Amtrak secret coupon smorgasbord - is it ethical?

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Here, it's acceptable to have coupons or advertising that lowers the cost for those that are willing to go through the trouble of noting them (I see tons of ads for things that simply say "Mention this ad and get x% off"). In other parts of the world, it may not be.

Here, it's acceptable for all prices to exclude the tax. Elsewhere, tax is included in the price on the shelf.

It's not a matter of right or wrong, nor a matter of morals or ethics. It's just, simply, a difference in culture.

Deal with it.

And scrapping the A123 code isn't going to get a train to Las Vegas any time soon.
 
AlanB said:
One, it may have been a good thing that you didn't get that family room with your parents, as two of the beds are child sized. This room is not really designed to accomodate three adults.
Two, even if you had known a two for one code at the time you were buying the tickets, it still wouldn't have helped. The two for one codes are only valid in coach, you cannot use them in a sleeper. So even if the agent did tell you the code, it wouldn't have mattered, because the computer would not have let her use it for your tickets.
- With one parent under 1m60, the other under 1m65 I am not the tallest guy around either - 1m75 at best. I am familiar with the beds there - we would fit like kings.

- It's enough if one who does no uses the 2-for-one code (=me) gets the family sleeper. Parents could use it regardless of the sleeper. The coupon does not PROHIBIT occupy the sleeper, just you can't reserve it on the ticket you use. If there are three of you and if you are going to occupy the standatd room or if there are three small adults in the Family Bedroom, one ticket with 25% off and a pair of tickets with buy one-get one free will do the job well.

- To "madisonwi": tax being included or excluded is a pure accounting issue and the amount of tax is public information anyway. Giving $3 off the Wienerschnitzel in the restaurant to the customers who bring in the fifth page of Winnie The Pooh is a different story. I understand it maybe very difficult to accept the fact, a long-lasting business practice is actually immoral - but smoking in public was accepted for an even longer period of time than the coupon-madness. We should not assume somewhat is good or bad just because everyone does it.

- To PRR 60: what you wrote is simply amazing... Pardon my ignorance. I was thinking until two days ago, Amtrak, as an organization closely related to goverment would "police" its own policy better than airlines. Now, if the airlines are stronger forced to obey business ethics than Amtrak - that actually means one thing: who enforces is it likely does share my opinion, the coupons are a bit more than just harmless pieces of paper. Also it means, quite a feew things went awfully wrong with Amtrak long ago.

- To everyone: if what PRR 60 is telling is correct and I have no doubt it is - breaking Amtrak into different entities and playing even more games won't make things simpler on that front either. What I want is an Amtrak which is granted a pretty much unlimited cheque every year but on the other side it has to spend that money on equioment, maintenance, new routes, new trains and not some gargantuan salary of few executives like it happned a few years ago.
 
Guest_Gyuri_FT said:
- With one parent under 1m60, the other under 1m65 I am not the tallest guy around either - 1m75 at best. I am familiar with the beds there - we would fit like kings.
Well 1m60 converts to 5 feet 3 inches. The longest child bed in the family room only measures 4 feet 9 inches. That would leave the shortest member of your family to squish into the child's bed which is 6 inches or 15.24 centimeters too short. Either that or your parents would have needed to share the lower adult sized bed, while giving you the upper adult bed.

Now I can't decide for you if that would or would not be comfortable, and I'm not trying to, I simply was pointing out that the room was not designed for your party.

Guest_Gyuri_FT said:
- It's enough if one who does no uses the 2-for-one code (=me) gets the family sleeper. Parents could use it regardless of the sleeper. The coupon does not PROHIBIT occupy the sleeper, just you can't reserve it on the ticket you use. If there are three of you and if you are going to occupy the standatd room or if there are three small adults in the Family Bedroom, one ticket with 25% off and a pair of tickets with buy one-get one free will do the job well.
You cannot book someone a coach ticket and then bring them into the bedroom. It is against the rules. You may find an attendant or two that might allow you to bend the rules, but I wouldn't bet on it, especially since it means more work for them.

All tickets for passengers occupying the sleeper, must be part of the same reservation and they must have the room/car number printed on the ticket.
 
