A View from Abroad..... 1st Long distance Amtrak trip

[NeilM]

Hi, been lurking around and thought I would just offer my thoughts on a trip I took over the past 2 weeks.

Flew out to SF, spent a few days there before taking the CZ from Emeryville to Chicago on the 18th May.

I have worked on the railway in the UK since leaving school 27 years ago, love train travel and was really looking forward to this trip....

But having read some of the remarks on here about the food and service, was just a bit nervous of how bad it could be!

But........ It was fine!

It took a bit of getting use to the fact I was going to be on a train for 50 hours+ , something its a bit hard to do in Europe!, the Roomette looked so small, but was fine for 1 person (think 2 people might be a bit of a struggle) and the bed was comfy and it was fantastic lying in bed watching the world fly by from the top deck of the sleeper.

The scenery was just stunning, I met some really fun, amazing people in the diner and in my sleeper coach, and the food? Well, it was ok. Had worse meals, had better meals. Sometimes though a meal is more than just the food, location, company, scenery and a few bottles of Sam Adams just help things along! Even the Breakfast Scramble tasted a lot better than it looked! (Who is Bob Evans, anyway?!)

The sleeper attendant,Isaac, was funny, helpful and a great asset to any company, and like me had done 27 years of railway/railroad service, us old timers need to stick together! The dining car crew led by Gregory worked hard and were helpful and pleasant.

The downsides? Well, at time it felt as if the train was going to derail, I have never felt track so rough in all my days as I did on that trip, but I guess thats not Amtrak's fault. Looking at some of the trackwork,it seems as though doing a long lasting quality job is not high on the agenda....... Probably cheaper in the long run too.

I did finish up on a run on the LSL to NYC, which was ok, but the diner crew seemed disinterested and chaotic, not badly so, but the difference between the 2 crews was noticeable. The sleeper attendant on the LSL, David, was fine though.The trip from Albany to NYC was well worth the ticket price alone!

The one thing that stands out with trains like the CZ is that it is actually an asset to your country and if marketed properly could do very well, but the fact is that starving that (and the whole Amtrak system of funds) is not the way to ensure its success. The fact I enjoyed it so much is testimony to the people who work to make it happen, I suppose its a railway persons job to rise above the poor conditions and questionable "Management" and keep the job rolling!

So, I have got the bug now, whats next to do? Any suggestions?!

Some photos of my trip are here, feel free to look, comment on, correct, or just criticize!!

http://50031.fotopic.net/

Thanks for reading!

Neil

London UK

 

[MrFSS]

Even the Breakfast Scramble tasted a lot better than it looked! (Who is Bob Evans, anyway?!)

See this LINK.

 

[George Harris]

Well, at time it felt as if the train was going to derail, I have never felt track so rough in all my days as I did on that trip,

This is a fairly common reaction from many European visitors. It is particularly aggravated by being in a superliner where the arm of pendelum you are swinging on is longer than in a single level coach. As far as ride quality for bounce, sway, and general roughness are concerned, "comfortable" is way inside the limits of safety. Track conditions in the US are regualted by a set of Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) Track Safety Standards. They are exactly that: safety standards. A lot of them are component related also, that is tie and rail conditions which are things you won't feel in ride quality.

The US companies generally try to achieve maximum life from all components in track, and do pay close attention to being inside the safety standards. For the most part the track structure is significantly stronger than that in Europe, even when it does not necessarily look like it. I am talking main lines here. Lightly used low speed track tend to be lighter in materials because the heavier stuff is not needed. For the main lines, in the US, rail is commonly 132 to 136 lb/yd (66 to 68 kg/h) as opposed to the BS113A (56 kg/m) or the 54 to 60 kg/m stuff used on the continent. This is also combined with closely spaced sleepers, and our concrete ones are considerably stronger than the European versions.

