Bugged at Newark by train crew, sorta.

[AlanB]

The current policy is rather.. generous. I don't know how to approach a conductor with it though. I mean I would comply but in the back of my mind I'd always think "wait a second, I know more about this policy than you do?" I'd raise my eyebrow and wait until after the crew change to resume my photography, or move to a more public area like a sightseer. Nobody in their right mind would object in that car as long as it wasn't disturbing pax or crew.

Well I'd carry a printed copy of the policy with me, preferably one with the Amtrak logo and URL at the bottom of the page, and politely present it to him/her with a statement like, "Well here's the current Amtrak policy from the website that I printed just before leaving home. Can you please point out to me or explain to me what section I'm violating?" Above all, remain calm and polite. Don't call them names, don't insist that they are wrong and you're right, or accuse them of anything, and certainly don't touch them or make an moves that could be considered threatening.

If they get mad and/or refuse to discuss it or even read it, then just be sure to remember their name and comply with their request, regardless of how you feel about them being right or wrong. As soon as they've moved on, immediately write down their name, train #, car # (if you know it), date, time, nearest station, and a description of what you were doing, what was said by both of you. You can even ask around after the employee has moved on, if any fellow passengers would agree to be a witness.

When you get home, use that information to report them. Send a polite email/letter to Amtrak with that info and request that they please properly educate that employee on the photography policy. I don't recommend the phone, as you're more likely to get emotional and you're also relying on the person on the other end of the phone to get things right. With a printed letter or email, it can properly make it's way through the inter-offices of Amtrak to reach the offending employee's supervisor's.

 

[Steve4031]

I'm glad I go first class . . .When I'm on the Crescent, Sunset, or Chief this summer I'll close my curtian and door and shoot away. I don't think they will even know. LOL. Now for those shots out the back window, I'll have to be more sneakly. LOL

 

[ns4eva]

The current policy is rather.. generous. I don't know how to approach a conductor with it though. I mean I would comply but in the back of my mind I'd always think "wait a second, I know more about this policy than you do?" I'd raise my eyebrow and wait until after the crew change to resume my photography, or move to a more public area like a sightseer. Nobody in their right mind would object in that car as long as it wasn't disturbing pax or crew.

Well I'd carry a printed copy of the policy with me, preferably one with the Amtrak logo and URL at the bottom of the page, and politely present it to him/her with a statement like, "Well here's the current Amtrak policy from the website that I printed just before leaving home. Can you please point out to me or explain to me what section I'm violating?" Above all, remain calm and polite. Don't call them names, don't insist that they are wrong and you're right, or accuse them of anything, and certainly don't touch them or make an moves that could be considered threatening.

If they get mad and/or refuse to discuss it or even read it, then just be sure to remember their name and comply with their request, regardless of how you feel about them being right or wrong. As soon as they've moved on, immediately write down their name, train #, car # (if you know it), date, time, nearest station, and a description of what you were doing, what was said by both of you. You can even ask around after the employee has moved on, if any fellow passengers would agree to be a witness.

When you get home, use that information to report them. Send a polite email/letter to Amtrak with that info and request that they please properly educate that employee on the photography policy. I don't recommend the phone, as you're more likely to get emotional and you're also relying on the person on the other end of the phone to get things right. With a printed letter or email, it can properly make it's way through the inter-offices of Amtrak to reach the offending employee's supervisor's.

If sending the letter via USPS mail, you might consider certifying it so someone has to sign for it.

 

[VentureForth]

The current policy is rather.. generous. I don't know how to approach a conductor with it though. I mean I would comply but in the back of my mind I'd always think "wait a second, I know more about this policy than you do?" I'd raise my eyebrow and wait until after the crew change to resume my photography, or move to a more public area like a sightseer. Nobody in their right mind would object in that car as long as it wasn't disturbing pax or crew.

