Chicago-Florida

[creddick]

Is there any possibility there may be a Chicago-Florida train again? Are there any plans at all for one?

 

[the_traveler]

One of the proposals to restore the SL-East is to extend the CONO from CHI-NOL-Florida. But as of now, that is only a proposed proposal that they are looking at.

 

[nferr]

One of the proposals to restore the SL-East is to extend the CONO from CHI-NOL-Florida. But as of now, that is only a proposed proposal that they are looking at.

And that will probably take longer than the current Capital Limited switch to Silver Service option in Washington scenario.

 

[henryj]

When I look historically at the Chicago Florida service there were three main routes and the Southern's longer route. The best route with today's minimal Amtrak service would seem to be a route through Atlanta. The train that did the best on this route was the Dixieland. This route was 1086 miles long and went through Danville, Evansville, Nashville, Chattanooga and Atlanta and took 23 hours and 15 minutes Chi to Jax. It seems the perfect route. A morning departure from Chicago gets a morning arrival in JAX to connect with trains going on to Miami or this train could continue on separately.

The question I have is what has happenned to this route with all the mergers? Is it a viable route anymore? It would serve several large population centers that as of now have no or limited Amtrak service.

I would think that to be successful, a Chicago to Florida train would have to make the Chi to Jax leg in 24 hours.

The old Southern route(now NS) through Cincinnati, Lexington, Chattanooga and Atlanta took considerable longer for the likes of the Royal Palm and the Ponce De Leon as it went over the 'rathole' division - something like 30 hours. Since those days NS has done a lot of work on this division. Could it support a schedule of 24 hours?

Finally, why does it take trains almost 9 hours to go the 319 miles between Chicago and Cincinnati?

Thanks.

 

[MattW]

Frankly, a CHI-FL train via Atlanta makes loads of sense. I can pretty well guarantee you that the train would gets lots of GA-FL traffic off of I-75 especially an overnight train. People could get off work, catch the train and be in Florida the next morning. CHI-FL has got to be a big market with only airline service currently available!

 

[battalion51]

Frankly, a CHI-FL train via Atlanta makes loads of sense. I can pretty well guarantee you that the train would gets lots of GA-FL traffic off of I-75 especially an overnight train. People could get off work, catch the train and be in Florida the next morning. CHI-FL has got to be a big market with only airline service currently available!

Hey don't forget about Greyhound! :lol:

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

Hey don't forget about Greyhound! :lol:

Yes 35 hours and 2 transfers later :blink:

 

[WICT106]

As a Midwesterner myself, I would also like to have a direct CUS - FL train, but it is just not in the works, unless one has the money to upgrade the tracks in several locations. Several other segments of track that were used in days gone by no longer exist, or are now owned by shortlines, and not maintained to passenger RR standards.

We have also address this topic on numerous occasions in the past. Some members of the Forum here, who are civil engineers, can weigh in on the various routings and itineraries, as well as the engineering challenges to going across the grain of the Appalachians, as suggested by one of the pervious posters.

There is the issue that the CHI & Upper Midwest market is just not the same size as the NYC - FLA market. Also, those of us who live in the Upper Midwest have been inclined to go to Southern TX, or Southern AZ, or Mexico, even in historic times. There just isn't the predisposition to go to FLA to the same degree as Northeasterners. To quote Craig Sanders, on Page 90 of Amtrak In The Heartland,: "The Floridian often had good loads during the winter, and the Midwest - Florida market is vast. Amtrak's New York - Florida route is popular, so why couldn't a Chicago - Florida route have similar success? The answer lies in the differences between the markets. Railroads offering New York - Florida service in the 1960s made money and offered high-quality service. Railroads in the Midwest - Florida market saw it as futile and eliminated or downgraded their trains. Chicago - Miami is 80 miles longer than New York - Miami, but because of route configurations, the best time Amtrak might muster is 7 hours longer than the New York route. Amtrak's 1990 report observed that states along the Chicago - Florida route generate 60 percent of the travel volume of the Northeast - Florida market. Yet with a population 45 percent of New York, Chicago generated 30 percent as many airline trips to Florida. 'This seems to suggest that there may be less of a Midwestern affinity, as compared to New York, to travel to Florida by common carrier,' the report concluded."

