16 year old riding alone

[neroden]

The TSA is completely nuts about ID checks (which are utterly useless garbage), but we haven't managed to get this mistaken conflation of "ID" with "security" out of people's heads yet.

Hint for those who still don't get it: the most dangerous Soviet spies the US ever faced had CIA-issued and FBI-issued IDs. ID checks are a solution looking for a problem.

 

[HAL]

The TSA is completely nuts about ID checks (which are utterly useless garbage), but we haven't managed to get this mistaken conflation of "ID" with "security" out of people's heads yet.

Hint for those who still don't get it: the most dangerous Soviet spies the US ever faced had CIA-issued and FBI-issued IDs. ID checks are a solution looking for a problem.

Security is "See Something, Say Something", not ID checks.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

It also involves not responding to Say Something in a way that makes people feel like an idiot when it turns out to be a false alarm.

 

[Eris]

So, in any case, regarding the actual question asked in the original post two years ago as well as the new post yesterday, Amtrak's ID requirements are pretty clear:

http://www.amtrak.com/passenger-identification

Amtrak customers 18 years of age and older must produce valid photo identification when:

• Obtaining, exchanging or refunding tickets
• Storing baggage at stations
• Checking baggage
• Sending Amtrak Express shipments
• Onboard trains, in response to a request by an Amtrak employee

Please note that unaccompanied children 16 - 17 must also produce valid photo ID when purchasing tickets, obtaining travel documents and checking baggage.

(My link goes on to describe exactly what acceptable ID for those 18+ might consist of).

A 16 year old who has managed to purchase and print/save a ticket and is not checking baggage does not need to carry or show photo ID.

That I or anyone might recommend having ID (and I and others do recommend that) is irrelevant to the lack of requirement to have it for a 16 or 17 year old while traveling alone or accompanied on Amtrak.

 

[VentureForth]

I was sitting in the Savannah station the other day and the station agents were very clear to every passenger to have their ticket and ID out for inspection while boarding the train.

I don't think that ID checks are so much to prevent a bomb, but to ensure that the conductor's manifest is accurate.

 

[Ispolkom]

At the Minot station, on the other hand, I didn't show ID or ticket when I boarded my train. I just told the SCA, "We're the Ispolkoms. We're in bedroom E." Couldn't be easier.

 

[crescent2]

To the teen traveler: I'm a better-safe-than-sorry type, so I would suggest you bring your school ID, if you have one, or birth certificate, although you probably won't be asked for it.

My friend and I were asked to show our ID at least once on our recent trip, but I don't recall where. IIRC this was the first time I've ever had to show ID on Amtrak. Showing my ID is not a problem for me and I don't understand why anyone would mind doing so. Tickets already have names on them, so no big deal imo.

Interestingly to us, the attendant who stored our luggage for the day in Chicago said that plans are in the works for adding additional security checks. I don't know if this is just for Chicago or system wide. He said that about 20% (?!) of passengers going through CHI are carrying drugs or drug money, and that several times bags or suitcases of money have been abandoned in the station because "drug runners recognize DEA even in plain clothes." Being small town girls, my friend and I found those numbers surprising, but what do we know. We did see several officers with drug dogs walking around in different areas of the station. The attendant was talking with the man ahead of us in line, not to us, so we did not ask him any questions.

My friend was pleasantly surprised that boarding Amtrak was as easy as it was.

 

[neroden]

I was sitting in the Savannah station the other day and the station agents were very clear to every passenger to have their ticket and ID out for inspection while boarding the train.

I don't think that ID checks are so much to prevent a bomb, but to ensure that the conductor's manifest is accurate.

The NTSB really wants to know who's on a train in case it crashes; they've made that very clear. This is kind of dopey, but there you are.

 

[neroden]

To the teen traveler: I'm a better-safe-than-sorry type, so I would suggest you bring your school ID, if you have one, or birth certificate, although you probably won't be asked for it.

My friend and I were asked to show our ID at least once on our recent trip, but I don't recall where. IIRC this was the first time I've ever had to show ID on Amtrak. Showing my ID is not a problem for me and I don't understand why anyone would mind doing so.

Government-issued ID can be difficult or expensive to get for many people. Particularly if anything has happened to the county office which issued their birth certificate -- or if they never had a birth certificate.

ID requirements basically punish people whose records were lost by previous governments. That's the problem.

