Bugged at Newark by train crew, sorta.

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Green Maned Lion

Engineer
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
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8,333
Location
NJ
As some may know, I often train watch at Newark Penn. I do not take photographs, but I do consist record in a small Moleskine or Black 'n Red.

Yesterday I was recording the Consist of the Southbound Silver Meteor. Audrey, my girlfriend, was feeling tired from the heat and instead of following me during my walk of the train, sat near the head end on a bench while I walked the length of the consist. When I got back to the front end, Audrey was talking to a woman, who I am going to assume was the AC on the Silver Meteor. I make this guess because of the way she was dressed (including radio), and by the way she interacted with a man who was clearly the conductor.

According to my girlfriend, this AC took my picture with her cellphone and then pointed me out to the conductor. I found this out after the train had departed.

Interested in why my girlfriend was talking to a train crew member on the train (she puts up with my railfanning- she isn't one herself), I walked up to see what was going on. The AC in a almost semi threatening way told me "You're a rail fan, right? You should be careful what you do around here, I know of some people like you who have gotten in to trouble." Before I could ask her what she meant, the actual conductor came over, brushed her into the train, said "Don't worry about that," and things like it several times, at which point the train departed.

I know the conductor by sight. He often works LDs, and we usually wave or nod at each other, familiarly, so I think he knows me by sight by now, too. I recall having a few words with him at some point. Big older black guy with a friendly manner. (I know that describes half of Amtrak's conductors, but yeah.) The AC was an older white woman, with whispy greying blonde hair and a generally grumpy manner.

My girlfriend told me that the AC had told her there had been "reports" about me. Huh?

I know a bunch of people at the station, although not by name. I know a few conductors who work LDs the same way I know the one above. I often chat with the baggage handlers while waiting for LDs to pull in. I'm sure a bunch of other people know me by sight. I have never been told even one word of "don't do this" in the long time I have been railfanning there by anyone with authority at the station itself. Even the police have long since stopped giving me hairy eyeballs.

I can't imagine any real trouble because I do follow general railfanning guidelines- 1) do not, at any time, trespass on non-public railroad property, 2) do not get in the way of any operating crews. But one never knows. Do any of you have suggestions on how I should CMA?
 
I guess if a member of the public is hanging about on the platform or walking up and down beside the train, it might cause a bit of hassle for the train crew if they don't know that persons intentions, are they boarding, what are they doing, etc, etc. The assistant probably was just having a bad day, seems like the conductor wanted to excuse her behavior towards you.

Perhaps you too could adopt a fez as headwear, that should mark you out as a genuine eccentric rail fan....

Ed B)
 
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AC = again?
Assistant Conductor

I've noticed alot of the newer ones down here in Florida act like real PITA's because they're trying to prove something. The regular conductors I've met are typically all easy going since they're at the seniority level they want to be at and only have to worry about the job at hand.
 
I guess if a member of the public is hanging about on the platform or walking up and down beside the train, it might cause a bit of hassle for the train crew if they don't know that persons intentions, are they boarding, what are they doing, etc, etc. The assistant probably was just having a bad day, seems like the conductor wanted to excuse her behavior towards you.Perhaps you too could adopt a fez as headwear, that should mark you out as a genuine eccentric rail fan....

Ed B)
That, my friend, is a hell of a REPLY!!!!!! :lol: :p !!!!
 
I agree with nr272. Don't let it get to you, GML. It was most likely an overzealous AC (Assistant Conductor, RF). Amtrak has made it clear to all employees through various memos that RailFans are friends of the company and employees are to be courteous to them; only to intervene with railfanning activities when it compromises safety or represents trespassing in restricted areas.

Rafi
 
As some may know, I often train watch at Newark Penn. I do not take photographs, but I do consist record in a small Moleskine or Black 'n Red.
Yesterday I was recording the Consist of the Southbound Silver Meteor. Audrey, my girlfriend, was feeling tired from the heat and instead of following me during my walk of the train, sat near the head end on a bench while I walked the length of the consist. When I got back to the front end, Audrey was talking to a woman, who I am going to assume was the AC on the Silver Meteor. I make this guess because of the way she was dressed (including radio), and by the way she interacted with a man who was clearly the conductor.

According to my girlfriend, this AC took my picture with her cellphone and then pointed me out to the conductor. I found this out after the train had departed.

Interested in why my girlfriend was talking to a train crew member on the train (she puts up with my railfanning- she isn't one herself), I walked up to see what was going on. The AC in a almost semi threatening way told me "You're a rail fan, right? You should be careful what you do around here, I know of some people like you who have gotten in to trouble." Before I could ask her what she meant, the actual conductor came over, brushed her into the train, said "Don't worry about that," and things like it several times, at which point the train departed.

I know the conductor by sight. He often works LDs, and we usually wave or nod at each other, familiarly, so I think he knows me by sight by now, too. I recall having a few words with him at some point. Big older black guy with a friendly manner. (I know that describes half of Amtrak's conductors, but yeah.) The AC was an older white woman, with whispy greying blonde hair and a generally grumpy manner.

