Crescent Diner problems

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

The Crescent that left New York on Feb 29th had a problem with HEP in the dining car at Washington DC. A passenger told me that when they tried to cook the first meal in the diner the wiring shorted out and the coating on some wires started melting. She was in the sleeper and was going to eat supper in the diner before they left Washington. They cut power to the whole train and sprayed the wiring with a fire extinguisher. This all took place after Baltimore. When they got to DC they made the sleeping car passengers de-train while they set off the diner, got food from the station food court and added extra supplies to the snack car. This delayed the train about 3 hours. She said the train took on fast food at various stations along the way. When the northbound came into Tuscaloosa they took a few flats of drinks and some boxes of different food from the snack car to add to the diner-less southbound when it came through a little later.

Here's my question do they not have a spare diner at DC or at least a cafe to store extra food and provide seating and workspace when they have to remove a diner? Do they have a spare at New Orleans or will this consist go with out a diner until it gets to New York?

 

[AlanB]

Amtrak no longer has enough single level dining cars to keep them on the LSL, so I can't imagine that they'd have a spare sitting in DC where no single level trains terminate/originate.

I also think it unlikely that they've got a spare sitting in NOL either, since the Crescent is the only single level train terminating/originating there. I'd expect that if there are any spares, that they would be sitting in Hialeah and Sunnyside.

 

[had8ley]

Amtrak no longer has enough single level dining cars to keep them on the LSL, so I can't imagine that they'd have a spare sitting in DC where no single level trains terminate/originate.
I also think it unlikely that they've got a spare sitting in NOL either, since the Crescent is the only single level train terminating/originating there. I'd expect that if there are any spares, that they would be sitting in Hialeah and Sunnyside.

I haven't seen a spare Heritage diner in New Orleans in years. Even when the City ran with Heritage equipment, and those wonderful dome cars, it only had a simple dinette.

 

[TVRM610]

You know.. this would be a great plug for the Diner-Lite Concept (if there is more than one of these cars running on a train). If the lounge had been a diner lite car (they do run on the Crescent, but with usual lounge menu) they could have possible stocked up on some D-Lite dinners (again not sure if this would be currently possible or not) and used half the diner lite car for meal service for the sleepers only. Would not have been ideal... but better than fast food and lounge car fare.

You would think there would be some kind of back-up like this in place.

Hey.. DC food court is not bad at all... I remember being given $20 cash for dinner in DC when the Crescent was running too late for the diner to be open on its departure. After boarding, a waitress who I had had several times was walking past our sleeper and started talking to me when she recognized me, she said to come on to dinner as soon as we depart.

Me: But they gave us $20 cash to eat in DC- saying the diner wasn't open

Waitress: Did you spend it all?

Me: No.

Waitress: Then I expect a big tip. (She always got one anyways!)

 

[CREW-DORM#2524]

The Crescent that left New York on Feb 29th had a problem with HEP in the dining car at Washington DC. A passenger told me that when they tried to cook the first meal in the diner the wiring shorted out and the coating on some wires started melting. She was in the sleeper and was going to eat supper in the diner before they left Washington. They cut power to the whole train and sprayed the wiring with a fire extinguisher. This all took place after Baltimore. When they got to DC they made the sleeping car passengers de-train while they set off the diner, got food from the station food court and added extra supplies to the snack car. This delayed the train about 3 hours. She said the train took on fast food at various stations along the way. When the northbound came into Tuscaloosa they took a few flats of drinks and some boxes of different food from the snack car to add to the diner-less southbound when it came through a little later.
Here's my question do they not have a spare diner at DC or at least a cafe to store extra food and provide seating and workspace when they have to remove a diner? Do they have a spare at New Orleans or will this consist go with out a diner until it gets to New York?

Spare Diner in DC? NOPE! Only thing spare in Ivy City is AMF-I Coaches and Cafes. Diner blows the 480 in DC the best your gonna get is a Cafe car.

 

[frj1983]

This is just another example of Amtrak needing to purchase more equipment and thus asking for capital in the next budget. I hope it passes as we could very well see equipment go down like this with no replacement available creating more and more bad news! I know, I keep beating this drum, but I'm becoming more and more worried about this!

 

[AlanB]

This is just another example of Amtrak needing to purchase more equipment and thus asking for capital in the next budget. I hope it passes as we could very well see equipment go down like this with no replacement available creating more and more bad news! I know, I keep beating this drum, but I'm becoming more and more worried about this!

While the following still leaves us far away from actually having new equipment, and of course is subject to Congress actually approving the full budget request from Amtrak, at least we can hope.