If you are in coach and do an onboard upgrade, do they issue you a new ticket onboard? If you and a friend, both in coach, jointly go for an upgrade, what's the difference, in effective outcome, from the scenario he suggested? I can't say that I see one. Doesn't the upgrade to sleeper include the meal costs for however many people the sleeper purchased is designed to accomodate?
 
AmtrakWPK said:
If you are in coach and do an onboard upgrade, do they issue you a new ticket onboard?
I'm not quite sure what the conductor issues you for an onboard upgrade, beyond a receipt for having paid the additional monies, since I've never done one. Other's like B51 or Trainboy, or OBS might be better able to answer that question.

AmtrakWPK said:
If you and a friend, both in coach, jointly go for an upgrade, what's the difference, in effective outcome, from the scenario he suggested?
The difference would be that one paid for the upgrade, the conductor informs Amtrak space control (so that the room doesn't get sold further down the line), and he informs the sleeping car attendant.

If you had used a buy one/get one free deal for coach, then your upgrade price would have included both the sleeper charge and the rail fare for the pax riding free.

Gyuri's method does not have any Amtrak personel involved in moving people from coach to a sleeper. That would be a violation of the rules. Even telling the sleeping car attendant would not be valid, since it is not his decision to make.

AmtrakWPK said:
Doesn't the upgrade to sleeper  include the meal costs for however many people the sleeper purchased is designed to accomodate?
It does, however Amtrak policy requires that each additional passenger traveling in the room pay for their rail fare. Amtrak already charges the lowest railfare for those extra passengers in the room. They don't have to give away that extra railfare by allowing someone to use a buy one/get one free coupon or discount code.

One other small point in Gyuri's case, the room would have included two adult meals and two child meals. Not three adult meals.
 
Chatter163 said:
The OP sounds as if he is here to argue, rather than ask a question or make a simple point.  Sorry, but that is my take on it.   <_<
No, I think that the OP is just very passionate in his beliefs. I'm not sure that I fully agree with some of what he's stated, but he does have some points that are certainly worth debating and considering.

After all this is America where we pride ourselves on the right to free speech.

So as long as the OP doesn't get into personal attacks and uses civil language, he has every right to express his views, ideas, and frustrations.

I will also once again warn and caution everyone to keep this discussion on the topic and to not get personal. Otherwise I will be forced to lock this topic.
 
AlanB said:
AmtrakWPK said:
If you are in coach and do an onboard upgrade, do they issue you a new ticket onboard?
I'm not quite sure what the conductor issues you for an onboard upgrade, beyond a receipt for having paid the additional monies, since I've never done one. Other's like B51 or Trainboy, or OBS might be better able to answer that question.

AmtrakWPK said:
If you and a friend, both in coach, jointly go for an upgrade, what's the difference, in effective outcome, from the scenario he suggested?
The difference would be that one paid for the upgrade, the conductor informs Amtrak space control (so that the room doesn't get sold further down the line), and he informs the sleeping car attendant.

If you had used a buy one/get one free deal for coach, then your upgrade price would have included both the sleeper charge and the rail fare for the pax riding free.

Gyuri's method does not have any Amtrak personel involved in moving people from coach to a sleeper. That would be a violation of the rules. Even telling the sleeping car attendant would not be valid, since it is not his decision to make.

AmtrakWPK said:
Doesn't the upgrade to sleeper  include the meal costs for however many people the sleeper purchased is designed to accomodate?
It does, however Amtrak policy requires that each additional passenger traveling in the room pay for their rail fare. Amtrak already charges the lowest railfare for those extra passengers in the room. They don't have to give away that extra railfare by allowing someone to use a buy one/get one free coupon or discount code.

One other small point in Gyuri's case, the room would have included two adult meals and two child meals. Not three adult meals.
- The ticket in this case would be similar to railsale: the upgrade cannot be on-line but the agents

Conductors have usually no issues as long as the ticket does not explicitly exlude upgrades. That case was only with the eBay ticket sales - but the conductors have overridden that rule a few times. If one of the party has an upgrade it's sufficient. I never did mean some kind of "sneaking in" in the sleeper, just going through the usual choreography with conductor/reservation.

