Amtrak Cascades Service discussion

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Metra Electric Rider said:
My understanding is a lot of the Puget Sound Basin (if that's a correct geological/geographic term) is prone to slides (see below) due to volcanic and glacial soils and high water saturation, however, locating tracks right on the beach below a bluff was not a great idea geologically (kind of like the Illinois Central's original beach right of way - now inland thanks to extensive landfill) - it's like locating in the median of highways (in Chicago, the salt on the roadway negatively affects the CTA routes there, plus unattractive stations).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Oso_mudslide
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The slide "10 miles north of Vancouver" (i.e. Ridgefield) isn't related to Puget Sound. Railroaders refer to the Napavine Hill as the dividing line. South of there, water works its way out of the mountains into the Columbia River in the area described in the 1917 news story above. Some of it is in the Lewis River and some of it is in the saturated soil, leading to landslides.

https://www.oregonlive.com/weather/...etween-portland-seattle-due-to-landslide.html
This time the highway stayed open. In other Decembers, the rail line has stayed open, and the highway has been closed by slides.

The Columbia and Puget Sound share slide problems as described above, but not the same water.
 
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The second slide brings up a question. BNSF has the 48 hour passenger train cancellation. If Amtrak had been operating how close to a train would the second slide have occurred?
 
moosejunky99 said:
I will be on this train for my first time from SEA to PDX and back Memorial day week. Hope the weather holds and i can ride it during that time. Is there a snack car and if I'm riding on business. Do i get anything extra special?
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You’ll get a slightly nicer seat pitch and material (with leg rest) and a $3 coupon for the cafe. On most trains the cafe is the same car as the business seats, but on some of the newer trains it’s in a different car.
 
I'm not surprised that Amtrak is posting lower than the buses on a few runs - they just bumped capacity by 50%. I'm having to work off of a 2016 timetable (though I don't think they messed about much with the timecards in the last few years), but I believe the "new" trains are the 0645 and an additional one in the evening. The 0820 was barely moved, two midday trains were moved earlier (1200->1040 and 1450->1410), and now there are two evening trains (1755 and 1925) instead of one (1850).

There's probably also been some mildly chaotic shuffling of passengers between trains...some numbers got changed around significantly:
-501 and 510 are no longer on the timetable, probably not least because of the "Is this the train to Vancouver?" problem.
-Weekday/weekend numbering went away (500/502 were the morning weekday/weekend pair out of PDX, but they're now both daily numbers for 0645 and 0820).
-"Old" 516 is now numbered 518 (the "new" 516 was formerly 510). I'd love to know how badly the system fell down on handling that with restricted-change tickets.
-506 was the weekend counterpart to 504; 504 went earlier while 506 landed in the early evening.
-And 508 is basically where it always was, just pushed back a little.
 
Anderson said:
I'm not surprised that Amtrak is posting lower than the buses on a few runs - they just bumped capacity by 50%. I'm having to work off of a 2016 timetable (though I don't think they messed about much with the timecards in the last few years), but I believe the "new" trains are the 0645 and an additional one in the evening. The 0820 was barely moved, two midday trains were moved earlier (1200->1040 and 1450->1410), and now there are two evening trains (1755 and 1925) instead of one (1850).

There's probably also been some mildly chaotic shuffling of passengers between trains...some numbers got changed around significantly:
-501 and 510 are no longer on the timetable, probably not least because of the "Is this the train to Vancouver?" problem.
-Weekday/weekend numbering went away (500/502 were the morning weekday/weekend pair out of PDX, but they're now both daily numbers for 0645 and 0820).
-"Old" 516 is now numbered 518 (the "new" 516 was formerly 510). I'd love to know how badly the system fell down on handling that with restricted-change tickets.
-506 was the weekend counterpart to 504; 504 went earlier while 506 landed in the early evening.
-And 508 is basically where it always was, just pushed back a little.
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Here's the 2017 schedule that was in effect for the Nisqually crash. It looks like the new schedule is based on that one.
 

Attachments

  • 2017 Cascades Dec 18 new schedule.pdf
    169.9 KB · Views: 0
It looks like there’s still strong demand on the corridor despite the additions. Tomorrow 11, 507, 517, are sold out of seats SEA-PDX and most trains are sold out of business class. It is the big Christmas rush day and the new year schedule has only been in effect for about 2 weeks, so maybe a bit of an outlier, but I think it’s a good sign.
 
Septa9739 said:
It looks like there’s still strong demand on the corridor despite the additions. Tomorrow 11, 507, 517, are sold out of seats SEA-PDX and most trains are sold out of business class. It is the big Christmas rush day and the new year schedule has only been in effect for about 2 weeks, so maybe a bit of an outlier, but I think it’s a good sign.
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Any count of total seats for each of the cascades trains?
 
trimetbusfan said:
Talgos top out at 272 (230 coach, 42 business)

Horizons (with their current 3 coach + BC/Cafe configuration) top out at 218 (204 coach, 14 business)
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I'll skip the overall comparisons for this Sunday, Dec. 24th due to the holiday, but it is clear that the two additional trains have brought the coach fares down.