 

[neroden]

Interestingly to us, the attendant who stored our luggage for the day in Chicago said that plans are in the works for adding additional security checks. I don't know if this is just for Chicago or system wide. He said that about 20% (?!) of passengers going through CHI are carrying drugs or drug money, and that several times bags or suitcases of money have been abandoned in the station because "drug runners recognize DEA even in plain clothes."

*sigh* Hopefully we'll legalize drugs soon and get rid of this utter nonsense. Nothing wrong with carrying merchandise or cash on the train, just as long as the stuff isn't being used on the train.

 

[crescent2]

To the teen traveler: I'm a better-safe-than-sorry type, so I would suggest you bring your school ID, if you have one, or birth certificate, although you probably won't be asked for it.

My friend and I were asked to show our ID at least once on our recent trip, but I don't recall where. IIRC this was the first time I've ever had to show ID on Amtrak. Showing my ID is not a problem for me and I don't understand why anyone would mind doing so.

Government-issued ID can be difficult or expensive to get for many people. Particularly if anything has happened to the county office which issued their birth certificate -- or if they never had a birth certificate.

ID requirements basically punish people whose records were lost by previous governments. That's the problem.

I'm not sure I personally know any adult who doesn't have an ID, or at least I've never heard anyone complain. The examples you give are exceptions. Most people's birth records aren't lost and most people already have a birth certificate or could easily obtain a copy. I don't think ID is that hard or expensive to get in my state but I haven't checked the requirements. Regardless, I don't know how adults function without an ID in today's world. I have to show my ID to go to a doctor, vote, and sometimes when writing a check, as examples. And I have no problem with any of those. I'm not trying to use another person's insurance or medical records, I'm not trying to commit voter fraud, and I'm not forging a check. But some people might, and do, so there you go. Showing ID is just not a big deal to me.

I also had to be fingerprinted and background checked to obtain a teaching certificate, and I had no problem with that, either. I even had to provide references and consent to a background check to volunteer in one of my own church's youth programs, despite my valid teaching certificate. Still no big deal.

I understand the need for these things because unfortunately there are some dishonest, and worse, people in the world. And yes, I understand that some people obtain fake IDs and/or beat the system, but most people don't. Just my take on it, and YMMV as they say.

Edit to add: In major Amtrak crashes, ascertaining the number and identity of passengers has been a big problem and rectifying that a recommendation of the NTSB. If checking ID helps with that, it can save lives. It's important to have a correct manifest, and I think VF may be right that that's the primary reason for the ID checks on Amtrak.

 

[neroden]

IDs don't prove anything much. First, they're a bad method of verifying identity. (Apart from fake IDs, and the fact that people change both their names and their appearances, there's the famous example of the CIA official who walked in and out of Langley for years with a photo of his dog on his ID.)

Second, verifying identity is usually not what you're actually trying to do.

Drivers' licenses are designed to demonstrate that a particular person (found driving a car) has passed a driving exam. This makes sense, and a card with a photo and an ID number (which can be looked up in the state database) can actually be used for this purpose.

Most uses of ID don't make sense. And checking ID on Amtrak is in that category; it doesn't make sense. It's not addressing any actual problem, it's just creating problems. If there were a big issue with people fraudulently presenting other people's tickets, then ID might be useful to address that. There isn't.

ID is great for verifying that you have someone who is certified by the government to go by the name of Mr. Aldrich Ames. But why do you care? It's not remotely useful for telling whether you actually have to worry about Mr. Aldrich Ames.

 

[Ryan]

You also great overestimate the ease with which you can get an ID.

Sure, it's easy for you and your friends.

It's nowhere near that easy for someone working two jobs, no car and and hour long bus ride to get to an ID card office during working hours.

Want to require IDs every where? Sure, no problem. Don't know what problem you'll solve with them, but if that's your thing, go for it.

Just make sure that it's easy for *everyone* to actually get an ID before you do it.

 

[jebr]

He said that about 20% (?!) of passengers going through CHI are carrying drugs or drug money, and that several times bags or suitcases of money have been abandoned in the station because "drug runners recognize DEA even in plain clothes." Being small town girls, my friend and I found those numbers surprising, but what do we know.

Those numbers don't even pass the smell test. If there were 20% of people smuggling drugs/drug money, they'd be checking every train that came into and left Chicago, because 20% would be an insanely high number. The attendant seems to be mistaken.

Unless, I suppose, they're counting legal drugs as "drugs," though then the number seems too low.