My girlfriend told me that the AC had told her there had been "reports" about me. Huh?

I know a bunch of people at the station, although not by name. I know a few conductors who work LDs the same way I know the one above. I often chat with the baggage handlers while waiting for LDs to pull in. I'm sure a bunch of other people know me by sight. I have never been told even one word of "don't do this" in the long time I have been railfanning there by anyone with authority at the station itself. Even the police have long since stopped giving me hairy eyeballs.

I can't imagine any real trouble because I do follow general railfanning guidelines- 1) do not, at any time, trespass on non-public railroad property, 2) do not get in the way of any operating crews. But one never knows. Do any of you have suggestions on how I should CMA?

GML,

I wouldn't let it worry you. If you are following the rules & out of their way, it shouldn't be an issue.

What you can do if it happens again, is break out the biggest, friendliest sincere smile you can manage.

You could always ask if she would allow a photo w/ your girlfriend & the AC. She may not agree, but it may ease her concerns about you. It is easy to see from their perspective why they would be concerned about photos being taken, but if you say something to them like, "I hope you don't mind me taking a photo of....... train" it may smooth things over.

The Conductor must have recognized you & may have told her not to worry about you.

You should start carrying a copy of the Amtrak policy & follow it. If you run into staff that do not follow it, don't make a major fuss, it could cause problems for you. You could point out to them the correct policy, but it is not a good idea to argue.

It is better to remain very calm.
 
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You might also take HER pic with YOUR cell phone and ask her how you are interfering with "business" as you know that all Amtrak personnel have been advised to be nice to friends of Amtrak ie railfans. And get her name
 
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Last year the AC took me to the rear of the coach car I was sitting in and told me that there's "no taking pictures on Amtrak". When I questioned her about it, she then backpeddaled and said, "if there's a Sightseer Lounge Car" than its ok! :blink: :unsure: When I told her that I have taken numerous photos on Amtrak, she backpeddaled again. What frustrated me the most was that others in the same coach car were taking pictures too and continued to take pictures while I lost the opportunity to get pics of my vacation on the Carolinian.
 
I agree with nr272. Don't let it get to you, GML. It was most likely an overzealous AC (Assistant Conductor, RF). Amtrak has made it clear to all employees through various memos that RailFans are friends of the company and employees are to be courteous to them; only to intervene with railfanning activities when it compromises safety or represents trespassing in restricted areas.
Rafi
she must not have got the memo.must have been her day off.
 
If you run into her again, you can always try one of 3 basic responses:

1) "Uh huh... Tell me, do the voices in your head say anything else?"

2) "Oh....okaaay" *making the twirling-finger-at-temple-means-you're-crazy gesture*

3) Say nothing, but do the 8-fingers "oooooh, I'm scared" wiggle-waggle.
 
Last year the AC took me to the rear of the coach car I was sitting in and told me that there's "no taking pictures on Amtrak". When I questioned her about it, she then backpeddaled and said, "if there's a Sightseer Lounge Car" than its ok! :blink: :unsure: When I told her that I have taken numerous photos on Amtrak, she backpeddaled again. What frustrated me the most was that others in the same coach car were taking pictures too and continued to take pictures while I lost the opportunity to get pics of my vacation on the Carolinian.
I'm not sure they can legally remove you from your coach seat if you're not participating in an illegal activity. If it'd had been me, I'd have ignored her and continued snapping away if others were continuing to do so (if not, I'd have contacted the head conductor). If she made a grab at me or my camera, she'd be under citizen's arrest for felony attempted assault.
 
Hope you all mean these suggestions in jest. While some Amtrak employees do not understand the photography policy, it is best to be professional and polite. Ask probing questions, etc. But I would advise against insinuating that they are incompetent or crazy. This only escalates the situation, and could lead to an unnecessary removal from the train or station, and an unnecessary arrest. I'm not advocating giving up first amendment rights, etc, but only suggesting that one assert their rights diplomatically. For your safety, the crews safety, and the convenience of the rest of the passengers.
 
Just for my own knowledge how is platform access handled at Newark Penn? Is it the same as at NYP where platform access is restricted to tickethokders at the time the train is announced or is it open access in that let's say you had a ticket on NJT you could wait on the platform until the NJT train came in? I've only ridden through Newark and never been off the train or in the station.
 