- The issue was less for arguing, but FYI: my parents areleady arrived here in pretty upset mood. Namely our Embassy in Budapest did set up a private company which charge $2/Minute + tax for collecting the Hungarian citizens private data and submitting it to the embassy for visa application. This "service" is manadory. However, there is a "coupon" even here. Elderly folks over 62 are exempt from that and they can just drop in. This "coupon" is never publicised and no one will tell them. Who has Internet and patience can look a the embassy home page and find it burried pretty deep. Does it sound familiar? How not to be passionate after that? What picture we do submit to our closest allies in NATO. The guards at embassy are instructed to chase away everyone unless they explicitly do not ask for being allowed in due > 65 age. I am actually sure, that private company was set up by some relatives of some embassy employees... But they hide pretty well behind their 900-style number and PO box. Not a nice experience. I guess. Here is the web site of the embassy - enjoy. In English the main info is here:

http://budapest.usembassy.gov/niv_overview.html

Please note, no mentioning the dicount for >65 year seniors. However, if you can read English and have patience to browse, you will find this page:

http://budapest.usembassy.gov/how_to_apply.html THERE and only THERE the "discount coupon" is mentioned (see the "Who may use the walk-in system") Pretty clever, hugh?

- Now after all of that the things continue as you know. Another coupon, another lession for them. IMHO both cases are corruption at it's finest, but you may disagree.

I would like also say - back to Amtrak - the no-nonsence fare structure is a strength of most railroads worldwide. We should demand it from Amtrak, too.
 
Guest_Gyuri_FT said:
- The ticket in this case would be similar to railsale: the upgrade cannot be on-line but the agents Conductors have usually no issues as long as the ticket does not explicitly exlude upgrades. That case was only with the eBay ticket sales - but the conductors have overridden that rule a few times. If one of the party has an upgrade it's sufficient. I never did mean some kind of "sneaking in" in the sleeper, just going through the usual choreography with conductor/reservation.
Well if I understand you correctly, it's not really like upgrading a normal ticket to a sleeper.

My understanding is as follows:

- You were buying the family room on your ticket.

- You wanted to buy two coach tickets using a buy one get one free offer.

That would leave you in a position that doesn't help. Your parents could not have upgraded to the family room, since it was not empty. You were already occupying it.

So any conductor confronted with that could decide to be nice, but he/she doesn't have to. Their other option would have been to charge you for the second fare that you had gotten for free, while reducing the charge for the other ticket that your parents did pay for, to the normal rail fare for a sleeper room. Then you or they would have had to pay for the difference before your parents could have joined you in the room.

Again, Amtrak policy is that 2 for 1 deals cannot be used in sleepers. So even splitting the reservation should not have allowed you to circumvent that rule.
 
"A committee is an animal with eight hind feet." Considering the fare and discount structure, it must have been designed by committee. Somewhere in the past few years I received an e-mail entitled "If airlines sold paint...." I'll see if I can find it and post it. It's hilarious and makes the point, in spades, as to how completely ludicrous and insane the airlines' fare structures are. Amtrak isn't quite that bad, although sometimes it sure seems they are leaning in that direction.

I am still unalterably convinced that (1) if they create a discount, (2) program it into their reservation computer, and (3) publish or disseminate that discount ANYWHERE, then ANYONE that meets the route/stations/dates and whatever other criteria were programmed into the reservation computer, should be entitled to know about that discount and to use it. Amtrak's not supposed to be a lottery, where you just happen to luck out with a discount by tripping over it, or a scavenger hunt, where you have to go do extensive web searches to find the discount codes they won't tell you about. And I think that there really ought to be web sites where anyone and everyone that has found a discount code for any product or service, whether the company happened to reveal it to them or not, could post that information for the rest of the world to use. If the company doesn't like that, it can cancel the codes it doesn't want to have, or not issue them in the first place.

Expressio unius excludio ulterius est is a legal construct that means if you say or do one thing you exclude logical alternatives to that utterance or action. If you create a specific discount code, valid for certain route segments, certain dates, etc., and program it into your reservation system so that if those codes are entered, the discounts will be applied, then logically you intend them to be used. Otherwise the money you paid in wages to the people who programmed that information into your reservations system has been thrown into the garbage. If the latter is the case, then Congress and the administration have one more argument for reform.
 
