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BTW, according to posts on railroad.net, 7 out of the 15 HHP-8s have already been retired. The HHP-8s may be gone before the last of the AEM-7DCs.
 
I was thinking about HHP-8 retirements; they're complicated by (a) the leasing arrangements and (b) the 6 owned by MARC but maintained by Amtrak. This makes it more difficult for Amtrak to completely rid itself of them. Amtrak has no interest in maintaining a small class with bad reliability and few spare parts, but there may be a pile sitting on a dead line as parts for MARC engines for the next couple of years.
 
Listen, Marc, I gotta proposal. We are going to take away those 6 awfully unreliable heaps of junk you use to break down on the Corridor. And then we are going to give you seven vastly more reliable units you can actually use to move trains. Deal?
 
Green Maned Lion said:
Listen, Marc, I gotta proposal. We are going to take away those 6 awfully unreliable heaps of junk you use to break down on the Corridor. And then we are going to give you seven vastly more reliable units you can actually use to move trains. Deal?
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The response from the Maryland Transit Administration will be sorry. not interested, we have placed an order for 10 MPI MPH-36PH diesel locomotives to replace our 10 electric locomotives (4 AEM-7s, 6 HHP-8s). According to a 2013 MARC viewgraph presentation on their then current long range plans, the $40 million contract for 10 diesels is to be completed in 2015. So the HHP-8s are likely to be gone from operational service anywhere on the NEC by mid to late 2015. I think it is a mistake by MARC to go all diesel, but this is an ACS-64 and Amtrak thread, so any lengthy discussions about MARC should really be in the commuter/transit forum.

The only operator that is interested in leasing a few AEM-7ACs is SEPTA, but those AEM-7ACs are apparently only for interim service to keep SEPTA's rush hour bomb trains running until 10 to 12 new electric locomotives can be ordered and delivered. SEPTA put out a request for "Expression of Interest for High-Speed Electric Locomotives" with bids due on July 7. I think the Siemens plant in Sacramento will be kept busy building Charger diesel locomotives and more electrics for SEPTA, along with LRVs for San Francisco Muni and very likely HSR trainsets for CHSRA in few years.
 
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I addition to the MdTA's (ill founded, IMO) plan to go all diesel, their AEM-7s are victims of a horribly botched, multi-year refurbishment by Amtrak that left them in such a state that they're not allowed in revenue service except in pairs (and had at least one aborted return to service when more problems popped up). Since one of them (4901) has already been retired, this means there's a single pair and a spare available for service.

No way in heck they're going to fall for a "trust us this time, these meatballs actually work!" from Amtrak, regardless of what state they're in.
 
RyanS said:
I addition to the MdTA's (ill founded, IMO) plan to go all diesel, their AEM-7s are victims of a horribly botched, multi-year refurbishment by Amtrak that left them in such a state that they're not allowed in revenue service except in pairs (and had at least one aborted return to service when more problems popped up). Since one of them (4901) has already been retired, this means there's a single pair and a spare available for service.

No way in heck they're going to fall for a "trust us this time, these meatballs actually work!" from Amtrak, regardless of what state they're in.
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This much is true. Well said.
 
The Amtrak Inspector General issued a report in September, 2013 with their review of the ACS-64 procurement and the management of it. I think this report has been overlooked, as it has multiple nuggets of information on the delivery schedule (as of September 2013), the RRIF loan and what the FRA is willing to allow the loan funds to be spent on, parts contracts for the existing equipment, lease issues driving the retirement order, the OIG recommendations, and so on.

The report: ASSET MANAGEMENT: Amtrak is Preparing to Operate and Maintain New Locomotives, but Several Risks to Fully Achieving Intended Benefits Exist. (2MB 24 page PDF). (The OIG could work on better titles for their reports).

A few excerpts from the OIG report below. Remember this report was issued in September when Amtrak was still testing the first several units and obviously still working out the plans. The scheduled overhauls of the AEM-7s and HHP-8s were dropped from the FY14 budget, but obviously the managers had to wait until they could confirm that the ACS-64s passed the early testing.

