Amtrak secret coupon smorgasbord - is it ethical?

[Amtrak Watcher]

Though passionate at times, this is an interesting discussion. I’ve lived in the USA long enough to construct my own model for its economy and the opportunities it brings. There are two sides to an American’s life: you are a “citizen” and you are a “consumer.”

There’s plenty of room for considering ethics and fare play in our lives as “citizens” (neighbors, votors, etc.), but, beyond matters of public safety, I see no place for such within our lives as “consumers.” I use MBNA’s “Amtrak credit card, I follow the rules, however arbitrary they may seem, for Amtrak’s SELECT PLUS program, and I’ll jump through whatever hoops are required for whatever coupons come to my attention and suit my needs. I merely hope the trains are safe, clean, and on time. I rather like the wide variety of opportunities: coupons, promotions, prices and schemes. But I also understand that our “consumer” lives are filled with as many over-priced and useless products as there are good deals. It’s up to the “consumer” in us to find our ways and to never forget that someone is always trying to find a way to separate us from our money.

 

[Guest_Gyuri_FT]

At first, Amtrak should eliminate this 12-hour insanity. I am on an event organized by Intel in Hillsboro, OR and the room is full of not-so-stupid people from around the world from all possible countries you can imagine. After telling them the story, Amtrak was subject of a loud broo-ha-ha and jokes. Maybe I should NOT tell the story, but it's hard to resist. And if everyone regardless of cultural background agrees, certain things are just plain nuts, than perhaps they indeed are.

There should be a simple solution to that. For instance, double the number of places where engineers can be changed. Or just statistically look, what is the most critical section. As we know, Klamath Falls - Sacramento is. So hire engineers and put optional engineer change places at Redding and Sacramento. Money can be allocated by NOT restoring a few more historical cars. I mean, the wine tating in Pacific Parlor is great, but arriving 2 hours late in Portland (due UP) instead of 9 hours (due 12-hour regulation) is better. Besides, it saves money, too by eliminating busses transfering passengers from Klamath Falls to Empire Builder.

At second, the same folks (plus Angela who is well over 20 years with Amtrak) did fully agree that the coupon-things are also nuts. So it maybe not a lone idea either and it's worth considering to greatly simplify the fare structure.

At third, Russian Railway newly using a similar approach (fluctuating prices depending on season and availability). I guess, there are some clever businessman who are there but got their MBA here. The outcry is big, no one is happy and who can are cheating the system by buying international third-city tickets where the rule does not apply. So we have an other country which is switching to a system and the process is not going well.

At fourth, the entire system is a big question for me. The train was not even at its half capacity, but Amtrak was trying to sell tickets for $130 in the last minute and the roomettes for $245 (more than half still empty). I did check now the train for tomorrow - and now the ticket price is $112 with roomette being $206. In other words: no one is going. I was lucky to get a roomette for $168 for the trip to Oregon, but have nothing for return. If Amtrak would price it at $100 - $140 I won't even think twice. At $206 I say, "let's try conductor, the train must be empty". Obvious is the loss of money.

In other words: it is a good idea to write politicians, but there are obviously many things Amtrak can fix relatively quickly on its own, regardless of UP, Congress, GWB, Mineta. Eliminating huge delays due 12-hour rule and be more realistic regarding the price is one of such things. I did see a statistics - and guess, which passenger railroad has the most expensive fare structure in the world. If it would be a "pleasure train" - fine with me, charge as much as you can. If it is a service, than it's insane.

How expensive the 12-hour rule is here is the proof. Amtrak agent told me, if the delay is extreme (I do not remember, did she mention 6 hour or 3 hour delay), Amtrak will give money back on the whole ticket. This is, however, never mentioned on the ticket either! In other words, Amtrak still has a money-back policy, but it is well-hidden unless you ask. I did not ask, but the agent somehow told me over the phone. Now a quick question for all of you. I consider myself an old fox. I was born in Moscow, but raised in Budapest, Hungary. This is important because it's a S.F. <---> Denver distance. With relatives in both places I used to ride the train through 20 years(!) at least two round-trips yearly. After and during the colledge I did ride on tracks of good portion of Europe and Asia (China). Since I am in the US (1992) and even before I did patronize Amtrak as much as possible. Obviously a few things went wrong once in a while on these trains. So a 9 hour delay with broken toilets is a "no biggie" for me, by far not the worst. The train attendant was nice, I liked the food and the wine tasting was terrific. Besides, due delay I got an extra dinner.

