Amtrak Accident in Chicago

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Great pics!!!!!!!!

You can see the collision posts worked well to keep the nose from crushing the crew, but I'm curious if that's the consoles in the window.

From the side pic, It's clear the crew compartment wasn't damaged too bad. It looks like the truck may have pushed up into the console area or possibly the crew slamming against the console.

Still a bad scene!!!!!!!

It looks repairable!

MJ :(
 
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Whoever made the comment about the brake application shouldn't make assumptions or listen to the media.

The only proof is the event recorder after download and "Nobody" has that info except Amtrak and it will be examined by Amtrak within the 1st few hrs and the NTSB. The download is considered as evidence and a record of "chain of custody" follows it as it passes from hand to hand!!

MJ B)
 
Miami Joe said:
Whoever made the comment about the brake application shouldn't make assumptions or listen to the media.
The only proof is the event recorder after download and "Nobody" has that info except Amtrak and it will be examined by Amtrak within the 1st few hrs and the NTSB. The download is considered as evidence and a record of "chain of custody" follows it as it passes from hand to hand!!

MJ B)
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The comments about brake application were actually made by passengers on board the train. now of course we will all have to wait until teh NTSB has finished their investigation to find out what really happened. It may have been that the passengers did not feel any braking; I often do not feel the braking on those superliners, especially at low speeds.

peter
 
One of the factors in this accident is the fact that the regular engineer was on vacation on the day of the accident (so an extra board engineer was on duty), 2) There was a student engineer on board, 3) the engineer was recrewed at Grand Rapids this morning due to turning on not enough sleep. The recrewing engineer was also from the extra board. From the footage from the Security camera (if you haven't seen it look here http://www.rfdi.info/amtrak.wmv) The engine crew would have had a difficult time seeing the obstruction in the tracks ahead of them. For me this accident is kinda tough due to the fact that I personally knew all the crew on board. But alas we are all human and are prone to make mistakes...
 
I looked at that NS video myself last night, and I have a couple of theories.

First off it's very obvious to me that the three people on the head end were the engineer, a road foreman, and a student/qualifying engineer. My theory behind this is that the Michigan jobs only have one engineer since they are so short, thus explaining the other two individuals. I personally would not call into question the credentials of the road foreman, they typically have excellent safety records, and are very good engineers. The third man on the motor was either a student in the process of earning his license and being evaluated by the road foreman, or it was an engineer qualifying on that portion of the road so that he can operate a train himself between CHI and GR.

As to how it happened, this is my theory. If you watch the video there is a stack train moving parallel to the Amtrak train (on track 3 for our purposes). Over on track 1 is a manifest train which is stopped. On track two is another stack train, that is stopped, and the approaching Amtrak train. Because of the masses of signals on the signal bridges I believe the Amtrak crew read the signal for track 3 and proceeded on that indication, not realizing they had a stop signal or restricting signal on track 2. This is also the point in the trip when the crew is starting to put their things together for the arrival into Chicago. It's possible that (hypothetically) the Engineer was running, and went to go put his things away or use the restroom, and the road foreman moved over to the controls, with the signal they were proceeding on either misread, or not properly conveyed from one person to the next.

Again, these are just my conspiracy theories, but I feel that what comes out from the NTSB in this case is very plausible.
 
battalion51 said:
As to how it happened, this is my theory. If you watch the video there is a stack train moving parallel to the Amtrak train (on track 3 for our purposes). Over on track 1 is a manifest train which is stopped. On track two is another stack train, that is stopped, and the approaching Amtrak train. Because of the masses of signals on the signal bridges I believe the Amtrak crew read the signal for track 3 and proceeded on that indication, not realizing they had a stop signal or restricting signal on track 2. This is also the point in the trip when the crew is starting to put their things together for the arrival into Chicago. It's possible that (hypothetically) the Engineer was running, and went to go put his things away or use the restroom, and the road foreman moved over to the controls, with the signal they were proceeding on either misread, or not properly conveyed from one person to the next.
Again, these are just my conspiracy theories, but I feel that what comes out from the NTSB in this case is very plausible.
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There is one flaw in your theory, the manifest train on track #1 is in motion. It's not moving very fast, but it is nonetheless moving in the opposite direction from the Amtrak train, RR south.