AlanB said:
Guest_Gyuri_FT said:
- The ticket in this case would be similar to railsale: the upgrade cannot be on-line but the agents Conductors have usually no issues as long as the ticket does not explicitly exlude upgrades. That case was only with the eBay ticket sales - but the conductors have overridden that rule a few times.  If one of the party has an upgrade it's sufficient. I never did mean some kind of "sneaking in" in the sleeper, just going through the usual choreography with conductor/reservation.
Well if I understand you correctly, it's not really like upgrading a normal ticket to a sleeper.

My understanding is as follows:

- You were buying the family room on your ticket.

- You wanted to buy two coach tickets using a buy one get one free offer.

That would leave you in a position that doesn't help. Your parents could not have upgraded to the family room, since it was not empty. You were already occupying it.

So any conductor confronted with that could decide to be nice, but he/she doesn't have to. Their other option would have been to charge you for the second fare that you had gotten for free, while reducing the charge for the other ticket that your parents did pay for, to the normal rail fare for a sleeper room. Then you or they would have had to pay for the difference before your parents could have joined you in the room.

Again, Amtrak policy is that 2 for 1 deals cannot be used in sleepers. So even splitting the reservation should not have allowed you to circumvent that rule.
Alan,

To resolve that part of debate is quite easy. My CSL departs in one and half hours, so I just ask the question to the agent at the station. You maybe right on that. This asking won't hurt. I will post what they did told me. I will also ask the conductor during the trip at the time he is not busy. Of course their answer cannot be taken with 100% but at leat we will hear more. For the rest provided we accept the coupons as necessary evil Amtrak WPK is right, of course. I am still surprised, the system of rebats/coupons/etc. has such a strong support here.
 
Guest_Gyuri_FT said:
Alan,
To resolve that part of debate is quite easy. My CSL departs in one and half hours, so I just ask the question to the agent at the station. You maybe right on that. This asking won't hurt. I will post what they did told me. I will also ask the conductor during the trip at the time he is not busy. Of course their answer cannot be taken with 100% but at leat we will hear more. For the rest provided we accept the coupons as necessary evil Amtrak WPK is right, of course. I am still surprised, the system of rebats/coupons/etc. has such a strong support here.
I may be too late, but I hope that you have a good trip, even if it's not quite the trip you had hoped for. :)

I will certainly be interested to see what info you collect on your trip. Again, I'm only repeating what I've been told and/or read.

As for supporting the idea of coupon's I'm not sure that I support it, as much as I understand and accept it. I'd sure love to know every code and to be able to save as much money as I can while traveling.
 
This is not a complicated or secret element of marketing or advertising. Discounts are given to all kinds of groups for all kinds of reasons - from the simple membership-type such as AAA, Student Advantage, Veterans Advantage, etc. These are advertised and promoted to the individual group membership base and generally there is a need to show a valid membership card to obtain the discount. The AAA Show Your Card and Save program is probably the most well know.

There is nothing sinister or unethical about it.

Other discounts happen for other reasons - the Campus Visit Program - designed to drive business to Amtrak from high shcool seniors wanting to visit colleges and universities - with their parents. This progarm allows the parents to travel for free with the use of a discount code. Sure, there are people who will use this that are not supposed to, but that is rare. This discount code is advertised and promoted to that specific market segment.

Other discount program are similarily designed - for specific geographic markets - for specific target markets or for specific market segments - i.e. Rail & Cruise programs.

The various discount codes also allow a company to track production to see if there is an adaquate return on investment - or simply to see if the program worked as designed.

There is an old advertising statement that says: "I know that 50% of my advertising works, I just am not sure which 50%."

Conspiracy theories are present for almost everything, but this is simply not one that will fly!
 
Aloha

What a hot topic.

Interesting about the earlier list is, organizations I am a member of, have never mentioned the travel code. I only knew as a member of AAA or when I reach 62, there were discounts. Now I am aware of 5 additional discounts that could apply depending on when and where I want/need to go. Mahalo
 
The first part of the trip was completed. From railfan point of view:

- there was a refurbed ElCapitan bi-level car (I think they call it "Pacific Lounge?") - anyway it was in superb condition, what a piece of history. The glass decoration was new with CSL motive, I was pretty much surprized, they offered us FREE wine tasting.

- there was "Ohio" (did not note the manuf. number) in the front, followed by "Missouri" (S/N 32093, "mine" car) and "Kansas" (S/N 32084).