So the $222 question: would you call Amtrak and complain about the delay and broken toilets in "Missouri" + "Kansas" cars and ask for $222 back or not?!?

 

[AlanB]

Actually, it's 12 hours, not 14 hours.  The applicable federal regulation prohibits operating crew from working more than 12 hours and 0 minutes.

Aloha

Limits on on duty time is very smart.

I have two questions.

1) how is the 12 hour day paid, ie 8 straight 4 ot.

2) why not schedule 10 hours to crew change.

3) (oh well) what is the reasoning resting off duty on the train, truck drivers do it all the time.

I can't answer questions 1 or 3 for you, but I suspect that other may be able to do so.

However the answer to question #2 is that Amtrak never schedules a crew for a 12 hour run. They know that probably 90% of the time they won't be on time, so the crew would outlaw.

I believe that Amtrak typicallly tries to schedule a crew for a run that should take no more than 8 hours to cover. This leaves a margin for error of 4 hours for delays. So when a crew dies on the law, you know that there were big delays.

 

[WICT106]

At first, Amtrak should eliminate this 12-hour insanity. I am on an event organized by Intel in Hillsboro, OR and the room is full of not-so-stupid people from around the world from all possible countries you can imagine. After telling them the story, Amtrak was subject of a loud broo-ha-ha and jokes. Maybe I should NOT tell the story, but it's hard to resist. And if everyone regardless of cultural background agrees, certain things are just plain nuts, than perhaps they indeed are.
There should be a simple solution to that. For instance, double the number of places where engineers can be changed. Or just statistically look, what is the most critical section. As we know, Klamath Falls - Sacramento is. So hire engineers and put optional engineer change places at Redding and Sacramento. Money can be allocated by NOT restoring a few more historical cars. I mean, the wine tating in Pacific Parlor is great, but arriving 2 hours late in Portland (due UP) instead of 9 hours (due 12-hour regulation) is better. Besides, it saves money, too by eliminating busses transfering passengers from Klamath Falls to Empire Builder.

At second, the same folks (plus Angela who is well over 20 years with Amtrak) did fully agree that the coupon-things are also nuts. So it maybe not a lone idea either and it's worth considering to greatly simplify the fare structure.

At third, Russian Railway newly using a similar approach (fluctuating prices depending on season and availability). I guess, there are some clever businessman who are there but got their MBA here. The outcry is big, no one is happy and who can are cheating the system by buying international third-city tickets where the rule does not apply. So we have an other country which is switching to a system and the process is not going well.

At fourth, the entire system is a big question for me. The train was not even at its half capacity, but Amtrak was trying to sell tickets for $130 in the last minute and the roomettes for $245 (more than half still empty). I did check now the train for tomorrow - and now the ticket price is $112 with roomette being $206. In other words: no one is going. I was lucky to get a roomette for $168 for the trip to Oregon, but have nothing for return. If Amtrak would price it at $100 - $140 I won't even think twice. At $206 I say, "let's try conductor, the train must be empty". Obvious is the loss of money.

In other words: it is a good idea to write politicians, but there are obviously many things Amtrak can fix relatively quickly on its own, regardless of UP, Congress, GWB, Mineta. Eliminating huge delays due 12-hour rule and be more realistic regarding the price is one of such things. I did see a statistics - and guess, which passenger railroad has the most expensive fare structure in the world. If it would be a "pleasure train" - fine with me, charge as much as you can. If it is a service, than it's insane.

How expensive the 12-hour rule is here is the proof. Amtrak agent told me, if the delay is extreme (I do not remember, did she mention 6 hour or 3 hour delay), Amtrak will give money back on the whole ticket. This is, however, never mentioned on the ticket either! In other words, Amtrak still has a money-back policy, but it is well-hidden unless you ask. I did not ask, but the agent somehow told me over the phone. Now a quick question for all of you. I consider myself an old fox. I was born in Moscow, but raised in Budapest, Hungary. This is important because it's a S.F. <---> Denver distance. With relatives in both places I used to ride the train through 20 years(!) at least two round-trips yearly. After and during the colledge I did ride on tracks of good portion of Europe and Asia (China). Since I am in the US (1992) and even before I did patronize Amtrak as much as possible. Obviously a few things went wrong once in a while on these trains. So a 9 hour delay with broken toilets is a "no biggie" for me, by far not the worst. The train attendant was nice, I liked the food and the wine tasting was terrific. Besides, due delay I got an extra dinner.