From the 2009 Amtrak Grant and Legislative Request:

New Equipment Procurement
Although Amtrak has invested heavily in the maintenance of our rolling stock, much of our fleet is aging and will reach the end of its service life in a few years. Maintenance costs rise as equipment ages, and this increases the stress on a fleet sized for lower levels of demand. If Amtrak is to provide efficient service, it will need to begin a new round of equipment procurement in the years ahead. Failure to procure new equipment will eventually lead to greatly increased operating costs and lost revenues as failure rates affect service and decrease equipment availability, generating a correspondingly unfavorable effect on revenues as travelers respond to delays and discomfort. To start this equipment acquisition process, Amtrak intends to use some of the funds in its 2009 capital budget for pilot programs, procurement of new equipment for short distance corridor service, and the testing or demonstration of new equipment for the Northeast Corridor.

 

[Dakguy201]

Alan, was it at all clear if Amtrak fully intends to test prototypes or was this section of the budget sort of "well, in the unlikely event you give us everything we ask for this is what we intend to do"? I sort of suspect the second case.

I do believe that they do need to begin testing prototypes both for the NEC and Superliner compatible. I believe there are as many as four or five potential manufacturers, but if I were any of them I would not be interested without assurances that this was the beginning of a long term program not subject to the annual Congressional budget process.

 

[AlanB]

Alan, was it at all clear if Amtrak fully intends to test prototypes or was this section of the budget sort of "well, in the unlikely event you give us everything we ask for this is what we intend to do"? I sort of suspect the second case.

Dak,

I don't know that I'd say it's 100% positive that they will do this, regardless of whether they get everything they are asking for or not. However, Alex does indicate that he considers this a high priority, as noted in this sentence from the report.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, we will have to begin the process of procuring a modern fleet – one that will allow us to support both the full range of current operational needs and the needs of the year 2020. Amtrak’s equipment is aging; average age of its coach fleet is 24 years, and the average age of the locomotive fleet is over fifteen years. Replacement of this equipment with modern rolling stock is a high priority.

You can view the entire report here.

I do believe that they do need to begin testing prototypes both for the NEC and Superliner compatible. I believe there are as many as four or five potential manufacturers, but if I were any of them I would not be interested without assurances that this was the beginning of a long term program not subject to the annual Congressional budget process.

Unfortunately, one thing that does seem to be clear IMHO from his statements, is that the NEC and other short corridors are the priority for new equipment. This of course goes right along with the type of business that he's trying to cultivate, that being State sponsered services. This of course obsolves Amtrak of all losses on those services.

I'm not suggesting that corridor services aren't important. They are, after all they are often a way to get funding to improve the tracks in that area, which helps both the LD's and the SD's. Additionally one type of service does feed the other, therefore the more of each, the better both do in terms of ridership and revenue. But it is starting to seem as though Alex's plan is to just keep running the LD's, but do nothing to enhance and even increase service in that area. And by increasing service, I don't mean on board services, I mean more runs to more cities.

I hope that this isn't the case, but it does seem that is the way we are headed. And that would be unfortunate, as Amtrak needs both types of services, both for the reasons I've stated above, but also to keep Congress on Amtrak's side.

 

[TVRM610]

I hope that short corridors can pave the way for more LD's in the future. For instance if corridors were built from Atlanta GA I would imagine that the first corridors to come (after ATL- Charlotte) could be Savannah GA and North to Nashville or Knoxville via Chattanooga. (Since I live in Chatt. I am hoping for this!). Well Nashville / Knox. to Savannah could be stretched out a bit and become Chicago to Florida service using existing routes (Cardinal and Silver Service).

This is a far-fetched example I know, but I really do think that corridors make sense. And in all honesty, ATL-Charlotte should be the next corridor, it should look like the NEC in my opinion. 3 Major cities very close to each other.

 

[gaspeamtrak]

This is just another example of Amtrak needing to purchase more equipment and thus asking for capital in the next budget. I hope it passes as we could very well see equipment go down like this with no replacement available creating more and more bad news! I know, I keep beating this drum, but I'm becoming more and more worried about this!

How true!!! Amtrak will have to buy some new equipment or they will have to start dropping some routes in the yery near future!!! At least start rebuilding those cars in Deleware!!! Not making the states pay for them!!! Get off your asses and start rebuilding these cars now before real trouble arrives!!! i think it would be easier to get the money to rebuild them right now!!!

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I hope that short corridors can pave the way for more LD's in the future. For instance if corridors were built from Atlanta GA I would imagine that the first corridors to come (after ATL- Charlotte) could be Savannah GA and North to Nashville or Knoxville via Chattanooga. (Since I live in Chatt. I am hoping for this!). Well Nashville / Knox. to Savannah could be stretched out a bit and become Chicago to Florida service using existing routes (Cardinal and Silver Service).
This is a far-fetched example I know, but I really do think that corridors make sense. And in all honesty, ATL-Charlotte should be the next corridor, it should look like the NEC in my opinion. 3 Major cities very close to each other.