An additional issue one has to contend with is drive time. Many Midwesterners can drive straight through from Southern WI to Florida in about 24 hours, give or take. The fastest of the historic CHI - FL trains covered the distance in about 36 hours. There would also have to be considerable track upgrades in KY, TN, GA, and possibly AL in order to increase maximum permissible and (more importantly) average overall speeds. What are the advantages to riding the train for possibly a longer time, arriving in one's destination, only to have to rent a car anyways ? For a route like this to work, you have to offer reliable service, time competitive with auto travel, in order to get Midwesterners out of their cars.

One resource I found is a website that lists the historic schedules for trains. We can compare the schedules for NYC - FL and CHI - FL trains. Streamliner Schedules.

 

[delvyrails]

As a Midwesterner myself, I would also like to have a direct CUS - FL train, but it is just not in the works, unless one has the money to upgrade the tracks in several locations. Several other segments of track that were used in days gone by no longer exist, or are now owned by shortlines, and not maintained to passenger RR standards.
We have also address this topic on numerous occasions in the past. Some members of the Forum here, who are civil engineers, can weigh in on the various routings and itineraries, as well as the engineering challenges to going across the grain of the Appalachians, as suggested by one of the pervious posters.

There is the issue that the CHI & Upper Midwest market is just not the same size as the NYC - FLA market. Also, those of us who live in the Upper Midwest have been inclined to go to Southern TX, or Southern AZ, or Mexico, even in historic times. There just isn't the predisposition to go to FLA to the same degree as Northeasterners. To quote Craig Sanders, on Page 90 of Amtrak In The Heartland,: "The Floridian often had good loads during the winter, and the Midwest - Florida market is vast. Amtrak's New York - Florida route is popular, so why couldn't a Chicago - Florida route have similar success? The answer lies in the differences between the markets. Railroads offering New York - Florida service in the 1960s made money and offered high-quality service. Railroads in the Midwest - Florida market saw it as futile and eliminated or downgraded their trains. Chicago - Miami is 80 miles longer than New York - Miami, but because of route configurations, the best time Amtrak might muster is 7 hours longer than the New York route. Amtrak's 1990 report observed that states along the Chicago - Florida route generate 60 percent of the travel volume of the Northeast - Florida market. Yet with a population 45 percent of New York, Chicago generated 30 percent as many airline trips to Florida. 'This seems to suggest that there may be less of a Midwestern affinity, as compared to New York, to travel to Florida by common carrier,' the report concluded."

An additional issue one has to contend with is drive time. Many Midwesterners can drive straight through from Southern WI to Florida in about 24 hours, give or take. The fastest of the historic CHI - FL trains covered the distance in about 36 hours. There would also have to be considerable track upgrades in KY, TN, GA, and possibly AL in order to increase maximum permissible and (more importantly) average overall speeds. What are the advantages to riding the train for possibly a longer time, arriving in one's destination, only to have to rent a car anyways ? For a route like this to work, you have to offer reliable service, time competitive with auto travel, in order to get Midwesterners out of their cars.

One resource I found is a website that lists the historic schedules for trains. We can compare the schedules for NYC - FL and CHI - FL trains. Streamliner Schedules.

Interesting points.

Looking at the earlier Chicago-Florida service, it seems to have been extremely and uneconomically dispersed over many routes, some of which had less than daily service a half century ago. Perhaps the wisest move now is to choose just one route which serves the most intermediate population and utilizes present Amtrak route miles. That suggests a Chicago-Cincinnati-Atlanta-Jacksonville routing and a combination with the Cardinal between Chicago and Cinci.

Granted the Chicago-Florida market is smaller, but we are considering just one train instead of the three Amtrak offers between the Northeast and Florida.

Between Washington and Florida, there are no huge metro areas to serve. On the Chicago-Florida run, we will have rapidly growing Atlanta to attract traffic both northward and southward, too, as noted in one of the posts.

The old "Rat Hole" rail line south of Cincinnati has been upgraded greatly since the last passenger trains operated. A map in Trains magazine suggests that about half of it is now double tracked. I believe that NS has much improved its Atlanta-Valdosta-Jacksonville line, too.

Finally, in Atlanta, there is potential of connection with the Crescent, which will restore through New Orleans-Florida travel capability if as expected, the Atlanta-Florida segment is run overnight.