So the $222 question: would you call Amtrak and complain about the delay and broken toilets in "Missouri" + "Kansas" cars and ask for $222 back or not?!?

The 12 hour rule is a FEDERAL regulation. It also applies in one form or another to the trucking and airline industries as well. Amtrak can do little if anything to get it repealed. Have you ever been at work for 12 hours straight? Remember what you felt like at the end of the day? Its the same for the train engineers. 12 hours and the want their 12 hours off - they're tired! Anything less than 12 hours, such as 11:59, gets you entitled to only 8 hours off the clock!

If you have ever taken a long drive (I mean 10-12 hours in the car, traveling), you'd see why this rule is important. The crews need their rest. Only someone who has never driven 12 hours (which I strongly suspect includes many of the folks at this "meeting" in Hinkle, OR) would make jokes which demonstrate no understanding of the issues which affect Amtrak.

Did any of them demonstrate any knowledge that the tracks over which Amtrak operates in OR are owned by the Union Pacific? That Amtrak only "rents" time on the tracks from UP? That many of Our Elected Representatives have voted not to buy additional tracks becuase it doesn't affect enough voters? Did any of these jokers demonstrate knowledge that a train route is more like a bus route, with as much if not more traffic on the intermediate stops as on the ends of the routes? No?

I thought not :angry:

 

[Guest_Gyuri_FT]

The 12 hour rule is a FEDERAL regulation. It also applies in one form or another to the trucking and airline industries as well. Amtrak can do little if anything to get it repealed. Have you ever been at work for 12 hours straight? Remember what you felt like at the end of the day? Its the same for the train engineers. 12 hours and the want their 12 hours off - they're tired! Anything less than 12 hours, such as 11:59, gets you entitled to only 8 hours off the clock!
If you have ever taken a long drive (I mean 10-12 hours in the car, traveling), you'd see why this rule is important. The crews need their rest. Only someone who has never driven 12 hours (which I strongly suspect includes many of the folks at this "meeting" in Hinkle, OR) would make jokes which demonstrate no understanding of the issues which affect Amtrak.

Did any of them demonstrate any knowledge that the tracks over which Amtrak operates in OR are owned by the Union Pacific? That Amtrak only "rents" time on the tracks from UP? That many of Our Elected Representatives have voted not to buy additional tracks becuase it doesn't affect enough voters? Did any of these jokers demonstrate knowledge that a train route is more like a bus route, with as much if not more traffic on the intermediate stops as on the ends of the routes? No?

To extend the work of an engineer beyond 12 hors would be dangerous. As I wrote earlier (repeating myself without few typos I did find:

"For instance, double the number of places where engineers can be changed. Or just statistically look, what is the most critical section. As we know, Klamath Falls - Sacramento is. So hire engineers and put optional engineer change places at Redding and Sacramento. Money can be allocated by NOT restoring a few more historical cars. I mean, the wine taSting in Pacific Parlor is great, but arriving 2 hours late in Portland (due UP) instead of 9 hours (due 12-hour regulation) is better. Besides, it saves money, too by eliminating busses transfering passengers from Klamath Falls to Empire Builder"

This is IMHO perfectly feasable both technically and financially - and would more than satisfy the fed regulations.

Regarding your second question, no, of course it was no time to explain all the "niceties" of the track ownership situation during a short break. But it does not have much to do with the current delay. We had 2-3 hours delay at worst due UP fixing the track before us and over 5 hours delay due engineer shortage plus broken toilets (I did not tell that part of the story). But we had great wine - a very fine Reisling, imported from Germany - in a restored ElCapitan car. I would not complain, but calling this "bizarre" is probably right. Just imagine, letting a private company restore that ElCapitan car for private use (big chunk of money saved) and SELLING the Riesling in dining car insteat of giving it away (small money earned) can easily pay a few extra engineers in Redding and Sacramento. This is what I mean, "public train" versus "tourist train". It's just an idea assuming, most of the passengers are in hurry somewhere and not going by train just because they think, this is the way and enjoying even a delay.