So how long have you llived in Chattanooga? Do you remember the pre-Amtrak service?

I am a native.

My apologies if you have answered this for me before.

I visit TVRM almost everytime I am back home, esp. to see the sleeper "Chickamauga Pine'.(it is straight out of my childhood)

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I'm not suggesting that corridor services aren't important. They are, after all they are often a way to get funding to improve the tracks in that area, which helps both the LD's and the SD's. Additionally one type of service does feed the other, therefore the more of each, the better both do in terms of ridership and revenue. But it is starting to seem as though Alex's plan is to just keep running the LD's, but do nothing to enhance and even increase service in that area. And by increasing service, I don't mean on board services, I mean more runs to more cities.
I hope that this isn't the case, but it does seem that is the way we are headed. And that would be unfortunate, as Amtrak needs both types of services, both for the reasons I've stated above, but also to keep Congress on Amtrak's side.

Isn't Kummant appointed by the president or a member of the President's Cabinet? If so, isn't there potential for him to be replaced in about a year, far sooner than any new rolling stock would start to appear in revenue service anyway?

I also think that between the eight states directly served by the Regional trains, plus the relatively short trips to VT, NH, and ME, plus the corridor services feeding into IL from MI, MO, and WI, you've easily got 15 states with existing corridor type services. Getting another 10 or so states to get about half the senate can be fairly easily done with the shorter trains that are probably technically LD trains, such as the Coast Starlight (CA, OR, WA), the Silver Star, the Crescent, and maybe the Cardinal or Capitol Limited. (Or maybe some might want to argue that the Hoosier State is like another corridor route feeding into IL.)

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Personally i think it would be great to have corridor service on all LD routes, add stations to the routes, and operate the LD's as an express service stopping at only the major stations. It would provide a lot more service which would please congress and would help the LD schedules and reduce the number of locomotives needed on LD's since another train would be along to offer assistance if there was a failure. I think this would be a win-win situation if congress and the states were to fund it.

 

[MrFSS]

Personally i think it would be great to have corridor service on all LD routes, add stations to the routes, and operate the LD's as an express service stopping at only the major stations. It would provide a lot more service which would please congress and would help the LD schedules and reduce the number of locomotives needed on LD's since another train would be along to offer assistance if there was a failure. I think this would be a win-win situation if congress and the states were to fund it.

Yep - and the freight RRs would "love" it, too!

 

[GG-1]

Yep - and the freight RRs would "love" it, too!

Aloha

Well I am not a lawyer but how does the issue stand by the "right of way" on then public land was exchanged/given to private companies in exchange for them building a national rail system, both freight and passenger. Now along comes problems and Amtrak gets created, what implications did that create. Now for the fly in the ointment what ignored laws rules still exist that are being violated? And Why?

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Yep - and the freight RRs would "love" it, too!

Aloha

Well I am not a lawyer but how does the issue stand by the "right of way" on then public land was exchanged/given to private companies in exchange for them building a national rail system, both freight and passenger. Now along comes problems and Amtrak gets created, what implications did that create. Now for the fly in the ointment what ignored laws rules still exist that are being violated? And Why?

One rule is the one that Amtrak is supposed to have ultimate priority, I think it read that Amtrak was never supposed to be given a red signal except for emergencies. I believe all railroads have the power of eminent domain.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Personally i think it would be great to have corridor service on all LD routes, add stations to the routes, and operate the LD's as an express service stopping at only the major stations. It would provide a lot more service which would please congress and would help the LD schedules and reduce the number of locomotives needed on LD's since another train would be along to offer assistance if there was a failure. I think this would be a win-win situation if congress and the states were to fund it.

Which LD routes did you have in mind? The California Zephyr has only 35 stops (including both the first and last stop) on its route which is scheduled to take 53:25 (hours:minutes) westbound and 56 hours eastbound. I think that means the westbound makes averages more than 90 minutes from each stop to the next. Compare that to train 2105, the southbound Acela Express that originates at NYP at 6:50 AM, stops in Philadelphia at 7:55 AM, and then reaches Washinton DC at 9:25 AM, without makaing any other stops. If you're measuring the time and not the distance between stops, the Zephyr is already more express than the most express Acela.

I think most of the Zephyr's route also fails to go through the more densely populated parts of the county where investing in corridor service is likely to provide the best return on investment.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Personally i think it would be great to have corridor service on all LD routes, add stations to the routes, and operate the LD's as an express service stopping at only the major stations. It would provide a lot more service which would please congress and would help the LD schedules and reduce the number of locomotives needed on LD's since another train would be along to offer assistance if there was a failure. I think this would be a win-win situation if congress and the states were to fund it.