- as usual in USA, attendants, personal, etc. did their best they could. This kind of service level is unknown on "regular" trains across Europe and Asia, only on "Orient" series. According a Canadian passenger, the "niceties" like linen etc. are not on par on "Canadian", but for a REGULAR train it is pretty extensive. Question is, do we REALLY need it to that extent - later about it. I rather use a "plebeian" 54-sleeper in Europe for $10/bed (OK, if I am in more generous mood, the 16-sleeper with 2-bed cabins for $30 is better) - without all amazing extras even couch passengers are offered here. I mean, the attendants DO try to satisfy evey wish of passengers, they are working under gruesome pressure, esp. on CSL due delays. Over there not much (unless you are on Transsib, there the distance is simply too long, you will socialize with the attendant, no matter what).

- Until SJC our "sweetheat" You-Pee was not working as it should. I even asked the attendant, what happened with the train, it arrived in SJC about 20 minute too early (due "padding"). She and I agreed, someone was really sick that day at UnionPathetic or the UP gods had the day off.

- UP realized the mistake and did punish us with roughly 2 hours at Dunsmuir. After Dunsmuir the things did slow down due a minor issue with the track, but after a few hours - to my surprize - the engineers decided they are over 14 hours in the shift, so they just stopped in the middle of nowhere and we arrived at Klamath Falls ca. 7 or 8 hours late - as we were told with a new engineer crew. I know about the 14 hour rule, but I wonder, why we did stay extra 4 or so hours rather than drive the remaining 20 into Klamath Falls. Besides, if the things are so difficult and delays are expected, an extra engine crew (just in case) in the crew-sleeper would be useful.

- After Klamath Falls both "Missouri" and "Kansas" did break down to a lesser degree (no toilet, heat problems). Our attendant, Angela did fight with machinery and after many hours somehow "cracked" the secret forcing the relais (and thus the toilets and heating) back to normal. She told me, she suddently recalled some tricks and tried. Not sure about the poor "Kansas", but since I have a habit first TRY OUT the toilet on a train before using it, the working "Ohio" was only a few steps away.

- All in one I landed up with extra dinner and thus extra steak (we don't eat steaks that much in Hungary, so it was an extra bonus). Arriving in hotel was late, but very pleasant. The MaxRail in Portland rules, too - not just German Bundesbahn! A long and fast ride for $1.80 in the middle of night - wow. San Jose could really use this kind of transportation, ours is not that great.

Back to the original issue. Since the train was early I was busy validating parking lot coupon (OK, this is the ONLY coupon I like!) with Amtrak agent and running back-forth. Our attendant, Angela was waiting outside to make sure I do not miss the train - even it was 10 or so minutes too early. So I decided not to entertain the ticket agent - she had other things to do. On the train I asked Angela when is the best to approach the Conductor with a theoretical question about the two-for-one and a separate ticket, she told me before SAC is not good, they are busy but after SAC there will be new crew. Indeed, it was. Angela also told me, a few days ago a conductor told her the on-board upgrade price is the same as in the computer. We discussed it and agreed, it sounds suspicious because there is no way a conductor would know the actual price since it is not fixed. A gentleman was upgrading in SAC, but I missed asking him what he paid. Finally after SAC I tried to approach the conductor as he passed by and - surprise(?) the conductor simply refused to answer any questions like "what if" or "what is currently the upgrade price". After few words I did see, it does not make sense to force the issue. On his side conductor was feeling guilty and murmled somewhat that he can't tell now anyway what will be later and can't sell or issue any upgrade for a future thing - so I guess, he was following certain directions from above and these directions are: DO NOT TELL PRICE INFORMATION.

And here we are again. Coupons, hidden codes, withholding the information... and so on. One conductor refusing to tell, how much are the rooms selling for. An other conductor (as Angela told me and as we suspect) telling attendants straight lies. On the other side (according Angela) Amtrak is hiring consultants who approach coach paseengers and try to sell them sleeprs. Indeed, there is stuff to sell. From SJC there were only 180 passengers and many de-trained at Klamath Falls due CSL being late. On "Ohio" the entire upper deck of roomettes was empty.

- With such ridership I see no point Amtrak was raising the price above $130 (as one coach passenger told me) on the day of departure.

