Airlines retrenching

[PRR 60]

PRR ran the All Pullman Pittsburgher from NYP to Pittsburgh into the mid 1960s 6 nights per week.

What were the travel times?

Schedule effective 01/18/54

Train 60/86

2300 PGH

2314 East Liberty, PA

2359 LAB

0145 ALT

0410 HAR

0550 PAO

0617 PHN

0648 TRE

0742 NWK

0800 NYP

Sleepers open at 2130.

Train 61/87

2359 NYP

0014 NWK

0059 TRE

0129 PHN

0242 LNC

0331 HAR

0549 ALT

0739 LAB

0753 GNB

0821 East Pittsburgh, PA

0835 East Liberty, PA

0900 PGH

Sleepers open at 2200.

In the 1960's, the Pittsburgher ran via 30th Street Station, not via the Zoo (Phila) Pittsburgh Subway. The schedule looked like this:

Eastbound train #60

10:40p - lv Pittsburgh <== Sleeping cars open 9:30p

10:50p - lv East Liberty

11:25p - lv Greensburg

11:38p - lv Latrobe

12:20a - lv Johnstown

1:26a - lv Altoona

3:51a - lv Harrisburg

5:57a - ar Philadelphia (30th St) <== PHL sleepers may be occupied until 7:30a

6:15a - ar North Philadelphia

6:44a - ar Trenton

7:32a - ar Newark

7:50a - ar New York (Penna Sta)

Westbound train #61

11:45p - lv New York (Penna Sta) <== Sleeping cars open 10:30p

11:59p - lv Newark

1:43a - lv Philadelphia (30th St) <== Sleeping cars open 10:00p

2:58a - lv Lancaster

3:35a - lv Harrisburg

6:09a - lv Altoona

7:17a - lv Johnstown (D)

7:56a - lv Latrobe (D)

8:10a - lv Greensburg

8:40a - lv East Pittsburgh

8:53a - lv East Liberty

9:05a - ar Pittsburgh

Train equipment

 

Lounge car NYP-PGH - bar, 6 dbl BRs

Sleeping car NYP-PGH - 12 duplex rooms, 4 dbl BR's (2 cars)

Sleeping car NYP-PGH - 4 compartments, 2 drawing rooms, 4 dbl BR's

Sleeping car NYP-PGH - 10 roomettes, 6 dbl BR's (2 cars)

Sleeping car PHL-PGH - 12 duplex rooms, 5 dbl BR's

Sleeping car PHL-PGH - 10 roomettes, 5 dbl BR's

Dining car NYP-PGH - breakfast service only

from PRR Form 1 - April 30, 1961

 

[PRR 60]

PRR ran the All Pullman Pittsburgher from NYP to Pittsburgh into the mid 1960s 6 nights per week.

What were the travel times?

Schedule effective 01/18/54

Train 60/86

2300 PGH

2314 East Liberty, PA

2359 LAB

0145 ALT

0410 HAR

0550 PAO

0617 PHN

0648 TRE

0742 NWK

0800 NYP

Sleepers open at 2130.

Train 61/87

2359 NYP

0014 NWK

0059 TRE

0129 PHN

0242 LNC

0331 HAR

0549 ALT

0739 LAB

0753 GNB

0821 East Pittsburgh, PA

0835 East Liberty, PA

0900 PGH

Sleepers open at 2200.

That would be utterly perfect for biz travel to NYP! I could work in NYC all day and then come back home that night, straight back to the office the next morning!

Back in the 1960's, my father regularly had business that required travel from our home in Philadelphia to Pittsburgh. He always flew using TWA (and they served a hot meal during the 90-minute flight). At the insistence of his then annoying teenage son, he tried the PRR’s Pittsburgher for one of his trips. Afterwards, he told me it was a very nice ride. I think he was being kind to me. The next time he headed to Pittsburgh, he was back on the plane. He never rode the train again. I think he would rather finish his business in Pittsburgh, fly back and spend the night at home, than bum around Pittsburgh until 9:30, ride all night on the train, head straight to work, and not get home until the next evening.

If using the train for business travel requires an overnight ride, I think the appeal is limited to rail travel fans on business. I can't imagine a business traveler thinking that trading a night in a hotel room and breakfast in a restaurant, for a night on Amtrak in a moving closet (with a vacuum toilet) and breakfast in a dining car is a good deal. Plus, if your business is the next morning, that train better be on time. I regularly had business that required me to be somewhere at 8 or 9am the next morning. There is no way I would trust an Amtrak morning arrival to meet that obligation. Coming back home, most travelers would prefer to spend the night at home with their family than spend another travel night on the train.

There are reasons why the 20th Century Limited, the Broadway Limited and the Pittsburghers died. In the end, no one rode them. Even a 16 hour schedule New York to Chicago could not compete with a 3 hour plane ride. The plane turned three-night trips into one night trips.

