Be careful when taking pictures of Amtrak trains!

[Guest]

(Steve Barry is Managing Editor of Railroad and Railfan magazine. The

story will appear in the next issue of the magazine. If this is all

true, there could be very serious consequences for Amtrak and the Amtrak

Police Department. He posted this to another discussion board, and it

is being reposted here)

================================================== ==========

> August 23, 2005

> My biggest fear, in recounting what happened to me August 19, 2005 in New

> Orleans, is that people will have a very difficult time believing me. I am

> sure some folks will be sure I am embellishing the facts, exaggerating, or

> outright lying. None of this is the case. Everything I state here happened as

> I say it.

> I am a 60-year-old, recently retired pharmaceutical rep, with three grown sons.

> I have a particular fondness for trains, and riding on Amtrak. Friday morning,

> August 19, I departed Houston on the Sunset Limited, bound for Pensacola,

> Florida for a short vacation. The train had a layover of several hours in New

> Orleans, so I thought I would kill some time taking photographs of the terminal

> and Amtrak facilities. I had taken a lot of photographs along the way, and I

> have started a photographic album intended to document the Sunset Limited all

> the way across Louisiana. There is no way to know how much longer Amtrak will

> run this train.

> It is important to know that there are no signs on the platform forbidding

> passengers from walking down the platform into the area beyond where the lead

> engine would be, and no signs that prohibit passengers from taking photographs.

> There are "No Trespassing" signs on the gate to the Amtrak maintenance facility,

> on Earhart, but they are not visible on the platform. Two female Amtrak

> employees drove by and asked me what I was doing. I said I was taking

> photographs, and that rail photography was a hobby of mine. They admonished me

> to "watch out for the Amtrak police." I did not take that warning seriously,

> because I was not doing anything wrong. I joked that maybe "they would beat me

> up, so I could file a multi-million dollar lawsuit." That, being an idea so

> ridiculous, anyone would know it was meant in a humorous vein. I walked a

> little further down where I encountered a young guy, who was also an Amtrak

> employee. He inquired as to why I was photographing the switcher, and I

> explained to him that I was just a railfan, and I wanted photos of the Amtrak

> equipment. I asked if I could walk further down the platform to take a couple

> more photographs. He said he preferred I wait until he could get someone to

> accompany me down there. I said "fine", and I waited. By then the two female

> employees had returned and we were all standing around talking and waiting for

> whoever was supposed to come to see about my request. After a while an Amtrak

> policeman arrived. I figured he would say I could, or I could not go further

> down the platform. When he got out of his car, I could see he was already in a

> highly excited and agitated state. He was not in the mood to dialogue. He

> explained I was trespassing on private property (remember, no signs), and was

> not supposed to be taking photos. I was not about to argue with him, or be the

> least bit confrontational, knowing the reputation of New Orleans police, but

> this was an AMTRAK policeman, and I was an AMTRAK passenger. I merely inquired

> if this was not public property, since Amtrak is a publicly supported entity.

> At that he told me to turn around, and he handcuffed me.

> I naturally protested that I had done nothing wrong. But he was determined to

> handle things the way he had, I believe, decided to handle them before he ever

> showed up. He took me up to his office, and contacted someone, who I assume was

> his superior. He gave the person an embellished, and almost completely false

> account of what happened. For instance, he stated I had said, "This is public

> property, and I can be here if I want to be." I begged the policeman not to

> take me off the train, but he continued to repeat that I was "going to jail." I

> really got upset at this point and insisted he let me talk to someone in the

> Amtrak office. After asking him over and over to let me speak with someone, he

> finally put an agent on the phone. I told agent at the terminal I had done

> nothing wrong, and to please come get me out of this mess. The agent said he

> could not override the policeman, and generally conveyed the attitude that he

> did not give a damn what my predicament was. The policeman ran my ID, and, of

> course, it came back that I had never been arrested, and that I had no criminal

> record. He was unfazed by that information, and instructed the agent to remove

> my bag from the sleeper room I had occupied. In the stress of the moment I

> forgot about my large hanging bag that was in the lower level rack. It made it

> to Orlando, and I will get it back this week.