 

[Ryan]

Yeah, that seems ridiculously high to me as well.

I've also never had to show ID at the doctors, either.

 

[crescent2]

Ryan, I'm not wanting to "require IDs everywhere." I'm just saying that having to show my ID on my recent Amtrak trip is no big deal to me, nor are the other times I'm required to show it. For the three examples I gave, the purpose is to ascertain that I'm the person I claim to be, and Aldrich Ames notwithstanding, for the ordinary person a picture ID usually accomplishes that and serves a legitimate purpose as long as there are dishonest people in the world.

Things that inconvenience me don't get under my skin as long as I can see even a bit of the reasoning behind them. I don't even have to always agree with them. I guess I'm just an easy going type most of the time.

If it's true that it's extremely difficult to obtain ID, then changes need to be made to the procedure for that. Fix what needs fixing.

Ryan, for several years I've had to show ID at the doctor's office, and at every hospital and rehab facility (quite a few) that my husband was in the past few years I had to let them copy his photo ID along with his insurance cards. Obviously it's different for you.

As I said, this isn't a big deal to me one way or the other, so I'm done.

Jebr-- That's what we thought, too. I'm just reporting what he said, nothing more. That's what made it so interesting.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

The secret to effectively installing a fascist or police state governed is to slowly require more checks and burdens upon the citizenship that are "no big deal".

Any more of this poppycock and I'm moving to the homeland.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Favorite demand from Police State Officials:"Papers please!"

Just remember All of the 911 Terrorist High Jackers had Official Government ID and Visas and were known to the FBI and various Intelligence Agencies! How did that work out?

Conservatives used to be against the carrying of Government IDs, now they

Want everyone to have them for everything! Someone please help me understand how this makes us safer???

 

[crescent2]

OK, I said I was done, but the tomatoes coming through my screen are splattering my shirt. This isn't about ID's actually; it's about reprimanding me for things I didn't say.

If these posts are intended for me (apparently, as I'm the poster previous to them), once again I'm not advocating "papers" and ID's for everything. I just said I had no problem showing my ID on Amtrak (the topic of the thread), or pulling out my drivers license to show I'm me (so I don't receive the meds meant for the other person with my name, or whatever). And, btw, the doctor, hospital, and retailer taking my check and wanting to see my ID aren't any type of government.

When some of you get a bee in your bonnet, it seems to negatively affect your reading comprehension.

Where did I say that showing an ID keeps anyone safe from terrorists?? I agree with you on that. Stop putting words in my mouth; heaven knows I'm wordy enough on my own! If I went to the trouble of planning to commit terrorism, I'd probably have a fake ID or just not care, period.

I really am done this time. Pretend I said whatever you want to and have at it.

 

[BCL]

Birth records are a lousy means of proving identity. It's sort of a chicken and egg thing. In some states is possible for anyone to get an official, unrestricted copy of a birth record. It used to be possible in California, but there were documented cases of people who went to get a random record and used the birth certificate to assume a new identity. Birth certificates are still public records in California, but one must demonstrate belonging to a certain class in order to get an unrestricted one. The ones still available to anyone are labeled as "informational" such that they can't be used to establish identity. Then there was the mess that was Puerto Rico's birth certificate crisis. The situation got so bad that the territory invalidated any certificate issued before a certain date and only ones issued after that date were valid. The basic idea was that the practices that allowed such rampant fraud to happen (schools and others requiring that a full copy of a birth certificate be kept on file for every participant) were no longer allowed. Many schools were targeted for burglary, where the only items stolen were the birth certificates on file. These were then sold on the black market, where the Hispanic names were quite useful for for illegal immigrants from Latin America to establish a new life as a US citizen and a back story of why they have an accent or don't speak much English.

Quite a few people don't have photo ID. It used to be possible to bank with only a credit card/SSN card, and utility bill. Quite a few people established jobs before there was an I-9 requirement. Many retired people have given up driving and no longer have a photo ID. They may still get their pension or SS income via direct deposit and deal with only ATM cards or personal checks. It may seem strange, but it's very much possible to function in this country without a photo ID.

And one of the odder details is that a lot of people have ended up turning in their driver licenses because they were suspended, have no other form of photo ID, and don't bother to get a non-DL photo ID.

It's actually possible to pass I-9 employment eligibility without a photo ID. It can be done with a voter registration card (most don't have a photo) and a birth certificate or SSN card.