Well I'd carry a printed copy of the policy with me, preferably one with the Amtrak logo and URL at the bottom of the page, and politely present it to him/her with a statement like, "Well here's the current Amtrak policy from the website that I printed just before leaving home. Can you please point out to me or explain to me what section I'm violating?" Above all, remain calm and polite. Don't call them names, don't insist that they are wrong and you're right, or accuse them of anything, and certainly don't touch them or make an moves that could be considered threatening.

If they get mad and/or refuse to discuss it or even read it, then just be sure to remember their name and comply with their request, regardless of how you feel about them being right or wrong. As soon as they've moved on, immediately write down their name, train #, car # (if you know it), date, time, nearest station, and a description of what you were doing, what was said by both of you. You can even ask around after the employee has moved on, if any fellow passengers would agree to be a witness.

When you get home, use that information to report them. Send a polite email/letter to Amtrak with that info and request that they please properly educate that employee on the photography policy. I don't recommend the phone, as you're more likely to get emotional and you're also relying on the person on the other end of the phone to get things right. With a printed letter or email, it can properly make it's way through the inter-offices of Amtrak to reach the offending employee's supervisor's.

Most cell phones have a function to record voice conversations (where you don't have to be talking into the phone). I wonder if they would get more upset if you said "One moment, please," turned on the recorder, then showed them their own policy.

 

[caravanman]

Apologies if this story has already been discussed?

Amtrak police arrest Amtrak photo contestant!

Ed B)

 

[Shanghai]

Just for my own knowledge how is platform access handled at Newark Penn? Is it the same as at NYP where platform access is restricted to tickethokders at the time the train is announced or is it open access in that let's say you had a ticket on NJT you could wait on the platform until the NJT train came in? I've only ridden through Newark and never been off the train or in the station.

Platform access at Newark Penn Station is open. The train number and destination is posted on a board in the station and also by the entrance to the platform stairs.

I think anyone can walk up the steps and have access to the train. There are also small waiting rooms next to the tracks.

 

[sunchaser]

Apologies if this story has already been discussed?
Amtrak police arrest Amtrak photo contestant!

Ed B)

I think it has, but it is still being discussed. I understand the confusion about photography for a contest, but if you reread the 2nd paragraph of the rules, you will find that the policy appliees to contests as well.

http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServe...&ssid=11134

At least it's consistant, even if you don't agree with the policy. I can understand why there are certain areas that should not be photographed. But I also realize many of these areas have already been photographed many times over the years.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Now for those shots out the back window, I'll have to be more sneakly.

I have to wonder if being sneaky is the best way to approach that.

I think if you stay inside the car (not the vestibule), there's really no safety problem with being there. If you make the crew nervous that you might wander into the vestibule, I suspect they'll be less comfortable with you being near the vestibule. If you've been being sneaky, that might make the crew less inclined to trust you if you say you're not going to wander into the vestibule.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

If sending the letter via USPS mail, you might consider certifying it so someone has to sign for it.

In this situation, I'm not sure how much that really helps. What specific actions are you proposing to take to follow up after this letter is sent where proving that Amtrak had recieved it would be helpful?

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The current policy is rather.. generous. I don't know how to approach a conductor with it though. I mean I would comply but in the back of my mind I'd always think "wait a second, I know more about this policy than you do?" I'd raise my eyebrow and wait until after the crew change to resume my photography, or move to a more public area like a sightseer. Nobody in their right mind would object in that car as long as it wasn't disturbing pax or crew.

Well I'd carry a printed copy of the policy with me, preferably one with the Amtrak logo and URL at the bottom of the page, and politely present it to him/her with a statement like, "Well here's the current Amtrak policy from the website that I printed just before leaving home. Can you please point out to me or explain to me what section I'm violating?" Above all, remain calm and polite. Don't call them names, don't insist that they are wrong and you're right, or accuse them of anything, and certainly don't touch them or make an moves that could be considered threatening.