> As we were driving out of the terminal area, on the way to the Orleans Parish

> Prison, he pointed out the "No Trespassing" sign on the chain link gate, which

> is not visible to any passenger on the platform of the terminal. Upon arrival

> at the jail, I was processed in, and at that point the Amtrak officer committed

> a gross violation of procedure, by keeping my wallet, camera, and a pocket knife

> that the jailer had taken out of my pocket. This was to have major

> ramifications, later, when I finally had the opportunity to bail myself out of

> the facility. He had also erased certain photographs in my digital camera,

> while up in his office, a violation of my civil liberties. While waiting for

> him to show up I had photographed two A-10's that were flying over. He wanted

> to know why I had photographed the A-10's. I responded, "Because I'm a pilot."

> I do hold a private pilot's license, but my response seemed to stun him

> slightly, and he moved on.

 

[battalion51]

Well I'd have to say that's a pretty sad story, obviously some people take their jobs a little more serious than others. But, if someone does ask you not to go any further, don't go any further, no matter how rare or cool something might be.

 

[AMTRAK-P42]

Wow, that entire story makes me so angry I can't put it into words. New Orleans has given me trouble as well. I take the Crescent down there once or twice a year. Last year while I was down there, I was yelled at for taking a picture of the train like I was doing something horrible. I was so pissed, I walked 2 feet back from the engines, asked again "Can I take a photo from here", the AC unloading baggage stopped, and said "Yea, whatever you can see from there" :angry:

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

Well I'd have to say that's a pretty sad story, obviously some people take their jobs a little more serious than others. But, if someone does ask you not to go any further, don't go any further, no matter how rare or cool something might be.

I agree with this statement, here! This is a sad story, and I have a feeling someone was a little too out of proportion in their handling of the situation if indeed this is the truth! However, I must make a note here, as well as pose a couple of questions on the matter. First off, is Mr. Steve Barry the actual author of this posting which was copied from another discussion board? And is that legal here in this discussion board provided credit has been given?

Now for my issue on the matter (and I have been run off by authorities in places I may have had no business being there in my railfanning past). All public places such as "Walmart," "Home Depot," etc are places which the retail area inside the store as well as the parking area outside is an area of "their private property" which is utilized for the public's use!

If indeed Mr. Barry is the author of this post, and it is noted he is the managing editor of the previously mentioned railroad publication, surely he has to have some knowledge of the fine line of whether one is trespassing on railroad property or not. Some may agree with me and some may not, however, there is a fine line especially at Amtrak as well as most commuter operations. Trespassing on railroad right of way should be pretty well self explanatory once a person is aware they shouldn't be there! In a station, though, this can be kinda touchy, but the same generally holds true. At anywhere of the private property which is not utilized for the general public's use such as a restricted area, behind the ticket counter, etc, one is trespassing if they do not belong there whether it is posted plain as day or not. The same goes at the end of station platforms where the actual RR right of way begins. One can cross that fine line if they are not careful in thinking about where they are. If someone is misbehaving themself in the station or in any area where the property is utilized for the public's use, they can in fact be removed and isssued a "trespass" warrant. The same can be said on board the trains, too. One can't come out on to the rails, and have the attitude "I can do what I please" and expect to stay on board for very long! The railroad holds us employees responsible for the general public's safety while they are with us. If we work in areas where the property is not utilized for the public's use, the general public are not supposed to be there. They should be informed by an employee, and/or by means of signage, etc.

It sounds to me that the author of that post was somewhat aware of the risk they were taking before entering. Maybe the employees should have been more clear when they told him to be aware of Amtrak Police. Had I been told that, I would have left immediately and went back to the station waiting area (the area utilized for the general public) to stay out of the potential situation. That would be the cue to me, "Oh they don't really want me to go over there!" Anyway, I have dealt with authority many of times in my travels as an employee and as a railfan. I have encountered the guys/gals just doing their jobs, and I have dealt with the "macho" type as well. Sounds like the macho kind may be the case here. But bat51 hits the nail on the head. Don't go any farther if asked (or even implied) not to do so. Hopefully the Amtrak policeman didn't get out of hand as far as it sounds here. The truth will come out in the long run. Sad story, though. OBS...

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

there is more to this story that was left out to why he was arrested :angry:

 

[MrFSS]

What is that "more"???

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

The person was in an area that he wasn't suppose to be in.

 

[MrFSS]

I figured there was more to this. There are always at least two sides to these stories. I was a claim adjuster for 40 years before retiring and you wouldn't believe some of the things I had people tell me that turned out to not always be the whole truth!

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

there is more to this story that was left out to why he was arrested :angry:

I was pretty sure of that!