The 1950's are gone. In 2011, there is virtually no market for business travel on Amtrak overnight trains no matter how much rail enthusiasts may wish otherwise.

 

[TCRT]

Serious question involving the NYP-PGH overnight idea: Would it be viable to run a through section from Boston with about a 5-6 PM departure? It would arrive in NYP around 9-10 PM, which is far enough off-peak that it would be akin to 66/67 sitting in the station such as it does. EB, the connection would be messier (this is always a headache: You've got more flexibility in the evening than in the morning), but it would add single-seat service along there (and to a non-trivial set of markets, too).

I'm not sure how much of a market there might be for that, given that a direct BOS-PIT flight is under two hours and (sometimes) under $50 one way, and unlike PHL-PIT isn't getting axed anytime soon (at least not to my knowledge). I don't know whether or not there is potential ridership from western MA for that market, but the CSX B&A route is also frequently the source of major delays for the Lake Shore Limited Boston section because it's single-tracked (there's over an hour of padding in the schedule for 448/449), and on top of that the speed limit is slow, something like 50mph (it's also a really scenic trip, but that's beside the point).

Still, there's always a big line of people for 67 out of BOS every night headed to destinations south of NYP where good and cheap air service can be had, so perhaps such a service to PIT would also work.

 

[afigg]

Serious question involving the NYP-PGH overnight idea: Would it be viable to run a through section from Boston with about a 5-6 PM departure? It would arrive in NYP around 9-10 PM, which is far enough off-peak that it would be akin to 66/67 sitting in the station such as it does. EB, the connection would be messier (this is always a headache: You've got more flexibility in the evening than in the morning), but it would add single-seat service along there (and to a non-trivial set of markets, too).

I'm not sure how much of a market there might be for that, given that a direct BOS-PIT flight is under two hours and (sometimes) under $50 one way, and unlike PHL-PIT isn't getting axed anytime soon (at least not to my knowledge). I don't know whether or not there is potential ridership from western MA for that market, but the CSX B&A route is also frequently the source of major delays for the Lake Shore Limited Boston section because it's single-tracked (there's over an hour of padding in the schedule for 448/449), and on top of that the speed limit is slow, something like 50mph (it's also a really scenic trip, but that's beside the point).

Still, there's always a big line of people for 67 out of BOS every night headed to destinations south of NYP where good and cheap air service can be had, so perhaps such a service to PIT would also work.

A fundamental issue with providing additional service from NYP to BOS is the 39 trains a day limit on the Shore Line route. If Amtrak were to provide connecting cars from BOS over the NEC to a southbound LD train or a overnight train to PGH, they would have to be added on an existing NE Regional as Amtrak has no spare slots for more trains on weekdays. I don't think Amtrak is going to be inclined to do car switching inside NYP on a regular basis. The best they could do is control the traffic in NYP enough to be able to reliably arrange for a cross-platform transfer between a BOS-NYP Regional and the LD train people in Boston, RI, CT want to get on.

BTW, PGH is the code for Pittsburgh, PA. PIT is Pittsfield, MA.

 

[trainman74]

Why is there no Amtrak California Thruway Bus service to any of the airports? I am more familiar with the NorCal setup as opposed to SoCal, but the shortest connection point between train to plane is at Oakland... And you still need to get onto a separate bus connector which requires a lengthy walk from the Amtrak station @ Oakland Colosseum to the BART station.

From LA Union Station to LAX, there's already the FlyAway bus service with frequent departures, although perhaps a through-ticketing arrangement for passengers connecting to/from Amtrak would be something to think about.

And at Burbank-Bob Hope Airport, the BUR terminal is within walking distance (although an airport shuttle bus is also available on call).

 

[Oldsmoboi]

PRR ran the All Pullman Pittsburgher from NYP to Pittsburgh into the mid 1960s 6 nights per week.

What were the travel times?

Schedule effective 01/18/54

Train 60/86

2300 PGH

2314 East Liberty, PA

2359 LAB

0145 ALT

0410 HAR

0550 PAO

0617 PHN

0648 TRE

0742 NWK

0800 NYP

Sleepers open at 2130.

Train 61/87

2359 NYP

0014 NWK

0059 TRE

0129 PHN

0242 LNC

0331 HAR

0549 ALT

0739 LAB

0753 GNB

0821 East Pittsburgh, PA

0835 East Liberty, PA

0900 PGH

Sleepers open at 2200.

That would be utterly perfect for biz travel to NYP! I could work in NYC all day and then come back home that night, straight back to the office the next morning!