If they get mad and/or refuse to discuss it or even read it, then just be sure to remember their name and comply with their request, regardless of how you feel about them being right or wrong. As soon as they've moved on, immediately write down their name, train #, car # (if you know it), date, time, nearest station, and a description of what you were doing, what was said by both of you. You can even ask around after the employee has moved on, if any fellow passengers would agree to be a witness.

When you get home, use that information to report them. Send a polite email/letter to Amtrak with that info and request that they please properly educate that employee on the photography policy. I don't recommend the phone, as you're more likely to get emotional and you're also relying on the person on the other end of the phone to get things right. With a printed letter or email, it can properly make it's way through the inter-offices of Amtrak to reach the offending employee's supervisor's.

Most cell phones have a function to record voice conversations (where you don't have to be talking into the phone). I wonder if they would get more upset if you said "One moment, please," turned on the recorder, then showed them their own policy.

Recording somebody's conversations without knowledge is a crime in some (but to my knowledge not all) states/jurisdictions.

 

[printman2000]

As some may know, I often train watch at Newark Penn. I do not take photographs, but I do consist record in a small Moleskine or Black 'n Red.
Yesterday I was recording the Consist of the Southbound Silver Meteor.

When you say recording, do you mean writing it down or were you video/picture taking?

I assumed you meant writing down, but then this topic went off talking about photography rules and such, it has confused me.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

As some may know, I often train watch at Newark Penn. I do not take photographs, but I do consist record in a small Moleskine or Black 'n Red.
Yesterday I was recording the Consist of the Southbound Silver Meteor.

When you say recording, do you mean writing it down or were you video/picture taking?

I assumed you meant writing down, but then this topic went off talking about photography rules and such, it has confused me.

He writes it down. Just engine and car numbers, helps us keep track of what Amtrak is doing with our precious cars

 

[PRR 60]

For the record, the Amtrak policy, when read carefully, is quite restrictive.

3. Ticketed Passengers on platforms may photograph or video record during the time they are preparing to board or immediately after alighting from a train. Equipment is limited to hand-held devices. Such photography, including equipment set-up will be done in a reasonable, safe and timely manner.
4. Ticketed passengers on board trains may take photos or video record on a train when it does not interfere with passengers or crew and in accordance with any directions given by Amtrak onboard train personnel.

Reading that word-for word tells you that:

- The policy does not grant permission to take pictures on train platforms unless you are getting on or off a train. Now, Newark NJ is not an Amtrak station (it's owned and controlled bu NJ Transit), but even if the Amtrak policy is applied, it does not provide an expectation that photography is permitted on the platform.

- The policy gives train crews wide latitude to control photography on an Amtrak train. The wording "...and in accordance with any directions given by onboard train personnel" literally means that the crew can direct you in any way whatsoever. The policy very clearly does no obligate train crews to permit photography on trains.

In practice, photography on train platforms and on trains is commonplace and is not normally an issue. But, the new policy, advertised as a breakthrough for photographers rights, in fact documents Amtrak right to prohibit prohibit photography pretty much whenever they would like. This policy is like a politician's speech. You cannot just assume you know what it is trying to say. You have to read the words, and only the words, and see what it actually says. What this policy actually says regarding the protection of the right to take pictures near or on Amtrak trains is much, much less than assumed.

 

[ns4eva]

If sending the letter via USPS mail, you might consider certifying it so someone has to sign for it.

In this situation, I'm not sure how much that really helps. What specific actions are you proposing to take to follow up after this letter is sent where proving that Amtrak had recieved it would be helpful?

I guess it's just personal preference. I have had things disappear and never arrive at the destination and always like reassurance it made it there.

 

[jackal]

The current policy is rather.. generous. I don't know how to approach a conductor with it though. I mean I would comply but in the back of my mind I'd always think "wait a second, I know more about this policy than you do?" I'd raise my eyebrow and wait until after the crew change to resume my photography, or move to a more public area like a sightseer. Nobody in their right mind would object in that car as long as it wasn't disturbing pax or crew.