However, I can only make my presumption with the info I have at the time! The truth always comes out in the end. OBS...

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

I figured there was more to this. There are always at least two sides to these stories. I was a claim adjuster for 40 years before retiring and you wouldn't believe some of the things I had people tell me that turned out to not always be the whole truth!

You are so correct here. I will add the following to the two sides to every story bit......

IMHO there are actually three truths! Your truth, my truth, and real truth (the facts as God sees it). Heh heh.... just another way of enhancing your post! Couldn't resist it! LOL... OBS...

 

[AmtrakFan]

This is very sad it happened I had no problem when Photographing in CUS on Aug 21st. But I did check with Mangement this was the EB thing.

 

[Midland Valley]

While in Ft. Worth waiting for the Heartland Flyer to leave, I took several pictures of the HF and the two Eagles which were there at the same time; one of whcih I had just gotten off of. I would have liked to have gotten a good picture of the whole HF from the Cabbage car on the end. But just common sense told me that was a little too far down the non platformened area to be going.

 

[Sam Damon]

Like everyone else, I hate to shoot from the hip without hearing both sides. NOPD does have a bad rep, from everything I've heard and read.

This notwithstanding, in my experience I have run into cops who are on power trips just because they have a badge, and you don't. Only the utmost politeness keeps trouble at bay in those situations. If this account proves true, the Amtrak cop displayed incredible boneheadedness in doing what he did. Look at the situation: a sixtiesh guy, probably decently dressed, in an area where he might not know he was not supposed to be, snapping pictures. Cops with street smarts do not let things escalate beyond their level. Instead, they defuse the situation, uphold the law, and no one gets hurt.

What if this guy had a heart attack or stroke, and keeled over while in Amtrak or police custody? How many lawyers do you think would be chasing after the National Railroad Passenger Corporation? the New Orleans PD? the RR? Lots. Bunches. Piles. If this guy gets a lawyer, look out. The last queerness of French law in Louisana code went out about a decade or so ago, IIRC.

Now for my issue on the matter (and I have been run off by authorities in places I may have had no business being there in my railfanning past). All public places such as "Walmart," "Home Depot," etc are places which the retail area inside the store as well as the parking area outside is an area of "their private property" which is utilized for the public's use!

Obs, you're getting on somewhat shaky ground here (emphasis on somewhat). You generally cannot walk into a store at the mall, and begin merrily snapping pictures for the newspaper. OTOH, in some states, the mall area outside the store is considered "public commons" and you are allowed to take pictures and shoot video. This, despite the fact a private developer owns the mall itself. An Amtrak station is somewhat similar; there's areas in a station clearly meant for the public to use. Where the "public area" ends can be a matter of some debate, especially if there is no signage.

This one, if true, will end up in court after things get sorted out from the hurricane.

 

[Sam Damon]

Oh, yes, this Barry guy is *not* the author of the letter.

 

[Sam Damon]

Rather than edit my previous longish post, here's some material I came across from The Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. You can find them on the web here.

Newsworthy events such as arrests, fires or demonstrations frequently occur on private property. But property owners or police sometimes deny journalists access to homes, businesses, and even seemingly public places such as shopping centers and privately-owned housing developments. Even when reporters gain access without being stopped, property owners may sue them after the fact, seeking damages for trespass or invasion of privacy.
The U.S. Supreme Court has not yet considered whether the media have the right to follow news onto private property. Lower courts that have examined the issue have rendered widely varying opinions.

Courts frequently focus on whether the media had consent either from the owner or from law enforcement officials to enter the property to gather news. When reporters receive explicit consent, they should have little or no problem gaining access or defending coverage from any trespass and privacy suits.

In many cases, journalists enter without asking permission and the owner is not present to object, or is present but fails to voice objection. The court must then determine whether the owner's silence amounted to "implied consent."

<snip>

llinois: The Illinois Supreme Court, in a case decided prior to PruneYard Shopping Center, rejected the First Amendment claims of a group who entered a shopping center to distribute leaflets condemning racial tensions in that town. The court followed the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling in Lloyd Corp. v. Tanner, which rejected the First Amendment claims of persons barred from distributing anti-war literature in a shopping mall. (People v. Sterling)

More recently, the Illinois Supreme Court ruled that a food store that allowed members of the general public access to its property for non-commercial expressive conduct could exclude persons collecting signatures on a political nominating petition. The high court held that the free speech provision of the Illinois Constitution does not apply to actions of private individuals, but only to actions by the state. (People v. Diguida)

 

[tp49]

Like everyone else, I hate to shoot from the hip without hearing both sides. NOPD does have a bad rep, from everything I've heard and read.

