Airlines retrenching

[Sky Pilot]

One area that I could see working as a businessman for a LD trip would be to have (resurrect?) sleeper car service from NPN to NYP/BOS. The 4:55 departure (66) is great for BOS although the NYP timing isn't very good. I can say that when I have meetings in DC, I often take this train, arrive in ALX around 8:30 PM and hit the Metro for my morning meetings, and return. There are hotels near ALX and I find it far easier than driving 3+ hours at 0-Dark:30 to make a morning meeting. With the imminent demise of AirTran at PHF this spring, non-stop service to BOS and LGA is going away (although Delta is picking up some service from ORF). But again, maybe it's me as a bit of a railfan, but I would find a sleeper from NPN to NYP that arrived at say 630 or 7AM far preferable to gettting up at 3:30 AM to get to ORF by 5AM for an early flight so I can then take an hour to get to Manhattan from JFK or LGA.

One other route I'd like to see is NPN to CHI via RVM, CHO and the balance of the Cardinal route.

Blue Skies ..

[sNIP]

2) Nitpick: It's CVS, not CHO, but good guess.

[sNIP]

You're right, of course. CHO is the FAA identifier for the airport there which in keeping with the spirt of this thread about airports is probably going to face the same issues that PHF and ROA are facing with the airlines retrenching.

 

[Anderson]

One area that I could see working as a businessman for a LD trip would be to have (resurrect?) sleeper car service from NPN to NYP/BOS. The 4:55 departure (66) is great for BOS although the NYP timing isn't very good. I can say that when I have meetings in DC, I often take this train, arrive in ALX around 8:30 PM and hit the Metro for my morning meetings, and return. There are hotels near ALX and I find it far easier than driving 3+ hours at 0-Dark:30 to make a morning meeting. With the imminent demise of AirTran at PHF this spring, non-stop service to BOS and LGA is going away (although Delta is picking up some service from ORF). But again, maybe it's me as a bit of a railfan, but I would find a sleeper from NPN to NYP that arrived at say 630 or 7AM far preferable to gettting up at 3:30 AM to get to ORF by 5AM for an early flight so I can then take an hour to get to Manhattan from JFK or LGA.

One other route I'd like to see is NPN to CHI via RVM, CHO and the balance of the Cardinal route.

Blue Skies ..

[sNIP]

2) Nitpick: It's CVS, not CHO, but good guess.

[sNIP]

You're right, of course. CHO is the FAA identifier for the airport there which in keeping with the spirt of this thread about airports is probably going to face the same issues that PHF and ROA are facing with the airlines retrenching.

I'll concur, but I'll note that with both the Lynchburger and the Crescent running through the area, Charlottesville and Roanoke are almost better-positioned to "eat" the loss in rail service:

-The Crescent gets you to Philly around noon, probably before if the train is "on time"

-The Lynchburger gets you there mid-afternoon

-The Cardinal, when it runs (and hopefully daily before too long), offers a roughly 3 PM departure, which allows you most of a work day in Charlottesville before heading off to the station, and an evening arrival up north.

Southbound:

-The Cardinal leaves NYP in the morning and gets to CVS by mid-afternoon

-The Lynchburger leaves New York in early afternoon and gets to CVS by about 7:30

-The Crescent leaves NYP towards the middle of the afternoon, leaves Philly at nearly 4 (allowing close to a full work day), and hits Charlottesville a bit before 9 PM

-66/67 plus a bus offers something of an overnight trip, though the bus is a deal killer IMHO

So Charlottesville is decently well-covered even with only a daily Cardinal, and I'm hard-pressed to see much of an earlier departure from NYP than 6:45 AM unless Amtrak is willing to accept a train that NYP is somewhat secondary for, and where the main target market is PHL/BAL/WAS and points south.

To wit: If the Norfolk train was coming into NPN (or was being paired with a later Norfolk departure as well), you'd have similar coverage (an early morning train, a later morning train, and an evening train not particularly good for NYP but solid for at least PHL). The big problem there (as I've probably said 20 times before) is that the trains are coming into two stations about 30-40 minutes from one another, which is one expensive taxi ride (public transit not really being an option). You can't transfer from Norfolk to Newport News like you can from Jamaica to Penn.

 

[afigg]

The Michigan-area markets are not insubstantial, and I suspect that (as tends to be the case with these things) the choice between a bus transfer from Detroit to Toledo (generally at a bad hour) or a train to Chicago and then backtracking is suppressing the rail market in that area as well. Amtrak looked at re-routing the Lake Shore Limited via Detroit but decided against it.

Also, do remember that Canada isn't bound by the 79 MPH rule, and Via runs a lot in the region. There's a decent chance that you'd have virtually the entire NYP-CHI route with (non-curve non-bridge) speed limits of 90-110 MPH, which could get the average speed up in the 65 MPH range.

Picking back up on the Twilight Limited route idea, the total NYP-CHI mileage looks to be shorter than the Lake Shore Limited route. Must be old timetables with the mileage from Dearborn/Detroit to Niagara Falls via southern Ontario.