Which LD routes did you have in mind? The California Zephyr has only 35 stops (including both the first and last stop) on its route which is scheduled to take 53:25 (hours:minutes) westbound and 56 hours eastbound. I think that means the westbound makes averages more than 90 minutes from each stop to the next. Compare that to train 2105, the southbound Acela Express that originates at NYP at 6:50 AM, stops in Philadelphia at 7:55 AM, and then reaches Washington DC at 9:25 AM, without making any other stops. If you're measuring the time and not the distance between stops, the Zephyr is already more express than the most express Acela.

I think most of the Zephyr's route also fails to go through the more densely populated parts of the county where investing in corridor service is likely to provide the best return on investment.

My idea would be to start where corridor service exists, the NEC, California and Illinois, and simply expand out from those locations along the LD routes until the whole system operates with corridor service. The LD's will be more along the lines of luxury express service having the best cars, amenities, and terminal-terminal schedules. As part of this many new stations should be added to pick up areas along the route that don't have service. The services east of the Mississippi would work the best with this as there are many smaller towns along the routes lacking stations than it would in the vast expanse of open terrain on the western routes. If you've ridden any or the NEC-Florida trains, the Crescent, Lake Shore Limited, City of New Orleans, Cardinal, Capitol Limited, etc. you'll notice that you pass through many small towns that could benefit from this service and in turn increase support for Amtrak.

 

[Dakguy201]

I believe all railroads have the power of eminent domain.

Except when a railroad wishes to cross federally owned land, the matter of eminent domain is largely a matter of the applicable state law. That happens to be a very hot issue here right now as the DM&E (soon to be CP) wants to exercise that right to get from Wall, SD to the Powder River coalfields. Certain landowners are resisting, and both sides are attempting to get the law changed to strengthen their position.

 

[Barney]

The Crescent hasn't been running to New Orleans much lately, it has been turning in Atlanta. But, if Amtrak knows it has a problem early enough in the day, it could deadhead a diner from Chicago down on train 59 and make the switch. But, as the earlier poster commented, most of the low level diners have been sold off to private owners, and there aren't spares available. The plan a few years ago was to crunch out a bunch more diners from Viewliner shells at Beech Grove. That assumed that Bombardier or somebody else like them would be willing to produce the shells, and also that Congress would appropriate the cash to buy them with.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Yeah they are turning at Atlanta Mon-Thurs because of maintenance that was supposed to finish yesterday but won't for 2 more weeks. I dunno if they are going back to the regular schedule or not. A good number of people say they aren't going to be running but Amtrak.com will let you book tickets south of Atlanta.

I've also wondered why they won't order new diners. It seems like the cost of fast food and paying unusable crew when a diner fails would cost more overtime than buying some more cars. Also replacing the existing ones should save more than spending so much on maintenance for them. One of the diners I've seen on the Crescent has a plaque on in the hallway that claims it was used on the Southern Pacific Daylights in the late 30's if this is true this car is approaching 80. I think its time to retire them and get some new one's the savings overtime would defiantly cover the cost.

 

[sweet tea]

Yeah they are turning at Atlanta Mon-Thurs because of maintenance that was supposed to finish yesterday but won't for 2 more weeks. I dunno if they are going back to the regular schedule or not. A good number of people say they aren't going to be running but Amtrak.com will let you book tickets south of Atlanta.

still just weekdays, right? <gulp> i'm supposed to got NYP>NOL on the 14th (arriving the 15th) and then back to WAS on the 22nd/23rd. and i sure don't want to take a bus. :unsure:

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

Yeah they are turning at Atlanta Mon-Thurs because of maintenance that was supposed to finish yesterday but won't for 2 more weeks. I dunno if they are going back to the regular schedule or not. A good number of people say they aren't going to be running but Amtrak.com will let you book tickets south of Atlanta.

still just weekdays, right? <gulp> i'm supposed to got NYP>NOL on the 14th (arriving the 15th) and then back to WAS on the 22nd/23rd. and i sure don't want to take a bus. :unsure:

You'll be okay, they are running those days regardless, they run the full route on the trains that leave NYP Thurs-Sat and they get to NOL Fri-Sun, then trains originate from NOL Fri-Sun.

 

[Sam Damon]

From the 2009 Amtrak Grant and Legislative Request:

To start this equipment acquisition process, Amtrak intends to use some of the funds in its 2009 capital budget for pilot programs, procurement of new equipment for short distance corridor service, and the testing or demonstration of new equipment for the Northeast Corridor.

Note the exquisite Amtrak management tap-dancing around the issue which started this thread.

NEC ueber alles, volks! Screw the LD trains!