane to Chicago, Midway (and several connections). It would be a viable plan if Amtrak pulls the EB completely out from under you with the dreaded "no alternate transportation."