I'm sure there are relatively few "motorheads" who dangerously drive 24 hours flat-out. Even truck drivers are being restricted now to less than half of that driving time daily because of the fatigue factor.

With much greater population, this route needs an Amtrak study far more than the Pioneer and North Coast Hiawatha routes did.

 

[MattW]

Part of the problem CHI-FL vs. NYC-FL is there is no one single road route. "Drive the 65-24-75-turnpike" just doesn't have the same ring as "Drive the 95," but perhaps a single train route could change that. Yea, the market might not be as good, but is the rail market ever as good as the non-rail market? At least in this country?

 

[battalion51]

45% of the population, offer 45% of the service (ok well 50%). I know that there are inherent challenges to this project, but we can't be one sided to the scope we look at this with. What about the intermediate points that would benefit from this service. We should be discussing the challenges from a "what needs to be overcome so we can do this right," not from a "yeah but," perspective. There are a host of challenges, but there's never been a better climate to expand service under. Use HSR monies and see if you can get a kickstart with some of the challenging segments.

 

[KurtisB]

A Chicago-Florida route sounds like a very good idea. Atlanta would have to be a stop on the route, of course. As said earlier, Atlanta is a major city, and would by most all odds benefit from a direct rail line to Florida. Additionally, the fact that neither Florida or Georgia has a direct rail link to Chicago, and subsequently the Midwest, suggests, that when combined with the other factors, a very high route ridership potential.

I, for one, would certainly ride it, even if I move to California before if/when such a route begins operations.

BTW, I think a potential name for the route could be the "Sunshine Express". Referring to Florida being the "Sunshine State", of course.

Kurtis

 

[George Harris]

This topic has been discussed multiple times on this site.

When looking favorable at the "Dixieland's" route, it should be remembered that this was the first of the "fast three" to die.

To summarize previous discussion:

The fastest and most popular, the City of Miami through Jackson TN, Birmingham, and Columbus GA is no longer possible. Critical segments of the route have eitehr been abandoned or become slow speed short lines.

The South Wind route, which became the Amtrak Floridian's route would need major work between Chicago and Indianapolis and between Montgomery and Waycross GA to have a decently fast schedule.

The Dixieland route, while all in place and all with CTC signalling and higging the most centers of population, although missing such places as Indianapolis and Louisville in favor of Evansville IN, is very congested with freight, very curvey across northern Georgia and with reductions in Superelevation on many curves could not support the speeds of the past, nor given the current realitiies where the train could not be "given the road" there is no way the former schedule could even be approached.

 

[henryj]

This topic has been discussed multiple times on this site.
When looking favorable at the "Dixieland's" route, it should be remembered that this was the first of the "fast three" to die.

To summarize previous discussion:

The fastest and most popular, the City of Miami through Jackson TN, Birmingham, and Columbus GA is no longer possible. Critical segments of the route have eitehr been abandoned or become slow speed short lines.

The South Wind route, which became the Amtrak Floridian's route would need major work between Chicago and Indianapolis and between Montgomery and Waycross GA to have a decently fast schedule.

The Dixieland route, while all in place and all with CTC signalling and higging the most centers of population, although missing such places as Indianapolis and Louisville in favor of Evansville IN, is very congested with freight, very curvey across northern Georgia and with reductions in Superelevation on many curves could not support the speeds of the past, nor given the current realitiies where the train could not be "given the road" there is no way the former schedule could even be approached.

Thanks George for the info. If it had to go to a 36 hour schedule then the former Southern route over the rathole would compare. How are the possibilities on that line?

 

[battalion51]

I can't find what I'm looking for at this moment, but I have to wonder something. CSX runs some fast UPS trains and other Intermodal JAX TOFC-CHI every single day. I can't imagine these schedules being too much longer than 36-40 hours, and there's probably some decent dwell time in there. Doesn't seem like it'd be rocket science to get these rails up to passenger standards and shave off some time. And I doubt if public financing were involved for capacity improvements CSX would be adverse to it, especially if it didn't effect their property taxes...

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

The history of CHI to FLA service is very rich and quite complicated.

The pivitol moment was in 1940 when three new lightweight steamliners were put in service.