Generally single level cars are around 15 tons to the axle, the superliners I believe to be in the 18 to 20 ton range, and the passenger engines around 25 tons or so. When you see the coal trains, the double stack containers, and the freight locos, these are in the 30 to 35 ton per alxe range, so even with their higher speed, the passenger equipment is never the greatest force on the track.

 

[NeilM]

Well, at time it felt as if the train was going to derail, I have never felt track so rough in all my days as I did on that trip,

This is a fairly common reaction from many European visitors. It is particularly aggravated by being in a superliner where the arm of pendelum you are swinging on is longer than in a single level coach. As far as ride quality for bounce, sway, and general roughness are concerned, "comfortable" is way inside the limits of safety. Track conditions in the US are regualted by a set of Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) Track Safety Standards. They are exactly that: safety standards. A lot of them are component related also, that is tie and rail conditions which are things you won't feel in ride quality.

The US companies generally try to achieve maximum life from all components in track, and do pay close attention to being inside the safety standards. For the most part the track structure is significantly stronger than that in Europe, even when it does not necessarily look like it. I am talking main lines here. Lightly used low speed track tend to be lighter in materials because the heavier stuff is not needed. For the main lines, in the US, rail is commonly 132 to 136 lb/yd (66 to 68 kg/h) as opposed to the BS113A (56 kg/m) or the 54 to 60 kg/m stuff used on the continent. This is also combined with closely spaced sleepers, and our concrete ones are considerably stronger than the European versions.

Generally single level cars are around 15 tons to the axle, the superliners I believe to be in the 18 to 20 ton range, and the passenger engines around 25 tons or so. When you see the coal trains, the double stack containers, and the freight locos, these are in the 30 to 35 ton per alxe range, so even with their higher speed, the passenger equipment is never the greatest force on the track.

I assumed the rail and sleepers must be man enough to deal with the heavy axle loadings of the freight trains and there must be some standards to work to, but the ballast seemed minimal in places and there were some alarming dips and bangs that would probably stop the job over here. Do these lines get tamped at all?

Ironically the worse ride was in the single deck coaches from Chicago to NYC!

 

[George Harris]

I assumed the rail and sleepers must be man enough to deal with the heavy axle loadings of the freight trains and there must be some standards to work to, but the ballast seemed minimal in places and there were some alarming dips and bangs that would probably stop the job over here. Do these lines get tamped at all?Ironically the worse ride was in the single deck coaches from Chicago to NYC!

Of course the tracks get tamped regularly. There are also some major differences in set up of vehicle suspensions. It would take quite a few paragraphs to give even a very simplified discussion of the differences. While, other than weight and clearance problems which are complete show-stoppers, American equipment could quite happily run on UK and European track, the reverse is not true. European equipment would be beat to pieces in short order. In general, American equipment is designed to be very tolerant of relatively poor conditions of line and cross level. European equipment is not. These differences are in operating terms more of an issue in successful long term use of European designed diesel trainsets in the US than the also very real differences in strength standards. If they were run, they would probably become "shop queens" in short order.

As to ballast, when I look at pictures of European track, I ask two questions:

1. Why use such large size rocks?

2. Why waste so much rock in huge piled up shoulders?

Also, clean ballast is nice, but why be so fanatic about it?

Actually, I can answer the last and No. 2 fairly easily.

For the last question: Generally American ballast functions better than it looks. So long as it provides cushiioning and good drainage it tends to be left alone. It can be somewhat uneven in its support, and with wood this causes no problems. The European concrete tie designs will not tolerate the uneven support that is common in American track. This is a sad experience, since many of the early concrete tie designs in the US were European in origin and failed miserably. Better attention to ballast condition and large increase in strength of the tie overcame that. Still, there are a lot of people that regard wood as the best material and concrete only for solving specific problems in specific areas.