The funded improvements on the CHI-DET corridor should reduce the trip times to around 4.5 hours. Say NY can reduce NYP to Niagara Falls trip times to 8 hours, down from 9 and a quarter for the Maple Leaf. There were not all that expensive congestion relief and track upgrade project applications by NY state for the western Empire corridor that combined with the improvements on the NYP to Schenectady section that might make 8 hours doable even without the 110 mph 3rd track on the western corridor. Figure 5 hours, maybe, to get through southern Ontario non-stop with some sort of customs / border patrol stop. So 17.5 hours CHI-NYP via that route, quite possibly even shorter. The scheduling would be straightforward as the non-stop run through southern Ontario would be in the middle of the night.

Would business travelers take it? Probably not very many, but if low cost or affordable air fares go away and the total trip time could be cut to 16 hours, could see that start to change.

 

[Anderson]

Well, I'm not sure how much farther the airlines can push things before Amtrak would have an opening. Taking NYP-CHI, I could book that round trip for Jan 3/5 for $258.30. Mind you, that's coach, but that's also with one leg starting at $190 versus the other leg sitting at about $97. This is already less than the lowest relevant airfare, which is around $290 after taxes and fees (and assuming you dodge all other fees that lurk in the wings) and before cab fare into Chicago, etc.

Moving ahead to January 10/12 (to get clear of the last holiday travel), and that comes down to $174.60. So at least on paper, Amtrak's fares are competitive...the problem, cost-wise, is the sleeper side of things on the Lake Shore route in particular. The "lost day" eastbound is also a problem.

If Amtrak could run the Twilight Limited in 17.5 hours (assume they're stuck with a 3:45 departure from NYP...that gives an 8:15 AM arrival in Chicago, which beats the Cap into town by 30 minutes), they could probably get the Lake Shore easily clear of rush hour...a 6 PM departure eastbound (in line with the Cap these days) would arrive sometime around noon or 1 PM. It's half of a day lost, which is a problem...but nothing like the present evening arrival. Not only that, but the Twilight Limited would actually make a connection with the Silver Meteor SB.

Would such a routing steal tons of business from the airlines? Possibly not. But I think it could take enough...there are dozens of direct NYC-Chicago flights daily. Amtrak doesn't need to take 50% of the market here. All it needs on this route is to grab one or two plane loads out of the mix to fill an LD train to the brim (and far less to pack a bunch of sleepers), and I think a 16-hour routing could definitely do that...particularly if airfares go up another 20% in the next few years. After all, I suspect that all signs looking forward are that Amtrak isn't the only form of travel looking to control demand with high prices, and that an economic pickup won't necessarily herald them re-adding capacity.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

Now see, I just got word that I have to travel to NYC on Monday. I need to be there for 9am Tuesday morning, so I have a hotel in the city Monday night. The Pennsylvanian would be fine for the trip up, but to come home Tuesday, I'd have to leave NYC at 10:50am. US airways wants about $383 to fly me up and back plus another $60 each way for a car from LGA to Mid-town, but the flight leaves PGH at 5:35am... no thanks. Checking Amtrak, I see that it is high(er) bucket eastbound at $110 and even higher bound at $137. Normally, this trip is $70 in low bucket.

Amtrak would have to charge $121.50 for a roomette each way before they equaled just the US Airways price.

$383 at US Airways RT.

$70 + $121.50 for a roomette each way or $383 rt for Amtrak

Low bucket roomettes from PGH to CHI are $96 and PGH to WAS are $88.

So Amtrak is leaving money on the table by not doing a second run with some Viewliners once they get delivered.

It is just about the lowest hanging fruit on the tree for increasing ridership even without the sleeping accommodations because it would increase the flexibility for travelers.

.... and so, I have a rental car from National and I'm driving it instead.

Well, and with Amtrak, wouldn't you also come out ahead on both the rental car ($60) and any airport parking costs? Also, what would it cost to do the train to NYC and then to fly back? I know that's not ideal, but it's worth considering.

Well I normally don't do a rental car when I'm going to NYC. I take the Pennsylvanian or fly and then just use cabs or the subway depending on how much I'm taking with me. In this case, I was only renting a car because I was going to drive up instead of fly. Company policy dictates that we use a rental car for any trip over 250 miles.

But this trip is yet again an example. As of this morning it is canceled. If I had bought a ticket with US Airways, I would have been screwed. As long as I hadn't printed my tickets for the Pennsylvanian, I could get a full refund.

 

[Anderson]

Now see, I just got word that I have to travel to NYC on Monday. I need to be there for 9am Tuesday morning, so I have a hotel in the city Monday night. The Pennsylvanian would be fine for the trip up, but to come home Tuesday, I'd have to leave NYC at 10:50am. US airways wants about $383 to fly me up and back plus another $60 each way for a car from LGA to Mid-town, but the flight leaves PGH at 5:35am... no thanks. Checking Amtrak, I see that it is high(er) bucket eastbound at $110 and even higher bound at $137. Normally, this trip is $70 in low bucket.

Amtrak would have to charge $121.50 for a roomette each way before they equaled just the US Airways price.