Siemens plans to deliver one locomotive every month starting in July 2013, and up to three locomotives every month from August 2014 through November 2015. The first of these units is scheduled to enter revenue service in October 2013, and all of the 62 electric locomotives that Amtrak currently operates on the Northeast Corridor are scheduled to be replaced by February 2016.
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Amtrak is financing the acquisition of these locomotives with a $563 million loan from the Federal Railroad Administration, which includes funds for facility construction, spare parts, program management, and contingencies. Based on Amtraks projected loan repayment schedule, the company will pay about $787 million for the units over the life of the loan after repaying the principal and interest. Amtrak will also pay credit risk premiums for each loan draw from the FRA.
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Plans to decommission locomotives have been delayed. As the ACS‐64s arrive, Amtrak plans to remove its existing locomotives from service and dispose of them in order to free up space and resources to accommodate the maintenance of the new units. In October 2012, Amtrak established a group that included personnel from the Mechanical, Procurement, and Finance departments to develop a sequence for retiring equipment to maximize cost savings and contain the cost of maintenance, overhauls, and parts procurements during the transition from old to new equipment. Additionally, the group considered the historic and projected reliability of each locomotive, the costs to take each locomotive out of service, and the financial impact of existing leases. Amtraks locomotive lease contracts require the company to return units to the lessor in operating condition, and the group prioritized its retirement sequence based on the leased status of units.

....

In the absence of decisions on the decommissioning sequence and disposal options, Amtrak has not finalized a schedule for retiring its current locomotives. Therefore, the company could spend more money than necessary maintaining its locomotive fleet. In particular, Amtrak:

Has spent or is planning to spend about $21 million for fiscal years 2013 - 2016 to overhaul 36 locomotives that will be decommissioned in this timeframe. Without a retirement schedule, Amtrak risks unnecessarily overhauling locomotives that could be removed from service shortly after the overhaul is completed.

Extended its spare parts supply agreement for its existing locomotives from June 2013 to June 2018 although it plans to retire all of these locomotives by February 2016. The agreement can be terminated before 2018, but Amtrak will have to pay the suppliers termination costs.

.....
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Plans to obtain and manage spare parts have been delayed. According to Amtrak officials, as of July 1, 2013, Amtrak had not yet purchased some critical spare parts for the ACS‐64s. As with the shop improvements that Amtrak wants, the company requested about $28 million from FRA to procure spare parts, but FRA officials told us that they had yet to define with Amtrak the expenses that are allowable under their agreement. To obtain spare parts, officials from the Mechanical and Procurement & Material Management departments are analyzing these options:

Continuing to pursue funding spare parts with the loan from FRA. Amtrak has already ordered initial sets of the long‐lead components to ensure that it had replacement parts on hand if some locomotives are damaged or long‐lead parts fail early in their operation. However, Amtrak has not yet assessed how it will pay for these spares if FRA rejects its funding request.

Entering into a vendor‐managed inventory arrangement with Siemens similar to the one it has for its existing electric locomotives. These arrangements may result in Amtrak paying Siemens management and storage fees in addition to the cost of spare parts. FRA has said it will not fund this arrangement, and Amtrak has not yet identified how it could fund this option.

Buying consumable spare parts, as needed, on the open market or from Siemens. This option will limit Amtraks ability to take advantage of reduced prices obtained from advanced purchases and economies of scale achieved through larger orders. Amtrak has not yet decided how it will fund the procurement of parts in this manner.
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afigg said:
The response from the Maryland Transit Administration will be sorry. not interested, we have placed an order for 10 MPI MPH-36PH diesel locomotives to replace our 10 electric locomotives (4 AEM-7s, 6 HHP-8s). According to a 2013 MARC viewgraph presentation on their then current long range plans, the $40 million contract for 10 diesels is to be completed in 2015.
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Seriously? When I read that presentation, I thought that was the date for *signing* the contract, not the date when delivery was complete. I had no idea the locomotives were already under construction.
Are you actually sure that's right? MARC signed an extension of the contract with Amtrak to maintain MARC's locomotives for the Penn Line at Amtrak's shops until 2018. Is Amtrak really agreeing to maintain MARC's MPI diesels?

So the HHP-8s are likely to be gone from operational service anywhere on the NEC by mid to late 2015. I think it is a mistake by MARC to go all diesel,
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Doesn't everyone? It's obviously a mistake. Of course, it's not a mistake which will haunt them forever; if they change their mind, MARC can always expand diesel service on the other lines (or sell diesels to startup operators) and buy/lease some electrics later.
But anyway, the interesting point is that MARC's HHP-8s will be out of service by 2015 (or at least 2018, if there's been some misreading of the documents). Horribly, Amtrak may have to buy parts from them in order to repair Amtrak's HHP-8s...