2. The huge piled up shoulders: This is a peculiarity resulting from what I regard as an error in concept in setting the zero stress temperature in welded rail. Generally in Europe welded rail is set to be stress free at a temperature about 10 deg C above its average year round temperature. This results in it being in compression for at least part of every day over 2/3 to 3/4 of the year, and sometimes with quite high compressive forces. Rail in compression is subject to buckling. Wide ballast shoulders help, but studies done in the US have decided that the heaped shoulder is pointless. The use of cable troughs along the outside of the track also help lateral restraint. However, all this is unnecessary if you simply RAISE THE ZERO STRESS TEMPERATURE. The current American practice is to stretch the rail so that it is stress free at a relatively high temperature. This reduces the time that the rail is in compression to only the hotter days of the year and reduces the magnitude of the comressive forces at those times that it is in compression. This reduces the tendency to buckle. Careful attention to weld quality and use of hgh strength steel reduces the problem with low temperature pull-aparts. Also, pull aparts announce themselves to the signal system. Buckled track does not.

George

 

[Everydaymatters]

Yes, the roomettes are small. I have traveled alone in them and I have traveled with one other person, either my sister or a grandchild.

It's a lot more fun traveling with someone and sharing the experience. Also, it's less expensive if you can split the price of the roomette.

Betty

 

[had8ley]

Generally single level cars are around 15 tons to the axle, the superliners I believe to be in the 18 to 20 ton range, and the passenger engines around 25 tons or so. When you see the coal trains, the double stack containers, and the freight locos, these are in the 30 to 35 ton per alxe range, so even with their higher speed, the passenger equipment is never the greatest force on the track.

George;

I don't have the Amtrak roster for engine weights but a GP-38 weighs approximately 250,000 lbs or 125 tons. The comfort cabs are a lot heavier at an average of 400,000 pounds. I'm sure the Genesis engines, equipped with a huge generator, are well in excess of 25 tons.

 

[Sam Damon]

By sheer dumb luck I happen to have a photo of the builder's decal of a P42DC handy.

The decal reads, "Weight 268/268" which I suppose means 268,000 pounds?

 

[AlanB]

By sheer dumb luck I happen to have a photo of the builder's decal of a P42DC handy.
The decal reads, "Weight 268/268" which I suppose means 268,000 pounds?

Actually a P42 weighs in at 268,650 LBS, both the P40 and P32AC-DM weigh in at 254,000.

 

[had8ley]

By sheer dumb luck I happen to have a photo of the builder's decal of a P42DC handy.

The decal reads, "Weight 268/268" which I suppose means 268,000 pounds?

Actually a P42 weighs in at 268,650 LBS, both the P40 and P32AC-DM weigh in at 254,000.

BINGO! You're both right. The builder's plate goes to the nearest thousand pounds. The first weight is the weight on drivers. This is how an engineer gets paid. The second weight indicates the total weight of the locomotive. I believe the two system weight was from steam engine days. Some tenders were articulated to the engines but did not produce tractive motor force so they were not counted into the first figure but were part of the gross weight; the second figure.

 

[George Harris]

By sheer dumb luck I happen to have a photo of the builder's decal of a P42DC handy.

The decal reads, "Weight 268/268" which I suppose means 268,000 pounds?

Actually a P42 weighs in at 268,650 LBS, both the P40 and P32AC-DM weigh in at 254,000.

BINGO! You're both right. The builder's plate goes to the nearest thousand pounds. The first weight is the weight on drivers. This is how an engineer gets paid. The second weight indicates the total weight of the locomotive. I believe the two system weight was from steam engine days. Some tenders were articulated to the engines but did not produce tractive motor force so they were not counted into the first figure but were part of the gross weight; the second figure.

Had8ley, you are part way there. For a 4-8-4, it would only be the weight on the eight driving wheels that was a factor in pay. The tender never entered into it. Well, booster equipped, maybe.

268,650 lbs / 4 axle = 67,162 lbs/axle = 33.6 tons/axle. I stand corrected.