Back in the 1960's, my father regularly had business that required travel from our home in Philadelphia to Pittsburgh. He always flew using TWA (and they served a hot meal during the 90-minute flight). At the insistence of his then annoying teenage son, he tried the PRR's Pittsburgher for one of his trips. Afterwards, he told me it was a very nice ride. I think he was being kind to me. The next time he headed to Pittsburgh, he was back on the plane. He never rode the train again. I think he would rather finish his business in Pittsburgh, fly back and spend the night at home, than bum around Pittsburgh until 9:30, ride all night on the train, head straight to work, and not get home until the next evening.

If using the train for business travel requires an overnight ride, I think the appeal is limited to rail travel fans on business. I can't imagine a business traveler thinking that trading a night in a hotel room and breakfast in a restaurant, for a night on Amtrak in a moving closet (with a vacuum toilet) and breakfast in a dining car is a good deal. Plus, if your business is the next morning, that train better be on time. I regularly had business that required me to be somewhere at 8 or 9am the next morning. There is no way I would trust an Amtrak morning arrival to meet that obligation. Coming back home, most travelers would prefer to spend the night at home with their family than spend another travel night on the train.

There are reasons why the 20th Century Limited, the Broadway Limited and the Pittsburghers died. In the end, no one rode them. Even a 16 hour schedule New York to Chicago could not compete with a 3 hour plane ride. The plane turned three-night trips into one night trips.

The 1950's are gone. In 2011, there is virtually no market for business travel on Amtrak overnight trains no matter how much rail enthusiasts may wish otherwise.

Not everyone has a family at home. Some of us are on the road a lot and our connection to others is via our smart phone. I've done the trip up to NYC in the morning and then back home that evening. It is an 18 hour day with maybe an hour nap on each flight if you're lucky. The trip from LGA into mid-town SUCKS no matter which route you take.

My scheduling isn't so tight that I have to be there exactly at 9am. But I'm better off arriving at 10 am well rested than 8:30am and having been traveling since 5.

I already have used Amtrak successfully for trips to Chicago. The one time I did fly, American Air turned it into an unparalleled disaster.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

When I'm on vacation I ride the train. When I'm on business I take a plane or I drive.

No company I've ever worked for in my entire life would find the speed, network, frequency, and scheduling of Amtrak's long distance network to be acceptable. Not a single one.

My employers have put me on my choice of airline and secured whatever rental or company vehicle I needed and reimbursed whatever hotel and miscellaneous expenses resulted, but riding Amtrak was simply out of the question. To this day Amtrak still doesn't go anywhere near most of the places I'm likely to be needed and even when it does the timing never works out. Ever. That's not the way I want it; that's just the way it is.

Before Amtrak could be considered a serious competitor to any of the mega-airlines that remain they would need trains that ran double or triple the current speeds with a fleet and network size many times larger than what they have now. We all know that's not going to happen, probably ever, but at least not within our lifetimes.

 

[Donctor]

In the 1960's, the Pittsburgher ran via 30th Street Station, not via the Zoo (Phila) Pittsburgh Subway. The schedule looked like this:

Eastbound train #60

10:40p - lv Pittsburgh <== Sleeping cars open 9:30p

10:50p - lv East Liberty

11:25p - lv Greensburg

11:38p - lv Latrobe

12:20a - lv Johnstown

1:26a - lv Altoona

3:51a - lv Harrisburg

5:57a - ar Philadelphia (30th St) <== PHL sleepers may be occupied until 7:30a

6:15a - ar North Philadelphia

6:44a - ar Trenton

7:32a - ar Newark

7:50a - ar New York (Penna Sta)

Westbound train #61

11:45p - lv New York (Penna Sta) <== Sleeping cars open 10:30p

11:59p - lv Newark

1:43a - lv Philadelphia (30th St) <== Sleeping cars open 10:00p

2:58a - lv Lancaster

3:35a - lv Harrisburg

6:09a - lv Altoona

7:17a - lv Johnstown (D)

7:56a - lv Latrobe (D)

8:10a - lv Greensburg

8:40a - lv East Pittsburgh

8:53a - lv East Liberty

9:05a - ar Pittsburgh

Train equipment

 

Lounge car NYP-PGH - bar, 6 dbl BRs

Sleeping car NYP-PGH - 12 duplex rooms, 4 dbl BR's (2 cars)

Sleeping car NYP-PGH - 4 compartments, 2 drawing rooms, 4 dbl BR's

Sleeping car NYP-PGH - 10 roomettes, 6 dbl BR's (2 cars)

Sleeping car PHL-PGH - 12 duplex rooms, 5 dbl BR's

Sleeping car PHL-PGH - 10 roomettes, 5 dbl BR's

Dining car NYP-PGH - breakfast service only

from PRR Form 1 - April 30, 1961

I dig that.