 

[NW cannonball]

OK, I said I was done, but the tomatoes coming through my screen are splattering my shirt. This isn't about ID's actually; it's about reprimanding me for things I didn't say.

If these posts are intended for me (apparently, as I'm the poster previous to them), once again I'm not advocating "papers" and ID's for everything. I just said I had no problem showing my ID on Amtrak (the topic of the thread), or pulling out my drivers license to show I'm me (so I don't receive the meds meant for the other person with my name, or whatever). And, btw, the doctor, hospital, and retailer taking my check and wanting to see my ID aren't any type of government.

When some of you get a bee in your bonnet, it seems to negatively affect your reading comprehension.

Where did I say that showing an ID keeps anyone safe from terrorists?? I agree with you on that. Stop putting words in my mouth; heaven knows I'm wordy enough on my own! If I went to the trouble of planning to commit terrorism, I'd probably have a fake ID or just not care, period.

I really am done this time. Pretend I said whatever you want to and have at it.

Not to worry -- posters often mix up the upthread posts and answer more than one without attribution, or with misleading quotes.

I am pretty sure you only said that you haven't been hassled my the more or less reasonable requests for photo ID that you've gotten.

Me neither --

But when the front desk at my dentist's office asks me for photo ID for the third time in 3 months, and I've been visiting the same dentist for 25 years - I do get a bit snarky -- I say "You think someone might be impersonating me to get a "root canal" --"

Any how crescent2 -- I don't think you said some of the dumb things that it seems to you that people here think you think.

Does that make sense? -- Dunno.

As for the value of "photo ID" in general -- there will be some discussion -- most of it on serious security-oriented discussion places - not likely here.

But I might join in on the techy aspects. And I won't cite you.

 

[NW cannonball]

Hey you guys, this is my first time riding the Amtrak trains and I would like to know if I bought the ticket from the Amtrak app, do I just show them my e-ticket ( or whatever it's called) or do I need a physical ticket? Also do I need ID? I don't have my Liscence nor permit ( dumb move I know) but I do have my social security card and a debit card if that would help? Thanks, Jake

It's been a week since you posted - lots of replies and internal debates about ID rules and such -- if you've followed all that (unlikely) the bottom line is --

You have the e-ticket scannable thing - right?

You can ride - the train conductor scans it - you get on board. No problem.

IF (very unlikely) you are asked for ID on the train -- just show what you have - the e-ticket SS card etc -- a school ID or a library card (yup a library card may be governmet-issued (or or least quango-issued)).

The worst they can do us put you off the train at your destination.

 

[Ryan]

Nobody is putting words in your mouth. Nobody is claiming that you've said things you haven't. If a part of a post doesn't address something you've said, than it likely isn't addressed to you.

My reading comprehension is just fine, thanks.

 

[neroden]

Edit to add: In major Amtrak crashes, ascertaining the number and identity of passengers has been a big problem and rectifying that a recommendation of the NTSB. If checking ID helps with that, it can save lives.

It doesn't really help with that, either. It helps a little bit with assauging the emotional upset of the rescuers and family members who don't *know* whether there were additional people on the train or not, by giving them a false sense of certainty.
It doesn't save lives, though. I suppose it could save the life of a rescuer if it prevented a rescuer from going into a dangerous area to search for people who may be missing based on "everyone being accounted for"; even that is unlikely, as some people will always just walk away from the crash without telling anyone where they're going. But ID madness could equally well leave someone to die because they were mistakenly thought to not be on the train based on an over-reliance on manifests.

As usual, ID is a solution looking for a problem. I'm not sure why the NTSB has been so obsessed with it. Accountant's mentality, I guess.

 

[JayPea]

This past February when my drivers' license expired I wanted to apply for an enhanced driver's license. In order to do so I had to have amongst other things a state-issued birth certificate. They didn't accept the one I have that was issued by the hospital. So I had to shell out 32 bucks for an official one. Turns out my name on the state issued certificate was spelled differently than what was on the one from the hospital. No wonder I'm perpetually befuddled; for 54 years I'd been going by the wrong name! :wacko: Since I'd been going by what was spelled on the hospital certificate I just filed for a change of name on the state certificate. And in order to do THAT I needed two more forms of ID, only one of which I had. I finally got a print out from my county's elections board showing I'm a registered voter in lieu of a voter registration card. I washed my card through the washing machine eons ago and don't need one as Washington is vote by mail. All this hassle so I can get into Canada and ride the Canadian some time. I hope it's worth it!