Only one problem, it wasn't NOPD it was Amtrak PD, if it was NOPD it would be a different thing. This story was posted on other RR message boards. I for one would love to read the police report as I am willing to bet that there are fact that were omitted to make the officer react in the way he did. Generally there would have to be some sort of provocation to elicit a response like that.

 

[lancet]

"joked that maybe "they would beat me

> up, so I could file a multi-million dollar lawsuit." That, being an idea so

> ridiculous, anyone would know it was meant in a humorous vein."

Somehow that conveys to me an abrasive attitude, and I would guess that was his demeanor throughout the ordeal. I was taking pictures inside the chicago station and a police officer asked me not to take pictures. I apologized and stopped. Story ended. The author obviously had an 'attitude problem' and brought the results on himself. An example of our times today: disrespect authority and scream "civil rights'

I bet if he was polite and respected their request, he would have been back on that train with no problems.

My two cents worth

Lancet

 

[Chatter163]

WARNING: Previous attempts at discussing this subject have usually had negative consequences, in that posters were not always civil and/or tolerant. Recommend ceasing further discussions along these lines.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

While we may not know all of the facts, it is also true that Amtrak owed that person the highest duty of care. As a passenger, which the person was, he is an "economic invitee", or "business invitee", that is, he was on Amtrak property for the purpose of generating a profit for Amtrak. As such, he is the direct opposite of a trespasser. A trespassing sign on the boundary of the property is NOT directed toward an economic invitee. He has been specifically, personally invited onto the property by the business. If in fact there were no signs which would have told the person to go no farther, and if he was noticed by Amtrak employees but was not told by any of those Amtrak employees that he must go no farther, then Amtrak is indeed at fault for the arrest. An economic invitee is owed the highest standard of care by the business that invited him, and any limits placed upon that person have to be obvious, unambiguous, and clearly communicated to him. That is a duty owed to him by the business. You can't assume he will figure it out, you can't use "common sense" as an excuse for the business not meeting it's obligation to that person. If there was no sign that he would have passed telling him to go no farther, and employees saw him but no employee told him not to, it was an improper arrest.

 

[Sam Damon]

Only one problem, it wasn't NOPD it was Amtrak PD, if it was NOPD it would be a different thing.  This story was posted on other RR message boards.  I for one would love to read the police report as I am willing to bet that there are fact that were omitted to make the officer react in the way he did.  Generally there would have to be some sort of provocation to elicit a response like that.

Tp49, I grant that it was Amtrak RR Police, and not NOPD.

OTOH, police in a given area tend to reflect the policies and standards of the largest force in the area. IMO, RR police are no exception. Considering how desperate the RRs are these days for qualified law enforcement types, I would not be surprised to learn the officer in question either:

a.) worked for NOPD at one time

or

b.) worked as a sheriff's deputy in the NO area

or

c.) was rejected by NOPD.

I work in the news business, and have heard and read of a number of horror stories concerning non-locals versus NOPD. Generally the folks who work in NO are okay with NOPD, but outsiders can get into a world of hurt very quickly. NOPD has had a number of corruption problems within the past decade or so, and it is quite possible the officer in question was hired by Amtrak because he was an available body capable of passing a background check.

At any rate, the story needs further verification. I take the rider's claim at face value; why does he need to lie? Why would someone make this story up? OTOH, the cop has every reason to do that.

As that mighty fine President Ronald Reagan said, "Trust, but verify", which is where I'll leave this discussion.

 

[Sam Damon]

Somehow that conveys to me an abrasive attitude, and I would guess that was his demeanor throughout the ordeal.  I was taking pictures inside the chicago station and a police officer asked me not to take pictures.  I apologized and stopped.  Story ended.  The author obviously had an 'attitude problem' and brought the results on himself.  An example of our times today: disrespect authority and scream "civil rights'
I bet if he was polite and respected their request, he would have been back on that train with no problems.

My two cents worth

Lancet

There exists a way to be respectful of authority while asserting your rights.