 

[dlagrua]

According to the statistics that Amtrak puts out they serve more business and recreational travelers on the NEC than does the airlines. From BOS to WAS is about a 6 hour train trip but if you've ever flown from Logan to Dulles it can take that long with delays, waits on the tarmac and travel time to and from the airports. Amtrak allows one to travel as a gentleman not as an animal like you do on a plane. Even if the airlines are a alot faster overall I'll do anything to avoid dealing with the arrogant idiots that have been recruited by the TSA to subjugate air passengers and go so low as to stip search grandmas. If big brother ever installs airline type security at the train stations then its car only time.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

When I'm on vacation I ride the train. When I'm on business I take a plane or I drive.

No company I've ever worked for in my entire life would find the speed, network, frequency, and scheduling of Amtrak's long distance network to be acceptable. Not a single one.

My employers have put me on my choice of airline and secured whatever rental or company vehicle I needed and reimbursed whatever hotel and miscellaneous expenses resulted, but riding Amtrak was simply out of the question. To this day Amtrak still doesn't go anywhere near most of the places I'm likely to be needed and even when it does the timing never works out. Ever. That's not the way I want it; that's just the way it is.

Before Amtrak could be considered a serious competitor to any of the mega-airlines that remain they would need trains that ran double or triple the current speeds with a fleet and network size many times larger than what they have now. We all know that's not going to happen, probably ever, but at least not within our lifetimes.

It really depends on your location. As I mentioned, I do use it successfully from Pittsburgh to Chicago and back because it is purely overnight travel and I can avoid a hotel stay if I'm just there for a day. Amtrak drops me at my office door on the return trip.

My trips to NYC often include a jaunt up to New Haven, CT and the NEC is a no-brainer for that.

Amtrak isn't totally dead to business travel. I'm sure there are other segments that could be used if people took the time to look.

 

[Oldsmoboi]

and an overnight to NYC would work well for me also. With the Viewliners coming, it could even just be a second Pennsylvanian run. No new equipment other than what has already been ordered.

 

[CHamilton]

I know many business people who use the Cascades for business travel between Seattle and Portland. Frequency isn't bad, and speed is competitive with driving. Now they just have to solve the mudslide problem.

 

[Anderson]

Acc. to the Official Guide to the Railways, December 1956, the 20th Century left NYG at 6:00 PM and arrived at LaSalle Street Station a 8:45 AM (15:45 travel time accounting for the time change). The Commodore Vanderbilt (the second-tier train on the route, which had more stops) left NYG at 5:30 PM and arrived at LaSalle Street Station at 8:30 AM (16:00 travel time). Eastbound, the times were 4:45 PM/9:30 AM for the 20th Century and 4:00 PM/9:00 AM for the Vanderbilt, for the same travel times net of the time change.

As to how to do this: HSR in upstate NY, HSR in Michigan, and an agreement with Canada to run a train non-stop from Buffalo/Niagara to Detroit through southern Ontario, thereby avoiding most of the slower territory on the NYP-CHI run. It's not likely, but I think it's at least theoretically doable, and there is plenty of precedent for a train on such a route (the Niagara Rainbow ran such a route until the 1990s IIRC).

Serious question involving the NYP-PGH overnight idea: Would it be viable to run a through section from Boston with about a 5-6 PM departure? It would arrive in NYP around 9-10 PM, which is far enough off-peak that it would be akin to 66/67 sitting in the station such as it does. EB, the connection would be messier (this is always a headache: You've got more flexibility in the evening than in the morning), but it would add single-seat service along there (and to a non-trivial set of markets, too).

There is only one problem rerouting the NYP to CHI trains through Ontario. You lose all the passengers traffic on the trip through OH and IN. Those stops do generate some revenue.

The route from Niagara Falls to Detroit or Ann Arbor Michigan through Canada is the Twilight Limited proposal linked to in the Amtrak Proposed New Routes in 2001 thread. While it would not serve Erie PA, OH, or northern IN, that route would provide connections to the east for southern MI. The idea is not to replace or reroute the Lake Shore Limited, but to add another NYP-CHI LD train. Which will not happen anytime soon.

The benefit of the Twilight Limited route is that if NY state can achieve 110 mph service NYP to Buffalo (got $2 or $3 billion anyone?), upgrade the Buffalo to Niagara Falls segment to decent speeds, and a decent average speed is possible on a non-stop route through Canada, the route would bridge across two upgraded 110 mph corridors. On the other hand, if Ohio and Cleveland were to get behind the Midwest Regional Rail plan and build a 110 mph HrSR CHI-CLE corridor service with the projected goal of a 4 hour 20 minute trip time, NY state reduces NYP-BUF trip times by several hours, and some modest upgrades are made to the BUF-CLE segment, the LSL route would see serious reductions in total trip time. Enough that a day train along with an overnight train could be run over the route. But it is going to be a long wait for a 90 or 110 mph CHI-CLE corridor service.

The Michigan-area markets are not insubstantial, and I suspect that (as tends to be the case with these things) the choice between a bus transfer from Detroit to Toledo (generally at a bad hour) or a train to Chicago and then backtracking is suppressing the rail market in that area as well. Amtrak looked at re-routing the Lake Shore Limited via Detroit but decided against it.