- Generally, from our approach (besides coupons being evil) there is perhaps one more thing which will stear quite a bit of feelings here. Namely, I simply do not see the point of what Amtrak is doing.

I am pretty much aware, to tase German and Californian wine in a restored vintage 1950-s car is POSSIBLE in Germany, Hungary and Russia. To do so, you have to pay roughy $1000/day (and feel lucky) or ride a train for, say, one hour and pay $100. The job done on ElCapitan car was terrific - but I feel, such cars are okay on tourist trains occupied by honeymooners, wedding or corporate parties. What I paid (=$222 , $54 for the ticket and $168 for the bed) does not pay a small bit to compensate for the efforts on that car alone. They should ask $3000. It is a terrific touch to ride it for $222, but there is nothing for free. So if more plain vanilla Talgo cars with plastic interior (or god forbid - Russian streamliner "commodity" sleepers for 36 people) will be bought - I think it's a better use of taxpayers money. We need so many cars, seaters, sleepers, diners, what-not ... even parlor cars ... well, you can buy even a Talgo or other European parlor car fresh out of works. It will be cheaper, it is full of plastic interior, modern, safe - but not even near as romantic. Amtrak should decide, do they want to be a SERVICE company serving general public (much like German Rail, Russian Rail, China Rail) or BUSINESS (like Nostalgia-Orient)? Both are fine, but require a different approach for each kind of service. Hungarian rail has even a special unit ("Utasellato") for sleeping car service ($10-$30/bed), dining car service ($3-$10 for dinner), nostalgia-service ($$$$$ ooooouch!!!) or nostalgia sleeper (forged-aboud-it-unless-lottery-winner). Each activity has different people involved. Most of us and most of you will use the first two, but some of you may think to arrange a wedding party on the Utasellato's train, gypsy musicians included and guests put in 1930-s sleepers. In the train I was today Amtrak tried both approaches at the same time but neither was success from revenue point of view (180 guests) and the entire execution (tickets overpriced, coupons, not-coupons, confuusion, train late) was below what it should be. Even worse, our "loved" UP was responsible for the small part of the delay. I mean, if the engineer would not literally walk away from the train... (and it was not the first time I experienced it!)

Anyway, it's late now, let's see how my trip back on Nov 10 will be and how much is the upgrade on board...if they let me do it at all.
 
Guest_Gyuri_FT said:
After Dunsmuir the things did slow down due a minor issue with the track, but after a few hours - to my surprize - the engineers decided they are over 14 hours in the shift, so they just stopped in the middle of nowhere and we arrived at Klamath Falls ca. 7 or 8 hours late - as we were told with a new engineer crew. I know about the 14 hour rule, but I wonder, why we did stay extra 4 or so hours rather than drive the remaining 20 into Klamath Falls. Besides, if the things are so difficult and delays are expected, an extra engine crew (just in case) in the crew-sleeper would be useful.
Actually, it's 12 hours, not 14 hours. The applicable federal regulation prohibits operating crew from working more than 12 hours and 0 minutes. Even if you're only 20 minutes from the crew change point, as soon as the crew hits 12 hours, they are required to stop. The railroad can be assessed hefty fines if they break that rule (except in certain emergency circumstances, such as a severe blizzard where it would be more hazardous to send a new crew out there than to have the existing crew finish the run).

Additionally, the "extra crew" couldn't just sleep in the crew dorm. Rest only counts if it's stationary, and either at home or in a proper hotel.
 
Has this thread been discussed enough?

I will wait for "Amtrak the Evil Empire" conspiracy theory film to come out.....featuring "coupons not coming to an Amtrak station near you".

Enough already.
 
haolerider said:
Has this thread been discussed enough?
I will wait for "Amtrak the Evil Empire" conspiracy theory film to come out.....featuring "coupons not coming to an Amtrak station near you".

Enough already.
1) It's not done, the half of it will continue Thursday.

2) I fail to see any conspiration theory. There is a debate about are coupons ethical or not, what is the best to use public money: should be a vintage car repaired or several new "boring" card bought and so on. There is no Area 51, no Evil Secret Service, etc. Amtrak is not evil by any means and not even close. What I see is completely screwed up marketing, unclear goals ("service" or "business" - orientied?) and questionable business ethics. My sleeping car attendant was even more passionate about these things than I. UP is not evil either, but questionable ethics, screwed up marketing and et-cetera does probably apply for a magnitude more than to Amtrak.