I personally do not tolerate that sort of stuff (people telling me I can't take pictures in a public space) while in the news business, on the clock. When law enforcement officers approach me and begin talking to me, it is always "Sir" or "Ma'am" as the case may be. I remind them, ever so politely, that I have a right to gather information in a public space, and if I can't, do they have a valid reason for me not to gather information? If you have a video camera or audio recorder, roll the tape. Keep it going throughout the whole conversation. Police hate it when, after they've done something that might infringe on First Amendment rights, out comes the tape making them look silly. I have to reemphasize, though, be utterly respectful and polite to the law enforcement officer in every conversation you have with them. If the officer is a jerk, roll with it. Move along. Whatever you do, don't get into a heated argument with them. You will lose.

Nine times out of ten, I get my pictures. The other time, I will simply move.

 

[musher]

Cops with street smarts do not let things escalate beyond their level.  Instead, they defuse the situation, uphold the law, and no one gets hurt.

Maybe that's why this guy was an Amtrak cop and not a street cop. :unsure:

 

[caravanman]

On my last visit to America, we stood in line in the hot sun for ages to buy tickets for the ferry, to see the statue of liberty in New York. Right at the head of the queue was a notice about "no weapons, etc, etc". Now as a tourist I had a swiss army knife for peeling fruit with a 2" blade, which was of sentimental value to me. This "weapon" was confiscated before I could proceed onto the ferry. Now my point is this. What possible use would such a miserable blade be if I wished to damage the statue? Confiscation seemed an unthinking act which only served to alienate me, and the hundred others each day the officer said were confiscated. Public safety is important around trains, and I guess that employees do get fed up of train fans getting in the way, but human nature being what it is, some employees prefer to stick to the rules rather than use their own initiative towards their fellow man!

Ed. B)

 

[gswager]

It prevents from hurting someone like putting knife at someone's throat for a "ransom". I do carry pocket knife every day at work, but I wouldn't carry it in sensitive areas such as airport, courtroom, etc.

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

Now for my issue on the matter (and I have been run off by authorities in places I may have had no business being there in my railfanning past). All public places such as "Walmart," "Home Depot," etc are places which the retail area inside the store as well as the parking area outside is an area of "their private property" which is utilized for the public's use!

Obs, you're getting on somewhat shaky ground here (emphasis on somewhat). You generally cannot walk into a store at the mall, and begin merrily snapping pictures for the newspaper. OTOH, in some states, the mall area outside the store is considered "public commons" and you are allowed to take pictures and shoot video. This, despite the fact a private developer owns the mall itself. An Amtrak station is somewhat similar; there's areas in a station clearly meant for the public to use. Where the "public area" ends can be a matter of some debate, especially if there is no signage.

This one, if true, will end up in court after things get sorted out from the hurricane.

If I may....... "somewhat" in regard to the action of taking pictures, etc. But the point of my posting is to illustrate the "fine line" a store, railroad, or any company which provides public area for whatever use or service they are selling! My posting really has nothing (or much at least) to do with taking pictures per se. It was meant to be on a more general note.

In my past career I was a retail manager. I will have you know pretty much everywhere (I realize there are some differences in some states) if a person is in the store area or the parking area, and it is witnessed they are violating fed/state/local law, or even simply not behaving themself while on the property, the company (or the land owner if need be) can call police and have them removed, either on their own or by force (any way the wind blows police should be present in such a case IMHO)! I had it done at my retail store in the past, and I have had to have it done on the train! And I will continue to do so when the situation gets that far. We hate to throw people off the train or out of the station by the way!

Now taking pictures, gathering info, or other reasons, are on a case by case basis. Someone taking pictures in the station, on the train, outside the train when at a short layover, whatever, is no big deal (to me at least)! Now if they are taking close up pictures of the wheels, couplers, brakes, etc. I will report them in order to have someone in proper authority talk to them. We had a guy about six months ago over on the "Silver Service" who was taking pictures of the air conditioning vents and other stuff. When pulled of the train by Amtrak and local police, it was found out later he was on the FBI and Homeland Security's most wanted list! So it pays for us (employees, passengers, and railfans) to be vigilant!

Mr Damon, this is a sad story if you ask me, and I surely hope the Amtrak police personel involved conducted themselves professionally. I am sure they did (based on my dealings with Amtrak Police before and after employment at Amtrak) as there is probably more to this story than what we are aware at this time. As I said in an earlier post, the truth will come out in the long run!

I also conduct myself similar to how you mentioned in one of your ealier posts. Being I do so, I usually get what I want rarely with any troubles, and I am able to get that picture, or obtain something, or be able to speak with someone VIP, etc. OBS...