So far it was only one delay we did not enjoy or made jokes about. I am by far not the most experienced pax here, but like everyone who has over 6-digit mileage in his life, we got once (it happened in former USSR) someone who was tired of his life and acted on tracks accordingly. I do not know how is it here, but I was told over there the crew, esp. the engineer usually gets a few days off after such events.

 

[AlanB]

"For instance, double the number of places where engineers can be changed. Or just statistically look, what is the most critical section. As we know, Klamath Falls - Sacramento is. So hire engineers and put optional engineer change places at Redding and Sacramento. Money can be allocated by NOT restoring a few more historical cars. I mean, the wine taSting in Pacific Parlor is great, but arriving 2 hours late in Portland (due UP) instead of 9 hours (due 12-hour regulation) is better. Besides, it saves money, too by eliminating busses transfering passengers from Klamath Falls to Empire Builder"
This is IMHO perfectly feasable both technically and financially - and would more than satisfy the fed regulations.

Gyuri,

I hear what you are saying, but you are I'm afraid overlooking a few things in your analysis here.

1) It's not just the engineer who can outlaw. Both the conductor and the assistant conductor are governed by the same 12 hour rule. So you would need to replace 3 people, not 1. That dramtically increases the costs of keeping people on standby. And if anyone of those three people hits his limits, the train must stop according to FRA rules.

Failure to stop could result in major fines and the loss of the crew's license to work on trains.

2) Even if you did have an entire extra crew in place to deal with a delay situation, who's to say that the train the day before didn't have the same problem. Or perhaps the southbound had a problem. Now that crew has been used and cannot work for the train in question, since they haven't had enough rest. Do you now keep 2 or 3 complete sets of crews on standby?

3) To answer my question above, No. You can't. The payroll costs of keeping multiple people on standby, on the off chance that you need them is too high. People can't just sit at home, hoping that two or three times a week the train will be late and they therefore get called to work. They need to pay their bills too.

So either you pay them not to work, when there is no work becuase the train is on time, or you can't get anyone to sit on standby in the hope that they will get work.

4) The costs of scheduling crews for say a 6 hour run, before changing are just way too high. With Congress, the White House, and others breathing down Amtrak's neck to cut the subsidy, there is no way that Amtrak can justify the added costs of crewing in that fashion.

5) Those El-Capitan cars were refurbed so long ago, at a cost that would come no where near the costs neaded to crew in the fashion that you sugget. There are only 6 of those cars. Your proposal would require expendatures that would equal what Amtrak spent fixing those cars up in one year. Amtrak has been running those cars for that initial expense for well over 10 year at least.

6) The cost of the wine you and your fellow passengers were served wouldn't even pay for one extra engineer, much less the conductor and the assistant conductor.

Do I wish that Amtrak could shorten the runs of the crew? Sure. Do I wish that the freight RR's would keep Amtrak on time, so that crews don't outlaw? Sure. But in today's world of profits first, sadly it's not going to happen.

 

[Trogdor]

One additional point to add to Alan's comments:

Since crews are "scheduled" to have a run that doesn't exceed their hours of service, a crew outlawing isn't a planned event. Since it's not a planned event, not only do you not know when it's going to happen, but you also don't know *where* it's going to happen.

Stationing an extra crew may sound logical, but where do you put them? If it's in the middle of the route between two crew-change points, that's eight hours of travel time (so, theoretically, up to four hours each way). If some unforeseen event occurs that delays the train for a couple of hours, it may still be a couple of hours before the relief crew can get in position to even get on the train.

Sometimes, nobody knows how long a delay is going to last. If you're waiting for another freight train, the dispatcher might be able to estimate when that train will clear. If the train ahead of you has its crew outlawed (yes, it happens to freight trains too...*all the time*), it can be a bit tougher to gauge when its new crew will arrive. If you're stopped because either your train, or the train in your way, has a defect, then there's no way at all to tell how long it will be before things get going again. If you call the relief crew out "just in case," then you could very well be ready to leave before they get there.

It ain't a pretty situation, but there's no easy answer.