3) It was asked to keep the dicussion on the professional level, please.
 
rmadisonwi said:
Actually, it's 12 hours, not 14 hours. The applicable federal regulation prohibits operating crew from working more than 12 hours and 0 minutes. Even if you're only 20 minutes from the crew change point, as soon as the crew hits 12 hours, they are required to stop. The railroad can be assessed hefty fines if they break that rule (except in certain emergency circumstances, such as a severe blizzard where it would be more hazardous to send a new crew out there than to have the existing crew finish the run).
Additionally, the "extra crew" couldn't just sleep in the crew dorm. Rest only counts if it's stationary, and either at home or in a proper hotel.
What would be the solution than? Obviously the current regulation is responsible for a significant number of delays. The number of train accidents in certain countries is next to nil (most of North Europe, Iran), in certain countries does exist but can be neglected due extremely high traffic (Germany, Russia, China, France), and certain countries are notorioius (India). Given the relatively low accident rate, extremely high traffic and great distances between stations, the Asian part of Russia coul be an interesting study. There is obviously a solution, perhaps several good solutions. I cannot chase away my thougts that since what we have here is not working well, some ideas from similar countries should be adopted where it works better.
 
Guest_Gyuri_FT said:
haolerider said:
Has this thread been discussed enough?
I will wait for "Amtrak the Evil Empire"  conspiracy theory film to come out.....featuring "coupons not coming to an Amtrak station near you".

Enough already.
3) It was asked to keep the dicussion on the professional level, please.
And I will once again repeat my earlier request. Please keep things civil and refrain from personal attacks.

This is a free and open forum and a free and open discussion. One that I, along with it would seem many other members are enjoying. Gyuri is certainly entitled to his thoughts, opinions, and ideas. I for one do respect much of what he's said. I'm not saying that I agree with everything he's said, but there is some merit in many of the points/questions he's raised.

Sadly we have no direct pipeline to Amtrak and it's management, and that may actually be a good thing, so they may never know about this discussion. But that does not change the fact that this is a forum about Amtrak in all its glory, trials, and tribulations. We are here to discuss Amtrak good or bad and our love or hatred of it.
 
Guest_Gyuri_FT said:
rmadisonwi said:
Actually, it's 12 hours, not 14 hours.  The applicable federal regulation prohibits operating crew from working more than 12 hours and 0 minutes.  Even if you're only 20 minutes from the crew change point, as soon as the crew hits 12 hours, they are required to stop.  The railroad can be assessed hefty fines if they break that rule (except in certain emergency circumstances, such as a severe blizzard where it would be more hazardous to send a new crew out there than to have the existing crew finish the run).
Additionally, the "extra crew" couldn't just sleep in the crew dorm.  Rest only counts if it's stationary, and either at home or in a proper hotel.
What would be the solution than? Obviously the current regulation is responsible for a significant number of delays. The number of train accidents in certain countries is next to nil (most of North Europe, Iran), in certain countries does exist but can be neglected due extremely high traffic (Germany, Russia, China, France), and certain countries are notorioius (India). Given the relatively low accident rate, extremely high traffic and great distances between stations, the Asian part of Russia coul be an interesting study. There is obviously a solution, perhaps several good solutions. I cannot chase away my thougts that since what we have here is not working well, some ideas from similar countries should be adopted where it works better.
That's a tough question to answer in some sense. However, in our litigous society here in the US, you will never see the FRA relax that 12 hour rule.

Quite honestly the correct answer probably is to get Congress to put some real teeth into the penalties paid by freigh RR's for delaying Amtrak for anything but derailments, power failures, and other major issues like that. Simply parking Amtrak to let a freight train go by, should be prevented.

On the other hand, that will probably be pretty tough to get that out of Congress, since technically one is now ordering a private company to do something. It may not even be totally legal to do so. This is one are that has been debated quite a bit in the past on many forums, including here.

I suppose if we could get around the mentality that says Amtrak must make a profit and fund it better, then Amtrak could properly pay the freight RR's for the use of their tracks. Right now Amtrak pays a small amount compared to the extra expense the freight RR's must incur to run Amtrak at higher speeds.