Actually, for the European writer, I ought to convert things to metric tons of 1,000 kilograms each, and that would be 30.5 tonnes on each axle. The English also used long tons which were more than 2,000 lbs each, 2240 I think, but am not sure. This fell in with their use of "stones" "hundredweight" and other strange units.

George

 

[Guest]

I suggest either the Empire Builder (CHI-SEATTLE) or THE Canadian, from Vancouver to Toronto. Just stunning, both trips. The quality of the Canadian is much higher---and a bit more expensive, though you get 3 days/nights as opposed to 2. Get a berth if you do the Canadian. Best train trip I ever took.

 

[had8ley]

By sheer dumb luck I happen to have a photo of the builder's decal of a P42DC handy.

The decal reads, "Weight 268/268" which I suppose means 268,000 pounds?

Actually a P42 weighs in at 268,650 LBS, both the P40 and P32AC-DM weigh in at 254,000.

Had8ley, you are part way there. For a 4-8-4, it would only be the weight on the eight driving wheels that was a factor in pay. The tender never entered into it. Well, booster equipped, maybe.

268,650 lbs / 4 axle = 67,162 lbs/axle = 33.6 tons/axle. I stand corrected.

Actually, for the European writer, I ought to convert things to metric tons of 1,000 kilograms each, and that would be 30.5 tonnes on each axle. The English also used long tons which were more than 2,000 lbs each, 2240 I think, but am not sure. This fell in with their use of "stones" "hundredweight" and other strange units.

George

OK....but aren't the Genessis engines four axles? I think Amtrak learned their lesson with the six axle SDP-45's that kept derailing in curves and that many of the freight roads put a speed restriction on that particular unit. So, if we have a four axle engine on Amtrak today it would be about 65 tons, or better on each axle. I know we're getting off the thread topic and I'll let it go at that.

 

[AlanB]

Had8ley, you are part way there. For a 4-8-4, it would only be the weight on the eight driving wheels that was a factor in pay. The tender never entered into it. Well, booster equipped, maybe.

268,650 lbs / 4 axle = 67,162 lbs/axle = 33.6 tons/axle. I stand corrected.

Actually, for the European writer, I ought to convert things to metric tons of 1,000 kilograms each, and that would be 30.5 tonnes on each axle. The English also used long tons which were more than 2,000 lbs each, 2240 I think, but am not sure. This fell in with their use of "stones" "hundredweight" and other strange units.

George

OK....but aren't the Genessis engines four axles? I think Amtrak learned their lesson with the six axle SDP-45's that kept derailing in curves and that many of the freight roads put a speed restriction on that particular unit. So, if we have a four axle engine on Amtrak today it would be about 65 tons, or better on each axle. I know we're getting off the thread topic and I'll let it go at that.

Last time I looked they were 4 axle units.

 

[caravanman]

I think it's a shame that us Europeans can't voice an honest opinion on the quality of the ride without opening a discussion about heavy trains!. I am sure it is as safe to ride trains in America as anywhere else in the world, but it sure feels rough as **** sometimes!

May I extend my own greeting to NeilM, I was a Secondman at Stratford Loco in east London about half a lifetime ago!

Ed B)

 

[George Harris]

I think it's a shame that us Europeans can't voice an honest opinion on the quality of the ride without opening a discussion about heavy trains!. I am sure it is as safe to ride trains in America as anywhere else in the world, but it sure feels rough as **** sometimes!May I extend my own greeting to NeilM, I was a Secondman at Stratford Loco in east London about half a lifetime ago!

Ed B)

Huh? If there were any put downs in here I missed them. Certainly did not intend any of what I said to be. Simply trying to explain the whys and wherefores behind some of the differences. I would dearly love to see a lot spent to upgrade tracks for speed and smoothness in the US, but at this point, without a huge increase in the money spent, such is not the case.

George

 

[Amtrak Watcher]

For George Harris... How does soemone "stretch" a rail?