Also, do remember that Canada isn't bound by the 79 MPH rule, and Via runs a lot in the region. There's a decent chance that you'd have virtually the entire NYP-CHI route with (non-curve non-bridge) speed limits of 90-110 MPH, which could get the average speed up in the 65 MPH range.

As to overnight business trips: I believe there is a market, and I believe that it is worth taking advantage of. Right now, the problem is a combination of bad timings (there's no major LD train that reliably arrives at its eastern terminus before noon...the Cap is closest at 12:40 PM per schedule, and often a bit after noon; after that, the Crescent's WAS arrival comes next) and reliability. The latter has been dealt with to a large extent (compared with the some years ago), though the reputation is still there; the former is going to take quite a bit of work, however. Network limits are also an issue, but there's not much of an issue of the train is going where you want to go. Also, do remember that part of the jam in the 1960s was that the railroads had no real pricing edge versus flying; the way airline costs are going, Amtrak is beginning to gain a pricing edge there, and in a lot of cases it can be easier to transfer from Amtrak to a local/commuter train and/or to get into town (witness the comments about LaGuardia-to-Manhattan, and then add in something like getting out somewhere that Metro North serves). Airfares are just getting worse and worse, and sooner or later the cost there is going to get to be an issue.

 

[Sky Pilot]

One area that I could see working as a businessman for a LD trip would be to have (resurrect?) sleeper car service from NPN to NYP/BOS. The 4:55 departure (66) is great for BOS although the NYP timing isn't very good. I can say that when I have meetings in DC, I often take this train, arrive in ALX around 8:30 PM and hit the Metro for my morning meetings, and return. There are hotels near ALX and I find it far easier than driving 3+ hours at 0-Dark:30 to make a morning meeting. With the imminent demise of AirTran at PHF this spring, non-stop service to BOS and LGA is going away (although Delta is picking up some service from ORF). But again, maybe it's me as a bit of a railfan, but I would find a sleeper from NPN to NYP that arrived at say 630 or 7AM far preferable to gettting up at 3:30 AM to get to ORF by 5AM for an early flight so I can then take an hour to get to Manhattan from JFK or LGA.

One other route I'd like to see is NPN to CHI via RVM, CHO and the balance of the Cardinal route.

Blue Skies ..

 

[jis]

According to the statistics that Amtrak puts out they serve more business and recreational travelers on the NEC than does the airlines. From BOS to WAS is about a 6 hour train trip but if you've ever flown from Logan to Dulles it can take that long with delays, waits on the tarmac and travel time to and from the airports. Amtrak allows one to travel as a gentleman not as an animal like you do on a plane. Even if the airlines are a alot faster overall I'll do anything to avoid dealing with the arrogant idiots that hav been recruited by the TSA to subjugate air passengers and go so low as to stip search grandmas. If big brother ever installs airline type security at the train stations then its car only time.

Actually Amtrak has a very small proportion of the business travel market between the end points BOS and WAS. Also it is quite clear that while quite unpleasant, the TSA experience is not quite so unacceptable to most business travellers as to have them choose other means for journeys that take more than about 4 hours or so by ground, as long as frequent air service is readily available. That unfortunately is the unpleasant truth.

 

[Anderson]

According to the statistics that Amtrak puts out they serve more business and recreational travelers on the NEC than does the airlines. From BOS to WAS is about a 6 hour train trip but if you've ever flown from Logan to Dulles it can take that long with delays, waits on the tarmac and travel time to and from the airports. Amtrak allows one to travel as a gentleman not as an animal like you do on a plane. Even if the airlines are a alot faster overall I'll do anything to avoid dealing with the arrogant idiots that hav been recruited by the TSA to subjugate air passengers and go so low as to stip search grandmas. If big brother ever installs airline type security at the train stations then its car only time.

Actually Amtrak has a very small proportion of the business travel market between the end points BOS and WAS. Also it is quite clear that while quite unpleasant, the TSA experience is not quite so unacceptable to most business travellers as to have them choose other means for journeys that take more than about 4 hours or so by ground, as long as frequent air service is readily available. That unfortunately is the unpleasant truth.

From what I'm gathering, that line is moving up, at least slightly. It used to be around three hours, and I think it's likely to keep moving.

Part of this is the TSA (who wants to miss their flight because someone in front of them in line wasn't prepared for security and held things up for 10 minutes unpacking a bag?) and part of it is airline-related troubles (be it cut frequencies, rising fares, or variable reliability), but that line has been moving at least somewhat.