Well I'd carry a printed copy of the policy with me, preferably one with the Amtrak logo and URL at the bottom of the page, and politely present it to him/her with a statement like, "Well here's the current Amtrak policy from the website that I printed just before leaving home. Can you please point out to me or explain to me what section I'm violating?" Above all, remain calm and polite. Don't call them names, don't insist that they are wrong and you're right, or accuse them of anything, and certainly don't touch them or make an moves that could be considered threatening.

If they get mad and/or refuse to discuss it or even read it, then just be sure to remember their name and comply with their request, regardless of how you feel about them being right or wrong. As soon as they've moved on, immediately write down their name, train #, car # (if you know it), date, time, nearest station, and a description of what you were doing, what was said by both of you. You can even ask around after the employee has moved on, if any fellow passengers would agree to be a witness.

When you get home, use that information to report them. Send a polite email/letter to Amtrak with that info and request that they please properly educate that employee on the photography policy. I don't recommend the phone, as you're more likely to get emotional and you're also relying on the person on the other end of the phone to get things right. With a printed letter or email, it can properly make it's way through the inter-offices of Amtrak to reach the offending employee's supervisor's.

Most cell phones have a function to record voice conversations (where you don't have to be talking into the phone). I wonder if they would get more upset if you said "One moment, please," turned on the recorder, then showed them their own policy.

Recording somebody's conversations without knowledge is a crime in some (but to my knowledge not all) states/jurisdictions.

New Jersey is a one-party-consent state. I don't know if these laws apply to just telephone calls or to personal conversations as well, but here's a list of which states allow recording with only one party's consent (it's actually most states):

http://www.aapsonline.org/judicial/telephone.htm

 

[Shanghai]

I have take photographs on the platforms at Fort Lauderdale, Tampa and Indianapolis without incident.

I was not aware there were any restrictions. I have also taken photos on the train in the dining car.

 

[tp49]

For the record, the Amtrak policy, when read carefully, is quite restrictive.

3. Ticketed Passengers on platforms may photograph or video record during the time they are preparing to board or immediately after alighting from a train. Equipment is limited to hand-held devices. Such photography, including equipment set-up will be done in a reasonable, safe and timely manner.
4. Ticketed passengers on board trains may take photos or video record on a train when it does not interfere with passengers or crew and in accordance with any directions given by Amtrak onboard train personnel.

Reading that word-for word tells you that:

- The policy does not grant permission to take pictures on train platforms unless you are getting on or off a train. Now, Newark NJ is not an Amtrak station (it's owned and controlled bu NJ Transit), but even if the Amtrak policy is applied, it does not provide an expectation that photography is permitted on the platform.

- The policy gives train crews wide latitude to control photography on an Amtrak train. The wording "...and in accordance with any directions given by onboard train personnel" literally means that the crew can direct you in any way whatsoever. The policy very clearly does no obligate train crews to permit photography on trains.

In practice, photography on train platforms and on trains is commonplace and is not normally an issue. But, the new policy, advertised as a breakthrough for photographers rights, in fact documents Amtrak right to prohibit prohibit photography pretty much whenever they would like. This policy is like a politician's speech. You cannot just assume you know what it is trying to say. You have to read the words, and only the words, and see what it actually says. What this policy actually says regarding the protection of the right to take pictures near or on Amtrak trains is much, much less than assumed.

3 is there due to the controlled access nature of the platforms at NYP and other stations and directly relates to Kerzic's case. Amtrak claimed he was trespassing because there was no train on the platform at the time the police made contact with him. This just puts it into plain enough english. Consider it a valid "place" restriction.

4 is there as a "time, place or manner." restriction.

The US Supreme Court declared that for First Amendment purposes that Amtrak is considered a government entity. What does this mean? Glad I asked. What it means is that when the government takes to restrict First Amendment rights they can do so if the regulation is "content neutral" and is a legitimate "time, place or manner" restriction. Here, what they are doing is restricting all photography which would be content neutral. They are not restricting a specific type of photography (i.e., nudes). What 4 says is that the crew can restrict photography if the circumstances warrant.