 

[Guest_Amtrak_flyer_*]

Coast Starlight LA to Seattle in the winter, the views of the Pacific ocean and the moutains filled with snow and waterfalls in southern Oregon dont get any better (and the only train with the parlour car).

 

[had8ley]

For George Harris... How does soemone "stretch" a rail?

I'm not George but I can tell you how it is done. With welded (or ribbon rail as some call it) you can have continuous stretches of 1/4 mile or more. During the cold months the steel contracts and breaks the connection to the other length of rail. By heating the rail you "stretch" it back to where you can fit the bolts and angle bars that hold the track together. In south Louisiana we use bagasse, (yes, that's the real name) the by-product of sugar cane grinding and diesel fuel. I have seen a six inch stripped joint fixed in less than 30 minutes using this technique to heat the rail. Of course, in more severe climates there might have to be more drastic methods to heat up or "stretch" the rail. Hope this helps.

 

[NeilM]

I think it's a shame that us Europeans can't voice an honest opinion on the quality of the ride without opening a discussion about heavy trains!. I am sure it is as safe to ride trains in America as anywhere else in the world, but it sure feels rough as **** sometimes!May I extend my own greeting to NeilM, I was a Secondman at Stratford Loco in east London about half a lifetime ago!

Ed B)

Hello fellow railway bloke!

I wasnt looking to start an intercontinental war over track quality, I expected some odd riding what with the double decker sleepers and a mainly freight railway,and it was better than I thought it would be, but I was alarmed at the number of 'severe' jolts, bangs, and lurches that in any railway operation tell you something aint right......

Still, I will probably come back for some more, I really enjoyed it!

 

[njulian]

Thank you for your report! In my limited experience opinion, a very beautiful ride is from LA up to San Fran. The long ride by the ocean is stunning. I love that route.

 

[NeilM]

I suggest either the Empire Builder (CHI-SEATTLE) or THE Canadian, from Vancouver to Toronto. Just stunning, both trips. The quality of the Canadian is much higher---and a bit more expensive, though you get 3 days/nights as opposed to 2. Get a berth if you do the Canadian. Best train trip I ever took.

Was looking at combining those 2, spending a few days in Seattle in between. I would imagine the Canadian bit is spectacular in winter?

 

[AlanB]

I would imagine the Canadian bit is spectacular in winter?

I think that the Canadian would be spectacular no matter what time of the year.

Personally I wish that I had both the time and the money to ride it in each of the 4 seasons.

 

[George Harris]

For George Harris... How does soemone "stretch" a rail?

You grab one end and I grab the other, and we both pull.

Lay it out, note the rail temperature at the time you lay it down. Make marks at intervals on rail base to tieplates so you know where it is. Put on anchors in the area where you don't want it to move. Clamp a big stout hydraulic puller to the free end you want to move and the adjacent rail end. You better have made your rail base to tieplate marks on this rail also because you have got to know where the movement is.

You calculate how much to pull the rail so that it will be stress free at the temperature and then crank up the hydraulics and pull. Run along the rail wit a big shaker and vibrate it. Check to see if the stretch is spread evenly along the rail. Clamp anchors.

 

[had8ley]

For George Harris... How does soemone "stretch" a rail?

You grab one end and I grab the other, and we both pull.

Lay it out, note the rail temperature at the time you lay it down. Make marks at intervals on rail base to tieplates so you know where it is. Put on anchors in the area where you don't want it to move. Clamp a big stout hydraulic puller to the free end you want to move and the adjacent rail end. You better have made your rail base to tieplate marks on this rail also because you have got to know where the movement is.

You calculate how much to pull the rail so that it will be stress free at the temperature and then crank up the hydraulics and pull. Run along the rail wit a big shaker and vibrate it. Check to see if the stretch is spread evenly along the rail. Clamp anchors.

George;

That sure sounds like the proper way to do stretch rail. I've never seen it done that way. Maybe somebody needs to educate the UP section gangs.