$383 at US Airways RT.

$70 + $121.50 for a roomette each way or $383 rt for Amtrak

Low bucket roomettes from PGH to CHI are $96 and PGH to WAS are $88.

So Amtrak is leaving money on the table by not doing a second run with some Viewliners once they get delivered.

It is just about the lowest hanging fruit on the tree for increasing ridership even without the sleeping accommodations because it would increase the flexibility for travelers.

.... and so, I have a rental car from National and I'm driving it instead.

Well, and with Amtrak, wouldn't you also come out ahead on both the rental car ($60) and any airport parking costs? Also, what would it cost to do the train to NYC and then to fly back? I know that's not ideal, but it's worth considering.

Well I normally don't do a rental car when I'm going to NYC. I take the Pennsylvanian or fly and then just use cabs or the subway depending on how much I'm taking with me. In this case, I was only renting a car because I was going to drive up instead of fly. Company policy dictates that we use a rental car for any trip over 250 miles.

But this trip is yet again an example. As of this morning it is canceled. If I had bought a ticket with US Airways, I would have been screwed. As long as I hadn't printed my tickets for the Pennsylvanian, I could get a full refund.

And even had you printed it out, you'd either be out $10-20 on the round trip or have a full credit to use in the future (either on the Pennsylvanian or on the Cap), while most airlines force steep change fees.

By the way, IIRC, that cab from LGA (or JFK or Newark) wouldn't be cheap. The subway is a bit of a neutral matter (I'd assume you'd be taking it a similar amount, and the system-wide fare is flat in either case), but "cabbing" can get quite pricey in NYC.

 

[tp49]

Cabs are flat rate from the airports into and out of Manhattan IIRC $25 each way to LGA and $35 to JFK. LGA is not really transit accessible (at least by subway) but JFK is via Airtrain and the LIRR to NYP. During morning rush shouldn't take more than 45 minutes to get from JFK to midtown that way since there's an LIRR train leaving approximately every 2-3 minutes to NYP.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

Now see, I just got word that I have to travel to NYC on Monday. I need to be there for 9am Tuesday morning, so I have a hotel in the city Monday night. The Pennsylvanian would be fine for the trip up, but to come home Tuesday, I'd have to leave NYC at 10:50am. US airways wants about $383 to fly me up and back plus another $60 each way for a car from LGA to Mid-town, but the flight leaves PGH at 5:35am... no thanks. Checking Amtrak, I see that it is high(er) bucket eastbound at $110 and even higher bound at $137. Normally, this trip is $70 in low bucket.

Amtrak would have to charge $121.50 for a roomette each way before they equaled just the US Airways price.

$383 at US Airways RT.

$70 + $121.50 for a roomette each way or $383 rt for Amtrak

Low bucket roomettes from PGH to CHI are $96 and PGH to WAS are $88.

So Amtrak is leaving money on the table by not doing a second run with some Viewliners once they get delivered.

It is just about the lowest hanging fruit on the tree for increasing ridership even without the sleeping accommodations because it would increase the flexibility for travelers.

.... and so, I have a rental car from National and I'm driving it instead.

Well, and with Amtrak, wouldn't you also come out ahead on both the rental car ($60) and any airport parking costs? Also, what would it cost to do the train to NYC and then to fly back? I know that's not ideal, but it's worth considering.

Well I normally don't do a rental car when I'm going to NYC. I take the Pennsylvanian or fly and then just use cabs or the subway depending on how much I'm taking with me. In this case, I was only renting a car because I was going to drive up instead of fly. Company policy dictates that we use a rental car for any trip over 250 miles.

But this trip is yet again an example. As of this morning it is canceled. If I had bought a ticket with US Airways, I would have been screwed. As long as I hadn't printed my tickets for the Pennsylvanian, I could get a full refund.

And even had you printed it out, you'd either be out $10-20 on the round trip or have a full credit to use in the future (either on the Pennsylvanian or on the Cap), while most airlines force steep change fees.

By the way, IIRC, that cab from LGA (or JFK or Newark) wouldn't be cheap. The subway is a bit of a neutral matter (I'd assume you'd be taking it a similar amount, and the system-wide fare is flat in either case), but "cabbing" can get quite pricey in NYC.

We use a car service from LGA to Mid-town for $60 a trip. It's through the company, but I am still mindful of my budget and costs. Once I'm in mid-town, I don't really wander too far from the office and hotel.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

Cabs are flat rate from the airports into and out of Manhattan IIRC $25 each way to LGA and $35 to JFK. LGA is not really transit accessible (at least by subway) but JFK is via Airtrain and the LIRR to NYP. During morning rush shouldn't take more than 45 minutes to get from JFK to midtown that way since there's an LIRR train leaving approximately every 2-3 minutes to NYP.

The cab prices are higher than that for both airports..

 

[NY Penn]

It's a flat $45 Manhattan<=>JFK. IIRC there's no flat Manhattan<=>LGA rate.

 

[Donctor]

I cab it from the East Village to JFK and LGA. I've twice been delayed by an hour or more by MTA. Not again.