I think the most important thing to realize is that First Amendment rights are not absolute and can be legitimately restricted. This is what the policy is trying to clarify.

 

[ourlouisiana]

We've never had a problem taking photos on Amtrak, (can't say the same of PATCO) of the coaches, the diner, and sleepers. In fact on Donna's first trip, our sleeper attendant even allowed us to photo and see both the family bedroom and handicapped bedroom on Superliner. ( We have a handicapped friend that would like to take a train ride with her family )

Not that we HAVE to, but we always ask on-board personnel if we can take photos, it NEVER hurts. On our recent trip on the Crescent, comiing into DC we asked about taking photos at the station. The conductor said it would be OK, but don't take any wierd photos. We asked what he considered wierd - he said someone was trying to take a photo of the traction motors.

On as earlier trip on the Crescent, I wanted to take photos out of the rear of the train. When I asked the conductor, he said he'd be glad to go back with me, the last coach was locked and he would have to open it for me. On the way we talked about photography, railfanning, and Amtrak.

A friendly smile, a friendly demeanor, and an attitude of respect never hurts, and will most of the time get you what you want, except a cab ride.

Whatever you do, if accosted, be respectful, they are doing their job - maybe wrongly informed, or in a dominance over you situation.

Politely get theit name and the other circumstances, and report it by certified mail or e-mail to Amtrak.

 

[RailFanLNK]

I put my camera away and obeyed her command! :lol: I'm more travel savvy then my girlfriend and her two daughters. I wasn't going to push my luck and have me sitting somewhere in NY state while they were sitting in DC. I did call Amtrak and filed a complaint. If no one else was able to take pics, then so be it, but when I was the only one told "you can't photograph" on Amtrak, and saw others clicking away, that is what really pertubed me.

 

[AlanB]

I put my camera away and obeyed her command! :lol: I'm more travel savvy then my girlfriend and her two daughters. I wasn't going to push my luck and have me sitting somewhere in NY state while they were sitting in DC. I did call Amtrak and filed a complaint. If no one else was able to take pics, then so be it, but when I was the only one told "you can't photograph" on Amtrak, and saw others clicking away, that is what really pertubed me.

And that was the right choice Al; to put the camera away avoid trouble that could well have left you standing on some platform along the way.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Just for my own knowledge how is platform access handled at Newark Penn? Is it the same as at NYP where platform access is restricted to tickethokders at the time the train is announced or is it open access in that let's say you had a ticket on NJT you could wait on the platform until the NJT train came in? I've only ridden through Newark and never been off the train or in the station.

Newark is totally open platformed. There are no valid ticket requirements, although I have never stood on their platforms without my very valid ticket home, and a charged and valid Metrocard which I can validly use to enter PATH platforms. I might not have a valid ticket for the train currently sitting on the platforms, but during some times of the day, 5 different minutes at Newark can see 5 different trains occupying the Tracks 3+4 platform.

As some may know, I often train watch at Newark Penn. I do not take photographs, but I do consist record in a small Moleskine or Black 'n Red.
Yesterday I was recording the Consist of the Southbound Silver Meteor.

When you say recording, do you mean writing it down or were you video/picture taking?

I assumed you meant writing down, but then this topic went off talking about photography rules and such, it has confused me.