 

[Guest_Gyuri_FT]

I see what you are saying, Alan. Of course the cost of drinks is nothing, just many small beans add to a large sum, I was beancounting. I would love to see first a no-nonsense functioning rail transportation with an acceptable basic service. A SouthWest or JetBlue-like thing, but on the rails and simple railfare structure. Looking at the mileage, the $41 minimal fare between SJC and LAX as well as $72 minimal fare between SJC and PDX are dead-on. These fares should be always stay. Add $20/pax for a bed in a roomette (would make $40 for two). If a clean and nice hotel close to MaxRail in Hillsboro charges $45 for a night and it includes breakfast and some basic transportation (shuttle) around, $40 with a cup of coffee/tea in the morning (no breakfast) for a much more basic room on the train are just OK. Interestingly, most rail service in the world charges roughly that amount.

Including the food service in the ticket price makes things very complicated. I can imagine an OPTIONAL voucher sold or given to the ticket for x number of meals. Say, an average diner meal is $15-$17, let's sell the diner voucher for $11.86/pax or $29.78/family (two adults, kids eat free). I can even imagine a print on the voucher "gratuites included" and sell it for $14.83/pax and $34.73/family. This would reduce the cash "flow" in the diner to a minimum. The lunch voucher would go for $6.81 or $16.47 for the family. Why so odd numbers? Because everyone and their dog are tired of prices like $6.99 or $99.99. Just curious, how many people do calculate the difference between $14.83, $14.99 and $15.00? And while $14.99 is an old joke, $14.83 is a new kid on the block.

My 19.83 Cents. :blink:

 

[Guest_Gyuri_FT]

One additional point to add to Alan's comments:
Since crews are "scheduled" to have a run that doesn't exceed their hours of service, a crew outlawing isn't a planned event. Since it's not a planned event, not only do you not know when it's going to happen, but you also don't know *where* it's going to happen.

Stationing an extra crew may sound logical, but where do you put them? If it's in the middle of the route between two crew-change points, that's eight hours of travel time (so, theoretically, up to four hours each way). If some unforeseen event occurs that delays the train for a couple of hours, it may still be a couple of hours before the relief crew can get in position to even get on the train.

Sometimes, nobody knows how long a delay is going to last. If you're waiting for another freight train, the dispatcher might be able to estimate when that train will clear. If the train ahead of you has its crew outlawed (yes, it happens to freight trains too...*all the time*), it can be a bit tougher to gauge when its new crew will arrive. If you're stopped because either your train, or the train in your way, has a defect, then there's no way at all to tell how long it will be before things get going again. If you call the relief crew out "just in case," then you could very well be ready to leave before they get there.

It ain't a pretty situation, but there's no easy answer.

Robert,

Despite of my "mileage" (sorry: "kilometrage") I have no idea, how this issue is addressed abreoad. Since the train crew and the entire rail "enterprise" is pretty much half-military (OK, if not military than comparable to firefighters or park rangers in the US) in entire Europe and of course, in China or Russia, I cannot imagine there is no similar rule there. The fact that there are so few incidents but so many trains supports this. I just never ever had a situation like that overseas, but already twice in the U.S. So I have no idea, how they organize. I wish, Amtrak would study this in earnest and send a team of specialists overseas to learn what can be useful here. I am sure there is a gazillion ideas they can recycle - and don't be shy. The no-nonsense bed-cars (I intentionally do not call them "sleeper") which look like traditional American streamliners, can sleep up to 54 people and are so common would be one such thing... And no-nonsense 36-bed or 16-bed sleepera aren't shabby either. I know, there are regulations and what-not, but Talgo thank God is here in service.

 

[Trogdor]

What you're asking for could easily be done here.

It only requires money. Lots of it.

European nations have poured lots of money into their respective rail systems. We haven't. The results shouldn't be surprising.

 

[Guest]

What you're asking for could easily be done here.
It only requires money. Lots of it.

European nations have poured lots of money into their respective rail systems. We haven't. The results shouldn't be surprising.

Not necessary. The tracks are owned by late S.P. (now U.P.) in one case, and by some sort of goverment agency in an other case, often not related to the passenger traffic subsiary. The passenger traffic is in limbo always. But I strongly believe, U.S. is a champion in money-wasting if it comes to everything what goverment does touch. Organizatory skills are also (let's say with eufemism) "in short supply". Not that I would do it better, but why not give a try looking abroad? It's cannot be worse. I do not know most answer on technical questions like what they do if there is a massive delay of 5 hours in the middle of nowhere and the engineers are alrady behind an 8-hour shift? I don't know, but I suspect, here we have in goverment too much discussion and too little action.