The HHP-8 lease arrangements seem to be the gift that keeps on hurting. (Thomas Downs seems to have made a really bad deal when he was CEO.) Being required to return HHP-8s to Bombardier in operating condition may be completely impossible, given the spare parts shortage and the number which have already broken down. It is perhaps most likely that Bombardier will agree to accept them in less-than-working order or barely-working order, either for a fee or for good will. The sooner Amtrak can get out of these leases the better. The leases may also determine whether the Acelas have an "afterlife" after the Acela IIs arrive, or not; if they're still under lease or Amtrak has bought them by then, Amtrak will probably keep using them, but if the lease is expiring around the right time they'll probably be returned ASAP.
 
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neroden said:
Seriously? When I read that presentation, I thought that was the date for *signing* the contract, not the date when delivery was complete. I had no idea the locomotives were already under construction.

Are you actually sure that's right? MARC signed an extension of the contract with Amtrak to maintain MARC's locomotives for the Penn Line at Amtrak's shops until 2018. Is Amtrak really agreeing to maintain MARC's MPI diesels?

......

But anyway, the interesting point is that MARC's HHP-8s will be out of service by 2015 (or at least 2018, if there's been some misreading of the documents). Horribly, Amtrak may have to buy parts from them in order to repair Amtrak's HHP-8s...

The HHP-8 lease arrangements seem to be the gift that keeps on hurting. (Thomas Downs seems to have made a really bad deal when he was CEO.) Being required to return HHP-8s to Bombardier in operating condition may be completely impossible, given the spare parts shortage and the number which have already broken down. It is perhaps most likely that Bombardier will agree to accept them in less-than-working order or barely-working order, either for a fee or for good will. The sooner Amtrak can get out of these leases the better. The leases may also determine whether the Acelas have an "afterlife" after the Acela IIs arrive, or not; if they're still under lease or Amtrak has bought them by then, Amtrak will probably keep using them, but if the lease is expiring around the right time they'll probably be returned ASAP.
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Found the MD DOT FY14-19 program outlay documents. The spending for the 10 new MPI diesels are $27M in FY14, $10M in FY15, and then winds down with $5M in FY16, $2M in FY17. MD's fiscal year starts on July 1, so we are already into the state FY15. There is also a note that "HHP locomotive overhaul has been cancelled and replaced by the GP-39 Repower Locomotives project...". If MARC had previously signed a contract extension for their HHP-8s, they canceled it. Bottom line, the MARC HHP-8s may see revenue service into CY 2016, but that is likely to be as long they last.

As for the Amtrak HHP-8s, remember the leases are for only 15 locomotives brought ~15 years ago. Don't know offhand what Amtrak paid for the HHP-8s, but I will guess estimate $4 to $5 million each in circa 2000 dollars. After this many years of payments, the penalty for terminating the lease early may be a couple of million each. Yes, its money that it would be preferred to not have to throw away, but against a $563 million RRIF loan for 70 new locomotives & parts & facilities which will save millions over the years in maintenance, operating costs and be more reliable, any lease penalty payments are part of the cost of the upgrade.

I think the fate of the HHP-8s is a strong clue as to the fate of the Acelas as the new HSR trainsets enter service. Once enough new HSR trainsets are in revenue service, the Acelas will begin to be either mothballed or retired. They cost too much to maintain to use on anything other than the high value NEC prime service.
 
FWIW, what I've read from people claiming to work at Amtrak is that the HHP-8s are *much* more of a pain to maintain than the Acelas, largely due to far fewer spare parts.
 
Acela150 said:
neroden said:
FWIW, what I've read from people claiming to work at Amtrak is that the HHP-8s are *much* more of a pain to maintain than the Acelas, largely due to far fewer spare parts.
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That and keep in mind that their is a dedicated team that maintains the AE sets. HHP's don't have a dedicated team...
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In the OIG report on the ACS-64, the maintenance plan for the ACS-64s is mentioned:

"In addition, company officials said that Amtrak plans to institute a maintenance program on the ACS‐64s similar to the program it instituted for the Acela Express service in order to achieve greater reliability among the new locomotives than it currently experiences with the existing electric locomotive fleet. This program is an efficient method for meeting the periodic regulatory requirements for locomotive inspection and maintenance, and Amtrak plans to apply the program to each ACS‐64 as it enters revenue service."

There is more on the maintenance plans in the report, but I think we can look forward to a time when electric engine en-route failures are a rare occurrence for the Regionals, Keystones, and the other Amtrak trains on the NEC. Of course, there will be still catenary & power problems, weather problems, movable bridges getting stuck, traffic congestion, passenger issues, and so on causing delays.
 

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