These were the Dixie Flagler via Evansville,Nashville,Chattanooga,Atlanta,Jax. The South Wind via Indy, Louisville,Nashville,Birmingham, Montgomery,JK: the City of Miami via Carbondale,Fulton,Birmingham,Columbus,Albany,Jax..

These trains each operated every third day. They ran in rotation with each other, thus one train a day but on three different routes. Between CHI and JAX the only stops they had in common was that the Flagler and the South Wind both stopped in Nashville. The South WInd and the City both stopped in Birmingham.

For many years, the times in and out of Chicago and every station between JAX and Miami were identical. Just to make up a time, say each left CHI at 9 a.m and each arrived in MIA the next afternoon at 5.25. This lasted for years but it eventually became too much trouble to keep up. Since the SW route was longest that meant it had the fastest mph. Since the Flagler's route was shortest it had the slowest mph since for many years the end point times were the same.

These trains were all coach originally. They each had one baggage coach, four full coaches, one diner and one observation tavern lounge car.They were originally going to be winter only trains but they were so popular they became year around.

There were other trains, heavyweight. that had both coaches and sleepers and ran all year and ran DAILY.. Such as the Dixie Flyer and Dixie Limited on the Dixie Flagler route. The Seminole on the City of Miami route.

Further there were winter only trains which were largely sleepers. Such as the (old) Dixieland on the Flagler route and a short-lived Dixiana. There was the Florida Arrow on the SW route and a name I can't immediately find on the City route.

For a time it was very confusing. Year round daily trains, every third day streamliners and winter only heavy weights. "Winter season" by the way was usually from about Dec.16 of one year to April 24 of the following.

A basic change began in the winter 1949-50 season. The every third day heavyweights(Dixieland, Florida Arrow,etc) were not revived from the previous winter but instead their heavyweight sleepers were attached to the previously all coach lightweight streamliners. These trains were still accorded the designation "streamliner" for historical reasons but they did run non streamlined sleepers for several years. Not too unusual, several trains were like that.

From this point all three streamliners began running with more sleepers in the winter than in the summer due to the snowbirds. The South Wind and City of Miami got new streamlined sleepers fairly soon. The Flagler did not get all lightweight streamlined sleepers until it was renamed the Dixieland December 16, 1954.

So,yes the Dixie Flagler was re equipped with new coaches and sleepers both and renamed the Dixieland.I saw it come through Chattanooga on that night 12/16/54.

I must point out the the City of Mami and South Wind sometimes ran every other day or two days out of three during the winter season. The Flagler only ran two days out of three during one of the winter seasons. Foreboding that it did not get as much business for whatever reason.

At the end of November, 1957 the Dixieland was discontinued, a sad note for me. Some on here know the first train I was taken on was the Dixie Flagler, later known as the Dixieland. Thus my "hang up" on the subject.

When this happened the City of Miami and the South Wind each became every other day all year and remained that way as long as they both operated. They also added through cars from Chicago to St. Petersburg and from Chicago to Tampa-Sarasota. This was due to the discontinuance of the Southland.

The Southland was a heavy weight train from Cincinnati,Knoxville,Atlanta to West Coast Florida points. It went via Perry, FL and by- passed Jacksonville. Though there were through cars from Cincinnati to Jax handed over to the Dixie Flyer in Atlanta. It had through sleepers from Chicago to St. Pete and Chicago to Tampa Sarasota and also from Detroit to St. Pete and Detroit to Tampa Sarasota. These also ran on revolving dates. There was a lot of that back then!! Another train on that route was the Flamingo but it did not have as much Florida stuff but was more of a Cincinnati,Knoxville, Atlanta, Albany overnight train.

Mention was made of the Southern RR with the Royal Palm and Ponce de Leon. via Chattanooga and Atlanta. Those were the year round trains. During some winter seasons there was the New Royal Palm, a streamliner which made very few stops on the Cincinnati to Jax portion of its route. It had through sleepers and coaches from Detroit to Miami and through sleepers from Buffalo, Cleveland and Chicago to Miami. During the summer as many of its streamlined cars as were needed were put on the year round Royal Palm.

After it no longer paid to operate a separate New RP, the regular RP just got more sleepers in the winter but on its slower schedule.