You're right about it being low as far as endpoints go, but there are "internal" markets where those numbers are better (NHV-WAS, BOS-PHL, etc.) where the travel time is five hours or less. The seven hour (during the day) trip is a bit much. I'm left wondering how 66/67 would do at getting some of that business if the sleeper came back to it. NPN-BOS isn't a major market, but RVR-BOS and WAS-BOS are both shorter trips and later departures, as well as better arrival times southbound.

 

[jis]

In my own business travels, I would not use an overnight train for those trips. My preference would be early morning flight out and evening flight back. But that is just my preference, all else being equal. Another unfortunate truth is that a RT ticket by sleeper will most likely land up costing more than an air ticket specially between WAS and BOS. RVR is an interesting issue though since you can't do much there without a rental car, and if you must rent then might as well do so at an airport and drive there. Others could have other preferences. Also the fact that in flying I collect miles that I can use for free flights to anywhere in the world plays a role in that I must admit. OTOH, I always use the train between MET or NYP to BOS and of course MET to WAS. I do wish there was an earlier morning Acela towards Boston though. Also I tend to prefer the train to BOS if my meeting is in the downtown area or even in Needham. But if it is in Burlington MA, 9 times out of ten, if I take the train it runs out to be more convenient to lick up the car in Logan anyway, since one can completely avoid Boston traffic that way. And once you need to get to Logan, the choice between train and plane becomes that much harder to pin down one way or the other.

Similarly I'd always use train NYP - ALB, or SDY, but would be unlikely to us it for NYP Rochester or Buffalo for a business trip with the present service offering. In deed I'd almost prefer to drive to Rochester from my home in NJ.

In general when one is traveling for a day business trip to NY or Washington or Boston which have good local transit, it is easier to select train than when you are doing a day business trip to a city with not that convenient local transit. In those case mostly you have to jump through hoops to get a car at the train station, whereas one is easy to9 pick up at the airport in most cases.

 

[Anderson]

In my own business travels, I would not use an overnight train for those trips. My preference would be early morning flight out and evening flight back. But that is just my preference, all else being equal. Another unfortunate truth is that a RT ticket by sleeper will most likely land up costing more than an air ticket specially between WAS and BOS. RVR is an interesting issue though since you can't do much there without a rental car, and if you must rent then might as well do so at an airport and drive there. Others could have other preferences. Also the fact that in flying I collect miles that I can use for free flights to anywhere in the world plays a role in that I must admit. OTOH, I always use the train between MET or NYP to BOS and of course MET to WAS. I do wish there was an earlier morning Acela towards Boston though. Also I tend to prefer the train to BOS if my meeting is in the downtown area or even in Needham. But if it is in Burlington MA, 9 times out of ten, if I take the train it runs out to be more convenient to lick up the car in Logan anyway, since one can completely avoid Boston traffic that way. And once you need to get to Logan, the choice between train and plane becomes that much harder to pin down one way or the other.

Similarly I'd always use train NYP - ALB, or SDY, but would be unlikely to us it for NYP Rochester or Buffalo for a business trip with the present service offering. In deed I'd almost prefer to drive to Rochester from my home in NJ.

In general when one is traveling for a day business trip to NY or Washington or Boston which have good local transit, it is easier to select train than when you are doing a day business trip to a city with not that convenient local transit. In those case mostly you have to jump through hoops to get a car at the train station, whereas one is easy to9 pick up at the airport in most cases.

Well, it depends on whether the train stations have rental car desks. For example, Flagstaff has a Hertz desk while RVR does not (something that is actually a bit surprising). Philly actually has a Hertz desk (in, I believe, the same place it was when the Pennsy ran the terminal), as does WAS. With that said, I can also see issues with traffic in downtown.

The issue with the "early flight out, late flight back" situation is two-fold:

1) In some cases, those flights are vanishing or seeing their fares spike. Pittsburgh is an extreme case, yes, but once you end up in a non-hub/focus city market, those direct flight fares can spike pretty badly. What do you do in the case of a $500 round trip fare near the last minute (something that, while not common, I suspect will become increasingly common on those secondary routes)? I'm thinking of some places like Memphis and Cincinnati in particular: Pushing the CONO with a CHI-MEM consist, if OTP could be improved, might be worth a shot (witness the five extra coaches they dropped at Memphis over Thanksgiving), and set-out sleepers in Cincy combined with a slightly earlier Chicago time might do some wonders on the Cardinal WB. Then again, the Cardinal is just a pain to make work for all parts, and it's a shame that you couldn't have two trains...one aimed at Cincy-to-CHI/STL and another aimed at Cincy-to-the-east (possibly running via PGH instead?).

2) If the flight is extremely early/extremely late, that can cause a problem. For example, Southeast Virginia is served by three airports: Norfolk, Newport News, and Richmond. If I live in Norfolk and the "good" flight is in Richmond or vice-versa, that's close to two hours in the car each way. Even Williamsburg to either one is an hour (or more, in the case of Norfolk with bad traffic). In the meantime, there are a lot of airlines that are only going to serve one (or at most two) of the three.