Yes, I write it down in my notebook, car numbers. Then later I transfer that data to a larger nmotebook containing consists in the order of "Car Class- Car Type - Car Number - Car Name"

So in the small notebook, the Silver Meteors Consist page reads:

4/27/09

97- S Met

FP-657

H-Bag-1735

AIIC-116

"-20

"-75

"-81

AIID-20

HDin-8507

VS-11

"-25

"-31 NR

AC-bug

L 2min

Because thats all I can write down while walking and avoiding people

Then later I'll go to the Raymond Blvd concourse, sit down at a table, check my car notes, and create the following note in my bigger notebook:

4/27/09

#97 Silver Meteor

HHP-8 637

Heritage Baggage 1735 Coach/Conversion

Amfleet II Coach 25110

Amfleet II Coach 25020

Amfleet II Coach 25075

Amfleet II Coach 25081

Amfleet II Diner/Lite 28020

Heritage Diner 8507

Viewliner Sleeper 62011 "Gulf View"

Viewliner Sleeper 62025 "Northern View"

Viewliner Sleeper 62031 "Prairie View" *

Notes:

1) Assistant Conductor bugged me.

2) Train left 2 minutes late.

3) * 62031 "Prairie View" not carrying name.

Oh, by the way, FP stands for "Flying Phallus" because thats what my girlfriend calls the HHP-8. The letter code for the AEM-7 is SM for "Swedish meatball".

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

AIIC-116

I'm a little confused by the conversion function here

Amfleet II Coach 25110

 

[Steve4031]

GML. What you do is a common practice in the UK. It is called train spotting. When I was over there, I saw people with notebooks writing stuff down. Usually they focus on the engine numbers, and try to see if they can record all of the numbers of a certain class of engine. In England, they have something called platform tickets, which for a few pounds one could by a ticket for the day.

When I was on the OTOL railfest in Tampa last year, we got a tour of the streetcar line shops. While there, I saw a sign explaining behaviors that could help one profile a terrorist. I forgot the exact wording, but I could clearly see that some rail fanning activities fit the profile. The one phrase that caught my attention said something like, "showing unusual interest in operations . . ." I think photographing was in there too.

Later in the day, I was on the silver star headed to Miami with our group of wanted the car number of the baggage car which was in front of my sleeper. He texted me to see if I could do this. I agreed, walked up to the front of the car, and looked through the window at the end of the car for the car number of the baggage car. I got the info, and stood there and texted it back to my friend. I turned around to walk back my room. The HC room was righ there, with the AC or Conductor sitting right there watching me the whole time. I remembered the sign from the tour of the street car place, and was somewhat embarrassed. I explained what I was doing, and apologized for not asking her permission first. She stared at me for a moment, and then I went on my way.

So after reading that sign, I have been discrete about my interests. I usually take pictures, carry a scanner, and use employee timetables to determine the location of the train. But I only do this in my room. Though I have taken pictures from other parts of the train in the past.

The new policy gives the on board crew a lot of discretion. Hopefullly, they will not be too pesky this summer when I am on 1 and 19, because I want some good pics of the Huey P Long bridge, and the one across Lake Pontchartrain.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

AIIC-116

I'm a little confused by the conversion function here

Amfleet II Coach 25110

Thats because I mistyped. It was 25116.

 

[jackal]

GML. What you do is a common practice in the UK. It is called train spotting. When I was over there, I saw people with notebooks writing stuff down. Usually they focus on the engine numbers, and try to see if they can record all of the numbers of a certain class of engine. In England, they have something called platform tickets, which for a few pounds one could by a ticket for the day.

That's actually what made me post this post, wherein I mentioned that railfanning appeared to be slightly more respected in the UK than in the U.S. Also, the number of British railfans who help write Wikipedia articles on all things railroad seems to be a very much greater number per capita than in the U.S.--that is, given that they have 20% the U.S. population, it sure seems like they make more than 20% of the edits on Wikipedia! (You can always tell when a Brit is doing the edit, because they always write "railway" instead of "railroad," "points" instead of "switch," and [of course] "colour" instead of "color"!) Heck, we had some very heated discussions about what to call the Railway Signalling article, which started out with a UK-centered focus.

As well, some high-profile Brits are confirmed trainspotter. Not only was there a film with that title, Monty Python member Michael Palin is (despite a Monty Python sketch ridiculing a camel spotter :lol: ). Of course, there are several notable American railfans, too.