Last year the AC took me to the rear of the coach car I was sitting in and told me that there's "no taking pictures on Amtrak". When I questioned her about it, she then backpeddaled and said, "if there's a Sightseer Lounge Car" than its ok! :blink: :unsure: When I told her that I have taken numerous photos on Amtrak, she backpeddaled again. What frustrated me the most was that others in the same coach car were taking pictures too and continued to take pictures while I lost the opportunity to get pics of my vacation on the Carolinian.
I'm not sure they can legally remove you from your coach seat if you're not participating in an illegal activity. If it'd had been me, I'd have ignored her and continued snapping away if others were continuing to do so (if not, I'd have contacted the head conductor). If she made a grab at me or my camera, she'd be under citizen's arrest for felony attempted assault.
A ticket is a revocable license they can boot you for doing anything that voilates their rules. It doesn't have to be illegal. However, seems like the train staff was violating company policy there.

If she made a grab at me or my camera, she'd be under citizen's arrest for felony attempted assault.
And then where would you be if when the court threw out your attempted assault charges?
Fixed that under the scenario described it would just be an assault as by the definition of the crime alone you cannot attempt an assault. B)
 
I was reading the editorial is Railpace Magazine today, and it says that Amtrak has "banned" photography. It mentioned that a Japanese tourist was arrested for taking pictures of the beautiful Long Island sound. The poor guy most likely didn't understand what the guy was saying. But Amtrak still has the "Photo Contest". Go figure! The only way to photograph is if you have a letter of "permission".

Stephen
 
Last year the AC took me to the rear of the coach car I was sitting in and told me that there's "no taking pictures on Amtrak". When I questioned her about it, she then backpeddaled and said, "if there's a Sightseer Lounge Car" than its ok! :blink: :unsure: When I told her that I have taken numerous photos on Amtrak, she backpeddaled again. What frustrated me the most was that others in the same coach car were taking pictures too and continued to take pictures while I lost the opportunity to get pics of my vacation on the Carolinian.
I'm not sure they can legally remove you from your coach seat if you're not participating in an illegal activity. If it'd had been me, I'd have ignored her and continued snapping away if others were continuing to do so (if not, I'd have contacted the head conductor). If she made a grab at me or my camera, she'd be under citizen's arrest for felony attempted assault.
A conductor can throw you off the train for any reason at all, and the local police have to comply with the conductor's request. The conductor could later be facing a law suit, and even possible loosing their job if they don't have a valid reason for ordering your removal. But that will be of little consolation to you when your dropped at the next grade crossing or station and turned over to the police.

There is a story buried here about a person from another country who didn't speak English and didn't understand what the conductor was trying to tell them. The conductor was trying to get him to stop taking pictures and when the person didn't stop because they didn't understand, the conductor had that person removed at New Haven by the police. I seem to recall that no charges were ever filed against the person, but he didn't get where he wanted to go, at least on that train.

Regarding your response that you'd keep snapping away, you would be in violation of Amtrak's policy. They may not have had a valid reason to ask you to stop taking pictures, but if they do according to Amtrak's policy you must comply and sort it out later. If you fail to comply, expect to be removed by the police somewhere down the line.

As for your idea of a citizen's arrest, good look with that one. Even touching the conductor could be considered an assault, and under Federal law you can and most like will find yourself spending some time in a Federal prison. It's basically the same as attacking a flight attendant. You'll go to jail no question asked. And the odds are not good that you'll prevail when you get to trial, so you could be spending a few years in a Federal jail cell.
 
Just for my own knowledge how is platform access handled at Newark Penn? Is it the same as at NYP where platform access is restricted to tickethokders at the time the train is announced or is it open access in that let's say you had a ticket on NJT you could wait on the platform until the NJT train came in? I've only ridden through Newark and never been off the train or in the station.
I would tend to think that's correct Tom, that one must have a valid ticket to be on the platform. It could get a bit more confusing at Newark, since you've also got Path mixed into the middle of things. But there are a couple of platforms that one would never be on, if one were riding Path. Unlike NYP though, there are no stairs/escalators that are controlled by employees who check tickets.
 
I was reading the editorial is Railpace Magazine today, and it says that Amtrak has "banned" photography. It mentioned that a Japanese tourist was arrested for taking pictures of the beautiful Long Island sound. The poor guy most likely didn't understand what the guy was saying. But Amtrak still has the "Photo Contest". Go figure! The only way to photograph is if you have a letter of "permission".
Stephen
Most likely an editorial that was written before the current policy was released. Or perhaps the editor just has no clue.
 
I was reading the editorial is Railpace Magazine today, and it says that Amtrak has "banned" photography. It mentioned that a Japanese tourist was arrested for taking pictures of the beautiful Long Island sound. The poor guy most likely didn't understand what the guy was saying. But Amtrak still has the "Photo Contest". Go figure! The only way to photograph is if you have a letter of "permission".
Stephen
Most likely an editorial that was written before the current policy was released. Or perhaps the editor just has no clue.
The current policy is rather.. generous. I don't know how to approach a conductor with it though. I mean I would comply but in the back of my mind I'd always think "wait a second, I know more about this policy than you do?" I'd raise my eyebrow and wait until after the crew change to resume my photography, or move to a more public area like a sightseer. Nobody in their right mind would object in that car as long as it wasn't disturbing pax or crew.
 
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