As to the earlier Acela: I wouldn't be shocked if a 4:00 AM or 4:30 AM Acela worked its way into the picture with the Acela IIs (though I would be slightly surprised, there's probably a market for it due to the intermediate markets in New Haven and Philly); I also wouldn't be surprised if the evening schedule got extended by an hour or so. In both cases, it's not that I see massive endpoint markets...but I do see some room for a 5:00 or 5:30 PM departure from BOS that would hit Metropark and Philly, with DC being mostly an afterthought happening because of equipment storage/maintenance reasons more than marketing.

 

[Ryan]

With the imminent demise of AirTran at PHF this spring,

Really? I guess that's a casualty of the merger?

 

[Oldsmoboi]

Now see, I just got word that I have to travel to NYC on Monday. I need to be there for 9am Tuesday morning, so I have a hotel in the city Monday night. The Pennsylvanian would be fine for the trip up, but to come home Tuesday, I'd have to leave NYC at 10:50am. US airways wants about $383 to fly me up and back plus another $60 each way for a car from LGA to Mid-town, but the flight leaves PGH at 5:35am... no thanks. Checking Amtrak, I see that it is high(er) bucket eastbound at $110 and even higher bound at $137. Normally, this trip is $70 in low bucket.

Amtrak would have to charge $121.50 for a roomette each way before they equaled just the US Airways price.

$383 at US Airways RT.

$70 + $121.50 for a roomette each way or $383 rt for Amtrak

Low bucket roomettes from PGH to CHI are $96 and PGH to WAS are $88.

So Amtrak is leaving money on the table by not doing a second run with some Viewliners once they get delivered.

It is just about the lowest hanging fruit on the tree for increasing ridership even without the sleeping accommodations because it would increase the flexibility for travelers.

.... and so, I have a rental car from National and I'm driving it instead.

 

[Sky Pilot]

With the imminent demise of AirTran at PHF this spring,

Really? I guess that's a casualty of the merger?

Yes, it's a casualty of the merger with SWA. It's too bad because they did non-stops to BOS and LGA and often at good fares.

 

[Anderson]

One area that I could see working as a businessman for a LD trip would be to have (resurrect?) sleeper car service from NPN to NYP/BOS. The 4:55 departure (66) is great for BOS although the NYP timing isn't very good. I can say that when I have meetings in DC, I often take this train, arrive in ALX around 8:30 PM and hit the Metro for my morning meetings, and return. There are hotels near ALX and I find it far easier than driving 3+ hours at 0-Dark:30 to make a morning meeting. With the imminent demise of AirTran at PHF this spring, non-stop service to BOS and LGA is going away (although Delta is picking up some service from ORF). But again, maybe it's me as a bit of a railfan, but I would find a sleeper from NPN to NYP that arrived at say 630 or 7AM far preferable to gettting up at 3:30 AM to get to ORF by 5AM for an early flight so I can then take an hour to get to Manhattan from JFK or LGA.

One other route I'd like to see is NPN to CHI via RVM, CHO and the balance of the Cardinal route.

Blue Skies ..

1) I missed this post. AirTran is leaving? Honestly? There goes PHF's profitability. AirTran more or less saved them in the early part of the decade. Frontier only does super-LD stuff off the east coast (you can't book to, say, LaGuardia because they run through Denver), while Allegiant only flies to Orlando and Daytona. So AirTran leaving basically blows out any low fares (Delta and US Airways? Two legacies? Oh boy...). I think we can cue a dirge here for the airport's performance, since the one thing that had really been helping Newport News had been the relatively low fares (its average fares were about $50 lower than Norfolk or Richmond).

2) Nitpick: It's CVS, not CHO, but good guess.

3) This was actually an Amtrak route until the late 1970s: A leg of the James Whitcomb Riley went to Newport News. When that was discontinued, we got what ultimately became the NE Regional redirected in here. Mind you, this was years before I was born...

Now see, I just got word that I have to travel to NYC on Monday. I need to be there for 9am Tuesday morning, so I have a hotel in the city Monday night. The Pennsylvanian would be fine for the trip up, but to come home Tuesday, I'd have to leave NYC at 10:50am. US airways wants about $383 to fly me up and back plus another $60 each way for a car from LGA to Mid-town, but the flight leaves PGH at 5:35am... no thanks. Checking Amtrak, I see that it is high(er) bucket eastbound at $110 and even higher bound at $137. Normally, this trip is $70 in low bucket.

Amtrak would have to charge $121.50 for a roomette each way before they equaled just the US Airways price.

$383 at US Airways RT.

$70 + $121.50 for a roomette each way or $383 rt for Amtrak

Low bucket roomettes from PGH to CHI are $96 and PGH to WAS are $88.