I suppose that if Congress was too afraid of giving the money to Amtrak, they could also set something up to have the DOT pay the money direct to the freight RR's. If the freight RR's were getting fair market value for Amtrak using their track, they might be more inclined not to put their freights ahead of Amtrak. Certainly such a program that did pay more to them, should have a condition that reduces substantially that fair market payment for putting any Amtrak trains in the hole.

But I rather doubt that the politicians will ever do that, since it won't buy them any votes. :(
 
All I can say, is I think I am gonna stay out of this one! It is a really sizzling subject obviously, and seems to be a bit petty in my own personal opinion! I have plenty of other things to worry about, myself. OBS... :lol:
 
rmadisonwi said:
Actually, it's 12 hours, not 14 hours.  The applicable federal regulation prohibits operating crew from working more than 12 hours and 0 minutes.
Aloha

Limits on on duty time is very smart.

I have two questions.

1) how is the 12 hour day paid, ie 8 straight 4 ot.

2) why not schedule 10 hours to crew change.

3) (oh well) what is the reasoning resting off duty on the train, truck drivers do it all the time.
 
I guess I'll chime in with my .02 cents worth...

As a travel agent of 8 years, a current hotel front desk clerk, and a frequent Amtrak traveller I find it strange practice to allow those guests who had stumbled across a coupon to get a better deal for the same ticket/room/cruise than those unfortunate enough not to have it. A room at our hotel can cost 78$, but if you have the coupon...45$. Save $200 on a cruise if you have the coupon, if you dont, tough. If I need a last minute ticket for an unforseen journey, I should not have to pay more for this. If I am not knowledgable in the internet and have to call Amtrak, I should not have to pay double or triple the cost because I cant access the Hot Deals section of their webpage.

I also understand trying to market to a particular geographic region or age group if that demographic ridership/sales are low, but should the rest of the population not also get the some kind of deal or something similar? If you are trying to entice those that you are direct marketing at to use your product, it would seem to me unfair that you let the rest of the market knowingly pay full price.

In an economy where only a few dollars will sway a consumers decision, it seems to be in the best interest of those selling the product to assist the consumer in every way to get the best deal for their dollar, not try and rip them off or hide a better deal or coupon. If the cost of a train ticket is less than that an airplane or bus ticket using a promotion that a client may not qualify for, then it would be in the best interest of that company to do what they can to get the business.

Otherwise, they (the consumer) will go away, and may not come back.
 
I agree with dmwnc1959 - if you decide to have discounts, then make sure everybody who qualifies can use them, or limit it to # of pax per day per train like railsale/weekly specials, but publicize those limits as well. That way all pax (passengers) are fairly dealt with, FEEL that they are fairly dealt with, and that it's a level playing field.

On the issue of freight RRs and delays, why not look nationally at the system and on the route segments that have the worst delays, have a carrot-and-stick approach: Offer tax subsidies or matching grants to the freight RRs on those segments to add additional trackage, from single to double or double to triple, or whatever seemed appropriate, possibly with the fed or state gov't taking title to the additional land where necessary, but allowing the RR in perpetuity to use it as if it were theirs so long as they meet whatever the feds give as requirements including expediting pax trains There is currently a movement in Congress to outlaw the eminent domain taking of privately owned land for transfer to another private, non-gov't entity for that entity to develop or use. This is because of the earlier Supreme Court ruling that allowed it, and personally I think it's appropriate legislation. If that actually goes through, though, any such action (taking land by eminent domain to expand from single to double track, etc.) would hinder or prohibit the government from doing that if they were going to then convey that land to the freight RRs, although Congress could also make that specific authority as well if they so chose. But theoritically the feds could simply keep title and still have the additional trackage built. On segments that RRs like UP are currently hopelessly clogged with freight and can't come close to even handling their own customers' freight adequately or timely, they should jump at the chance to fix their own business with fed help, and would be much more willing to agree to expedite handling of pax trains, especially if the feds, as part of the "stick" would threaten to exclude the freight RRs from using the new trackage for freight if they didn't expedite the pax trains.

Anyway, there are lots of things that COULD be done to fix all this. It's just a question of whether the political will to do it exists, or whether we as voters can make enough noise to force the issue.
 
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