This flaw in no way discounts your theory, you could still be correct overall in you analysis of what might have happened.
 
When those that make the determinations about what happened finish their investigation, is a report made public so that we can all look at it?

We had a very bad airplane crash near where I live last year and recently the federal government department that handles such things came to town and gave a full report to all who were interested in hearing it. Assume the same thing happens here?

How long does it usually take to get the final outcome report. if anyone knows? I know there is a lot of investigation that needs to be done, but are we talking months or years? Just curious.

Thanks!
 
MrFSS said:
When those that make the determinations about what happened finish their investigation, is a report made public so that we can all look at it?
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The report is generally posted on the NTSB's website, once the investigation is done. Sometimes they even post updates while they are working on the report.

MrFSS said:
We had a very bad airplane crash near where I live last year and recently the federal government department that handles such things came to town and gave a full report to all who were interested in hearing it. Assume the same thing happens here?
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I'm not sure if they'll actually hold a town meeting as it were, but I supose anything is possible.

MrFSS said:
How long does it usually take to get the final outcome report. if anyone knows? I know there is a lot of investigation that needs to be done, but are we talking months or years? Just curious.
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Usually at least a year, many times longer depending on just how hard it is to figure things out, as well as how many other accidents occur during the next year or so.
 
AlanB said:
There is one flaw in your theory, the manifest train on track #1 is in motion. It's not moving very fast, but it is nonetheless moving in the opposite direction from the Amtrak train, RR south.
This flaw in no way discounts your theory, you could still be correct overall in you analysis of what might have happened.
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Didn't notice that the first time around. Either way there would have been a stop indication showing on the signal bridge. It's the parallel train that really makes me wonder.
 
After watching the video, it was a big jolt! I can noticed that the rear Superliner car almost lifted into the air. It appeared that the track is curve and is blocked by other train. I agree to wait at least a year for the facts, not assumptions, from NTSB.
 
Does it look to you like the 4th track from the right is empty? Black train, Amtrak train, orange stack train, empty line, train?
 
Look at those tank cars on the right. I hate to imagine the scene if the Superliners had jumped the track

and pancaked into those cars.
 
MrFSS said:
How long does it usually take to get the final outcome report. if anyone knows? I know there is a lot of investigation that needs to be done, but are we talking months or years? Just curious.
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Alan's estimate of at least a year may be more realistic, but the NTSB implied it would take less than a year to the Associated Press, which reported:

A team of nine NTSB investigators planned to begin interviewing crew members, passengers, dispatchers and supervisors Saturday, but said the investigation could take months to complete.

 

Officials also hoped to review information from the passenger train's event recorder, a device similar to the black boxes on airliners. Retrieving it from the wreck will take ''finesse,'' authorities said.

(AP article in the New York Times)

"Finesse" may be an understatement, given the pictures....
 
It does boggle the mind what could have happened if the rear of the freight had been an LPG tank car or some other dangerous hazmat. While we still sympathize with the injured and hope for everyone's recovery, the outcome could have been SO much worse.......
 
I noticed something weird about the video...

The camera pans to the left slightly and stops to perfectly frame the accident. Was someone running this camera and saw what was about to happen?

Just to be clear, I am not saying this is a conspiracy and done on purpose.
 
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ITS A CONSPIRACY!!!

But here are my two observations -

1) Engineer couldn't see stopped train because of the curve and the moving train on his left and stopped train on the right.

2) I don't see in this video where they would have had a "Clear" signal on ANY of those tracks except those on the far, far left. I don't think those could have been misunderstood.