So Amtrak is leaving money on the table by not doing a second run with some Viewliners once they get delivered.

It is just about the lowest hanging fruit on the tree for increasing ridership even without the sleeping accommodations because it would increase the flexibility for travelers.

.... and so, I have a rental car from National and I'm driving it instead.

Well, and with Amtrak, wouldn't you also come out ahead on both the rental car ($60) and any airport parking costs? Also, what would it cost to do the train to NYC and then to fly back? I know that's not ideal, but it's worth considering.

 

[afigg]

With the imminent demise of AirTran at PHF this spring,

Really? I guess that's a casualty of the merger?

Looking up the Newport News/Williamsburg airport (PHF) wikipedia entry, the airport started a major expansion project a few years ago and opened a new terminal, concourse A, in May, 2010 and is remodeling concourse B. In August, according to this news article, AirTran which has over 40% of the traffic at PHF, announced they were pulling out entirely. Sounds like PHF will be stuck with a mostly empty new concourse A and bills & bonds to pay off. Have not looked anything up about ticket prices, but it would not be surprising if the remaining major carriers there, Delta and US Airways Express, were to jack up their prices.

Another example of the airlines retrenching pattern. Similar to the news about Southwest dropping direct Philly-Pittsburgh flights and US Airways jacking up direct flight prices. With a lot of discussion about what it might mean for the Pennsylvanian. In this case, Newport News and Williamsburg, of course, are served by 2 daily Amtrak trains that connect to the NEC. Will there be a visible bump up in ridership in March, 2012 and afterward when AirTran pulls out of PHF? Or will most would-be PHF AirTran customers fly out of Norfolk airport instead?

 

[Anderson]

With the imminent demise of AirTran at PHF this spring,

Really? I guess that's a casualty of the merger?

Looking up the Newport News/Williamsburg airport (PHF) wikipedia entry, the airport started a major expansion project a few years ago and opened a new terminal, concourse A, in May, 2010 and is remodeling concourse B. In August, according to this news article, AirTran which has over 40% of the traffic at PHF, announced they were pulling out entirely. Sounds like PHF will be stuck with a mostly empty new concourse A and bills & bonds to pay off. Have not looked anything up about ticket prices, but it would not be surprising if the remaining major carriers there, Delta and US Airways Express, were to jack up their prices.

Another example of the airlines retrenching pattern. Similar to the news about Southwest dropping direct Philly-Pittsburgh flights and US Airways jacking up direct flight prices. With a lot of discussion about what it might mean for the Pennsylvanian. In this case, Newport News and Williamsburg, of course, are served by 2 daily Amtrak trains that connect to the NEC. Will there be a visible bump up in ridership in March, 2012 and afterward when AirTran pulls out of PHF? Or will most would-be PHF AirTran customers fly out of Norfolk airport instead?

I suspect it depends on the route. For NYC? 66/67 have such toxic times that it's not even funny. However, there's one funny silver lining in this: Richmond's fares are high enough that this is basically killing any time-to-station/airport advantages that Norfolk and Richmond's airports could boast for folks living further up the peninsula, meaning that even if those two departures don't cut it for a trip to New York, going to Richmond to catch the 6 AM Regional is definitely still in the picture. In the meantime, taking 66 north does work for Philly (although the return trip could use some help).

For BOS, the times are good, and as noted above, they're good for WAS (and presumably BAL) as well. It's just stations between PHL and PVD that really stink, which regrettably includes NYP. What is going to be of particular interest is how all of this starts to combine with that third train into the area.

 

[afigg]

Well, it depends on whether the train stations have rental car desks. For example, Flagstaff has a Hertz desk while RVR does not (something that is actually a bit surprising). Philly actually has a Hertz desk (in, I believe, the same place it was when the Pennsy ran the terminal), as does WAS. With that said, I can also see issues with traffic in downtown.

The question of rental car desks at or facilities next or near to train stations is a subject that comes up pretty often. For a train station to have a rental desk and facility requires that it have a large enough parking garage that they can set aside a controlled parking area for the rental cars. The station needs to have enough passenger traffic to justify a staffed car rental desk. Ideally a station should have at least 2 of the major car rental operators so people have a choice. The growth and push for intermodal stations will aid in providing more stations with car rental options.

The major stations on the NEC are covered with respect to car rental options as far as I know. Stamford CT, for example, has Hertz and Avis. But when I look at the Amtrak webpage for WAS, I don't see any mention of car rental options. And I know DC Union Station has car rental desks in the station. Amtrak should do a better job of publicizing car rental options to encourage business and leisure travelers. If they don't already, Amtrak should have people who work in the business development department with their assigned regions, work with the local station owners (if it is not Amtrak) to add car rental operators at all of the busier stations in the system.

When one looks at the rental car websites, they have a location box for Airport Code. Someday, perhaps, those will read airport or train station code!