There was also the Kansas City Florida Special, which ran via Springfield, IL, Memphis,Birmingham,Atlanta,Jax with through sleepers KC to Miami.

Honorable mention must be made of the Georgian even though it did not go to Florida. It was a fast overnight streamliner Chicago, Evansville, Nashville,Chattanooga Atlanta with through coach and sleeper from St.Louis to Atlanta.Very popular at one time. It could be popular again today, how badly we need some way from ATl to CHI today. In its hey day, the Georgian left ATL at 6 pm. got to CHI next morning at 8.25, great for people traveling business.

The South Wind is the only train which became Amtrak. Shortly after Amtrak took over it was renamed the Floridian. As the only CHI Florida train left, of course it ran daily, none of all that confusion.

My pick of a name if ever a Chicago to Florida train is restored: Royal Palm (regardless of route)

 

[henryj]

The history of CHI to FLA service is very rich and quite complicated.
The pivitol moment was in 1940 when three new lightweight steamliners were put in service.

These were the Dixie Flagler via Evansville,Nashville,Chattanooga,Atlanta,Jax. The South Wind via Indy, Louisville,Nashville,Birmingham, Montgomery,JK: the City of Miami via Carbondale,Fulton,Birmingham,Columbus,Albany,Jax..

These trains each operated every third day. They ran in rotation with each other, thus one train a day but on three different routes. Between CHI and JAX the only stops they had in common was that the Flagler and the South Wind both stopped in Nashville. The South WInd and the City both stopped in Birmingham.

For many years, the times in and out of Chicago and every station between JAX and Miami were identical. Just to make up a time, say each left CHI at 9 a.m and each arrived in MIA the next afternoon at 5.25. This lasted for years but it eventually became too much trouble to keep up. Since the SW route was longest that meant it had the fastest mph. Since the Flagler's route was shortest it had the slowest mph since for many years the end point times were the same.

Bill, great history of the Chicago-Florida service. One thing that is important is the timing. All three of these trains made the Chi-JAX leg in around 24 hours. Southbound leaving Chi in the morning with a next morning arrival in JAX. Northbound leaving JAX in the evening with a next evening arrival in Chi, thus a one night trip. The Southern's trains took something like 30+ hours and two nights. Amtrak's Floridian in the timetable I could find was on a 29 1/2 hour schedule. A morning departure from Chi and a next afternoon arrival in Jax. Northbound it was an afternoon departure from Jax and a next morning arrival in Chi. All these trains of course continued on to St Petersburg and Miami. If a revived 'Dixieland' could at least maintain this schedule it would still be a viable train with a faster schedule than using the CL or the CONO as both these routes require a two night out schedule. The route through Nashville, Chattanooga and Atlanta would seem to be the best as neither Nashville or Chattanooga have passenger service at the moment and Atlanta needs the Chi and Florida connection. To run a service like this all the way to Miami would require four sets of equipment. Not likely any time soon unfortunately.

 

[George Harris]

Amtrak's Floridian made several flip-flops in schedule over its tortured life.

On Amtrak day 1, it was given what had been essentially the South Wind's schedule. However, the slide of Pen Central's track into slow, rough, and unreliable made this untenable. At the same time the L&N was becoming infested with slow orders and unreliablilty. The SAL south of Montgomery was not much better. As a result, the schedule was lengthened. it was then flipped a couple of times between night-day night- and then day-night-day with a really late night arrival in Miami. I do not remeber in what order or how many times this occurred. The route north of Louisville had a couple variations, and for a while it even ran chicago to Nashville via Evansville, but very slowly as the speed limit by that time was 50 mph.

 

[delvyrails]

Amtrak's Floridian made several flip-flops in schedule over its tortured life.
On Amtrak day 1, it was given what had been essentially the South Wind's schedule. However, the slide of Pen Central's track into slow, rough, and unreliable made this untenable. At the same time the L&N was becoming infested with slow orders and unreliablilty. The SAL south of Montgomery was not much better. As a result, the schedule was lengthened. it was then flipped a couple of times between night-day night- and then day-night-day with a really late night arrival in Miami. I do not remeber in what order or how many times this occurred. The route north of Louisville had a couple variations, and for a while it even ran chicago to Nashville via Evansville, but very slowly as the speed limit by that time was 50 mph.