For Business Class, there still are not enough seats with the Horizons:

0645 =$87
0820 = $87
1040 = SO
1410 = SO
1556 = NA
1755 = $56
1925 = $87
 
The Columbian published an article about whether the expanded Cascades service is enough to be a commuter rail option:

https://www.columbian.com/news/2023...commuter-option-from-vancouver-into-portland/The answer is that while it isn't specifically meant to be that, for some commutes, it could be useful, both coming and going.
One thing the article doesn't mention, but that is obvious, is that while the train trip from the Vancouver to Portland stations is very quick, the Vancouver station isn't very accessible from most of Vancouver.
 
west point said:
Talgos top out at 272 (230 coach, 42 business)

Only 3 - 68 passenger coaches per train set? Ridiculous. How many train sets? Where is Washington DOT?
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What is Washington DOT supposed to do? Conjure up equipment out of thin air? Amtrak is short of equipment as it is, and their fleet was never meant to cover Cascades service as it had its own fleet, five sets of which were retired following the derailment and subsequent NTSB report.

It’s, frankly, a miracle Amtrak had the coaches to send out there in the first place.
 
Trogdor said:
What is Washington DOT supposed to do? Conjure up equipment out of thin air? Amtrak is short of equipment as it is, and their fleet was never meant to cover Cascades service as it had its own fleet, five sets of which were retired following the derailment and subsequent NTSB report.

It’s, frankly, a miracle Amtrak had the coaches to send out there in the first place.
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Amtrak had coaches because CA returned 16 horizon coaches and 3 dinners.
Washing DOT could have taken the midwest talgo 8 sets
 
Matthew H Fish said:
From this, it looks like the business class tickets fluctuate with demand. I am wondering what business class offer that is worth (in some cases) tripling the ticket price, but obviously, for some people, it is worth it.
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That's been the subject of a lot of discussions in other threads here, due to wide variations between corridors.

Specifically, for the Cascades it's seating handy to the food service, 2+1 seating, a $3 voucher for use in the food service, priority boarding, and access in Portland to the Metropolitan Lounge. Often, it's quieter than coach class, but that's not guaranteed.

The Talgo consists had more BC seats than the Horizon cars, so the demand-based pricing kept BC fares only about 33% to 50% higher than coach. Occasionally, things like large group moves in coach would result in BC fares lower than coach!

Notes:
  1. Coach fares are only fixed on the bus connections. Otherwise, all of the Cascades train fares are an interaction between supply and demand.
  2. I'm typing in Denver, based on travel a couple of times a year over the past 52 years, so one who rides more frequently might have more to say.
  3. Before BC, there were seat charges for daytime space in Pullman cars and seat charges for parlor cars (1+1 seating) on the Cascades corridor. These usually required a First Class fare. In the later years, Great Northern offered SEA<>VCR parlor car seat charges over the coach fare.
 
The ratio of Coach, Business Class, and First Class fares can be interesting. I found the following PDX<>SEA rates from before the invention of Business Class. I omitted the Federal Transportation Tax, as it applied to all public modes.

October 1959 - 4 trains daily

ROUND-TRIP FARES
Roomette = $12.75 + $16.20 = $29.15
Lower Berth = $12.75 + $11.60 = $24.35.
Day Pullman Seat Charge = $12.75 + $4.00 = $16.75.
Parlor Seat Charge = $12.75 + $3.20 = $15.95.
6-mos Coach = $9.10. Based on ICC Western Region tariff.
30-day Coach = $7.20.
15-day Coach = $4.95.

The short-short limit fare only lasted till the mid-60's. It was matched by Greyhound. When the craziness ended, the 30-day Coach became the cheapest by default and GL matched that. While it lasted, the Pool Line ads were headlined "Portland - Seattle Round Trip $4.95 ... LESS THAN A TANK OF GAS!" Long strings of heavyweight coaches became common.

August 1972 - 2½ trains daily

ROUND TRIP FARES
Roomette = $16 + $16.20 = $32.20.
Day Seat Charge = $16 + $4.00 = $20.00.
6-mos Coach = $11.
30-day Coach = $8.95.

In honor (?) of the end of Greyhound Lines between PDX and SEA, I'll upload some sample schedules in the appropriate thread.
 
Willbridge said:
That's been the subject of a lot of discussions in other threads here, due to wide variations between corridors.

Specifically, for the Cascades it's seating handy to the food service, 2+1 seating, a $3 voucher for use in the food service, priority boarding, and access in Portland to the Metropolitan Lounge. Often, it's quieter than coach class, but that's not guaranteed.
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I might be old fashioned, but spending $50 extra to get a $3 (or even $4) discount on a $6 bagel (or however much they charge now) doesn't seem like the wisest use of money! But of course, there are business travellers who have a lot more money than me.
But more relevantly, I guess I was curious, because the fact that the prices for marginally better business service are so high means that demand for the train is high.
 

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