My thought -

Somehow automatic lighting wasn't being used. Dispatch left a light on clear instead of stop. Is there no ATC (or ATS) on these lines???
 
Well it doesn't even necessarily have to be a clear signal, what I meant by "clear signal" was an indication that didn't indicate restricting or stop. A "clear signal" could mean, Clear, Medium Clear, Limited Clear, Slow Clear, Advance Approach, Approach, Medium Approach, Limited Approach, Slow Approach. All of those indications give you permission to proceed past the signal (and if it ends in approach and isn't Advance Approach) reduce to medium speed and be prepared to stop at the next signal, but the block you are in is clear.
 
VentureForth said:
1) Engineer couldn't see stopped train because of the curve and the moving train on his left and stopped train on the right.
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Again as I noted above, the train on the right was not stopped. It was in motion, very slowly, but it was nonetheless moving. However stopped or moving, I don't think that it would have made any difference if indeed it's presence helped to contribute to the accident.

VentureForth said:
Somehow automatic lighting wasn't being used. Dispatch left a light on clear instead of stop. Is there no ATC (or ATS) on these lines???
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No, ATS and/or ATC (also sometimes known at Positive Train Control [PTC]), does not exist on most tracks outside of the NEC. The freight companies don't want to spend the money to install such a system
 
Train braked, officials say

NTSB says cause of wreck still unclear

By Monique Garcia and Emma Graves Fitzsimmons, Tribune staff reporters

December 2, 2007

An Amtrak train traveling about 40 m.p.h. applied its brakes for 9 seconds and skidded 400 to 500 feet before hitting a stopped freight train Friday, transportation officials said Saturday.

The South Side crash injured 60 people and heavily damaged the trains and tracks.

Federal investigators provided new details of the crash from information retrieved Saturday from the Amtrak train's "event recorder, " a device similar to an airplane's "black box," which measures speed, brake application and acceleration.

A team of investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board braved harsh weather as they began their inquiry into why the two trains were on the same track simultaneously, causing the late-morning crash near 51st Street and Shields Avenue.

All passengers and crew members who were treated for injuries have been released from area hospitals, said Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari.

NTSB Vice Chairman Robert Sumwalt said officials were on a "fact-finding" mission Saturday to determine why the Amtrak train from Grand Rapids, Mich. -- minutes from its Union Station destination -- rear-ended the 20-car Norfolk Southern freight train that had stopped on the same tracks. The Amtrak train was traveling about 35 m.p.h. at the point of impact, officials said.

Sumwalt said the Amtrak train had slowed to 9 to 10 m.p.h. as it passed through a track intersection in Englewood, switching from one set of tracks to another to pass a standing train, according to information culled from the event recorder. After the Amtrak train passed, it began to accelerate to 40 m.p.h. The speed limit for a passenger train in that area is 79 m.p.h.

The train barely reached 40 m.p.h. when the engineer saw the freight train and "put the train into emergency breaking." The distance from the Englewood interlocking to the point of impact was 1.7 miles and took 4 minutes to travel.

About 9 seconds passed from the point where the engineer applied the Amtrak train's brakes to the point of impact, in which it rode up on the back of a freight train car.

Track signals were tested and appeared to be working, but officials will not know how they operated leading up to the crash until they recover the event recorder in the signals, Sumwalt said.

A police "blue light" surveillance camera provided 36 hours of video, but the camera's range did not show the signals, officials said.

"We don't know what caused this accident. So, therefore, it's hard to say what would have prevented it," Sumwalt said.
 
Well I think it's pretty obvious that cab signals would have prevented it, duh. But it seems like based on that info that the signal was misread. Seems like they got a slow approach but proceeded on a slow clear.
 
My theory ? This fairly new Engineer thought the restricted signal was just for interlocking, where he just crossed over to other track.

He/she did not realize the restricted signal governs till a better signal is passed.
 
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