Today Amtrak needs to be operated as a network in which all routes connect with each other. The scheduled arrival and departure times at Chicago of the four major western trains are what must set the arrival and departure times of the Chicago-Atlanta-Florida service (minimal two-hour connecting time). Another reasonable requirement is that all major cities be served at hours between 6 am and midnight.

These requirements suggest a schedule that is overnight between Chicago and Cincinnati and between Atlanta and Jacksonville. Much faster speeds would not much benefit the schedule between Chicago and Jacksonville but would be helpful south of JAX, along with use of the Florida East Coast route as far as West Palm Beach for the Miami trains.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Another reasonable requirement is that all major cities be served at hours between 6 am and midnight.

Reasonable? If we are maintaining one frequency a day on the LD trains, its insane.

 

[AlanB]

Another reasonable requirement is that all major cities be served at hours between 6 am and midnight.

Reasonable? If we are maintaining one frequency a day on the LD trains, its insane.

I probably would have chosen a different word, like perhaps "impossible", but otherwise I do agree with GML it is simply not possible to do all that you suggest delvyrails with only one run per day in each direction.

 

[WICT106]

Another issue that will come up in the future is that Positive Train Control requirement. The freight RRs are already calculating the costs associated with this thing, and their respective managements are certain to demand that Amtrak bear its Just and Fair share of the cost of PTC installation and maintenance. The freight RRs may see PTC as a legal "Taking," for which they are entitled to "Just and Fair Compensation."

 

[frequentflyer]

Getting the impression many think there is not a major market for a midwest to Florida train, am I right? I think a CHI-FL train through Indy or CIN through LOU, or NASH to Chattanooga and through the ATL would be wildly successful. There may not be the same amount of snowbirds as in the NEC but there is enough from the midwest. And trying to extrapolate numbers from how many that connect in DC to the Silver trains from the Cap Ltd is not a true gauge. No one is going to spend two nights on a train just to go from CHI to FL.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

This topic has been discussed multiple times on this site.
When looking favorable at the "Dixieland's" route, it should be remembered that this was the first of the "fast three" to die.

To summarize previous discussion:

The fastest and most popular, the City of Miami through Jackson TN, Birmingham, and Columbus GA is no longer possible. Critical segments of the route have eitehr been abandoned or become slow speed short lines.

The South Wind route, which became the Amtrak Floridian's route would need major work between Chicago and Indianapolis and between Montgomery and Waycross GA to have a decently fast schedule.

The Dixieland route, while all in place and all with CTC signalling and higging the most centers of population, although missing such places as Indianapolis and Louisville in favor of Evansville IN, is very congested with freight, very curvey across northern Georgia and with reductions in Superelevation on many curves could not support the speeds of the past, nor given the current realitiies where the train could not be "given the road" there is no way the former schedule could even be approached.

George, I think two things may have contributed to "my train', the Dixie Flagler/Dixieland falling first.

One, the fact that the Flagler was slower to run all streamlined sleeping cars, as noted per my earlier post. The City of Miami and the South Wind only suffered that anomoly one or at the most two winter seasons. The Flagler had some lightweight sleepers of course but it was not until it was re equipped and renamed the Dixieland 12/54 that all its sleepers were streamlined.

Secondly, the winter season New Royal Palm gave more daily competition than might be thought. It was all streamlined and daily and from Chattanooga and Atlanta to Jacksonville and Miami was fully as fast as the Dixie Flagler/Dixieland. Noted in my earlier post, both the SW and the City served Birmingham and the SW and the Flager both served Nashville. But the additional competition from the New Royal Palm on its faster winter schedule seemed fairly intense.

 

[creddick]

Getting the impression many think there is not a major market for a midwest to Florida train, am I right? I think a CHI-FL train through Indy or CIN through LOU, or NASH to Chattanooga and through the ATL would be wildly successful. There may not be the same amount of snowbirds as in the NEC but there is enough from the midwest. And trying to extrapolate numbers from how many that connect in DC to the Silver trains from the Cap Ltd is not a true gauge. No one is going to spend two nights on a train just to go from CHI to FL.

I agree about two nights. It certainly stopped me from taking the train when I found that out. We would have gotten a sleeper too but, not at those prices. One night, most likely.