In the menatime a few exotic photos (VietNam):

http://www.vr.com.vn/Cacdonvi/Congnghiep/D...engoimemDH.html or

http://www.vr.com.vn/Cacdonvi/Congnghiep/H...goi2tangDH.html

or sleeping cars like these (on 1 meter gauge!):

http://www.vr.com.vn/Cacdonvi/Congnghiep/D...enguDH(Bn).html or

http://www.vr.com.vn/Cacdonvi/Congnghiep/D...enguDH(An).html

Also you can see different interior pics. Notice the 3-row beds in a very typical 54-sleeper car, so popular in both Europe and Asia. Luxury? No way. But much better than the couch and even in Germany costs only a change.

http://www.seat61.com/Vietnam.htm

You can "visit" almost every country in the world by clicking on the left.

Very remarkable and if political situation will one day allow, one of the top on my list:

http://www.seat61.com/Syria.htm

 

[Trogdor]

It doesn't matter who owns the tracks, it's still going to take lots of money to fix things up.

Whether it would "only" be $10.5 billion if a private company did it, or $11 billion if the government did it, a lot of money is still a lot of money.

 

[Guest_Gyuri_FT]

I am back from the trip. The trip back was (almost) without events.

1) Finally I got the anawer on both questions. The conductor on the train #11 was pretty friendly chap. He told me, as long as the number of people is not more than what he is allowed to accomodate and one person has the sleeper ticket, the rest sleeps free, regardless what kind of tickets they have. However, as I suspected, this is not a free license to just occupy the compartment at will, he has to do the paperwork, even if it does not involve any monetary transaction.

2) While the upgrade on board is not a super-duper bargain anymore, I paid $129 for my room on board. The same time Amtrak was tryng to sell me the room for $245. What i did not like, was that the agent in Portland was pretty pushy and tried to convince me, there are only few rooms left. Of course, a good number of the rooms was still empty, but it was no "free car" as on my onward trip.

3) The train was a little (2 hours) late only, which I consider in the case of Starlight "on time". The attendant on ElCapitan car told me that David Gunn is no more a president and I did not believe him at first until he did not show me the newspapaer. I have no idea what can I do, as a citizen (since good 5 years) I certainly will exercise my right. Any thougt is appreciated. I am actually in the Bay Area, which shows minimal if any sympathy for son of the bush and is a pro-public transportation, so these days I guess the Congress is quite used to some angry messages. Above all Amtrak needs a sound leadership and Crawford, TX is missing the village's idiot. :angry:

 

[dmwnc1959]

It doesn't matter who owns the tracks, it's still going to take lots of money to fix things up.
Whether it would "only" be $10.5 billion if a private company did it, or $11 billion if the government did it, a lot of money is still a lot of money.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

It still blows me away that the government is dumping TENS of BILLIONS of dollars into the struggling and near bankrupt airlines, and BILLIONS upon BILLIONS upon BILLLLLLLIONS into the defense and rebuilding of Afghanistan and Irag, and then struggle over funding for AMTRAK, usually only at the 11th-hour approving some bill or another.

 

[Ben]

I'm thinking about taking Amtrak this December from the Bay Area to LA with a buddy and tried to use the free companion fare code on Amtrak's website to see what the price was but it wouldn't give me the 2nd person free. Is there something I'm doing wrong? Are there any other discounts that anybody knows that I could use to save money. Can anybody tell me all the California discounts for that time. Help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot.

 

[haolerider]

That is the problem with using a list of coupon numbers. You don't have the details on valid dates, locations, trains, etc. That coupon may be expired or blackedout during the time you want to travel.

 

[racer1735]

When you purchase the coupon, it should state exactly what trains the coupon is valid for, as well as any blackout dates.

 

[haolerider]

They do include all that infomation, but this person is trying to use a dscount code number that has been published in a list on this site and on other sites- without the coupon in hand to get these details.

If they are trying to travel in December I am sure it is during the holidays and almost all coupons are blacked-out from Dec 16- Dec 31 and Jan 1 & 2.