Silver Star stuck for more than 12 hours

Apparently the Diner on train 91 developed some problem with one of its axles, and was held up short of Richmond for over 12 hours.

See http://www.nbc12.com/story/22779975/amtrak-passengers-free-after-being-stuck-for-14-hours

Of course if this was an airline flight a certain group of folks here would be all over it. I am sure the response to this particular transgression on part of Amtrak would produce a much more muted response, if not an outright brigade of defense justifying such as something out of Amtrak's control or such.

:angry: This jis: No Excuse for this Fiasco! Is this any way to run a Railroad?12 Hours to resolve an Equipment Problem is Outrageous! Pizza or Sandwiches could have been ordered to feed the Pax and Crew! This points out the need to Expedite the New Car Order with perhaps the Diners being given preference over the Viewliners and the Dorm/Bag Cars! The Heritage Diners and Bag Cars belong in Museums and on Private Land Cruise Trains (after rehab/Repairs)Not in Service on LD Trains!

**Edited: :blush: took out the comment about Cutting out the diner cause I didnt read the PR Flacks Staement! But as was said, surely the Diner could have been Drug somewhere Slowly and Cutout quicker than in 12 Hours time! This is Poor Judgment on the part of the Conductor, Dispatcher, RR Suits and Amtrak Management! Someone needs some re-training in Crisis Managment or a New Job!

Amtrak Spokesperson Kimberly Woods said:

The Dining Car couldn't be moved or cut out at the scene, ...

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jimhudson said:

The Diner should have been Cut Out and ...

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I guess not.

Not surprising - I was on one of the silvers a few months back and ate lunch in the Diner, aside from the fairly ok food, I felt like I was on a train museum roller-coaster.

Big fat lie they could not drop the dinner.

Sure leaving a car on main line would be a issue.

Sure drop the hotel power to the coach while the engine ran around to hook them and pull them away from the dinner and then running around again to rehook them from the front would be a issue. But to say we could not, is a big lie.

Also does the sliver trains run with two engines now. Would be a lot of work, but drop the lead engine run it around to the rear and pull the coaches off. 5min no HEP to unhook the lead engine, 5 min no HEP to hook the rear of the train. 5 more min no HEP to hook the train back together with out the dinner. Another and the last 5 min to hook the lead engine back to the train.

Sure you need a two tracks and several switch in the area. Big pain, but not impossible.

Oh the comment about poor information, one thinks the people who communicate problem were outside trying to deal with it. Also does the silvers have a short crew district there. I see that as a problem too. Crews running out of hours.

Bad Amtrak.

Cut back on your extra board and a simple issues becomes a 12-14 hour nightmare to deal with.

I'm trying to figure out what was so wrong with this wheel that they couldn't drag it 3 miles to Richmond. Sure 5 mph and the conductor riding the vestibule closet to the wheel to make sure things were ok but that to me is what needed to be done. Of course I don't know what was really wrong with the wheel but it seems to me 3 miles of dragging a wheel at slow speed would have been a better solution than sitting on a mainline for 12 hours. (Better for the passengers, and better for CSX.)

Where was Mr. President, Joe Boardman, when all this was going on?

Can't anyone at Amtrak make a decision on an issue such as this knowing the type of bad publicity it is going to generate.

A full explanation of why it took so long to get this resolved would be a good move by Amtrak's senior mangement. i just can't believe that for over 12 hours a member of Amtrak's senior management could not figure out a way to move the train into Richmond with or w/o the diner, cut it out, order food for the passengers, and send the train on its way. Maybe they thought the train would fix itself...it is inexcusable that passengers have to put up w/such incompetance. Part of being a manager is to make decisions when problems occur to correct the problem. What a joke of a company!

Just-Thinking-51 said:

Big fat lie they could not drop the dinner.
Sure leaving a car on main line would be a issue.

Sure drop the hotel power to the coach while the engine ran around to hook them and pull them away from the dinner and then running around again to rehook them from the front would be a issue. But to say we could not, is a big lie.

Also does the sliver trains run with two engines now. Would be a lot of work, but drop the lead engine run it around to the rear and pull the coaches off. 5min no HEP to unhook the lead engine, 5 min no HEP to hook the rear of the train. 5 more min no HEP to hook the train back together with out the dinner. Another and the last 5 min to hook the lead engine back to the train.

Sure you need a two tracks and several switch in the area. Big pain, but not impossible.

Oh the comment about poor information, one thinks the people who communicate problem were outside trying to deal with it. Also does the silvers have a short crew district there. I see that as a problem too. Crews running out of hours.

Bad Amtrak.

Cut back on your extra board and a simple issues becomes a 12-14 hour nightmare to deal with.

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What he said! There is ALWAYS a "way", but no one has the BALLS to make decisions like that, or won't.

One other thing to add to my previous post...doesn't Amtrak management know they are playing right into the hands of that d**k John Mica by letting this to happen. Although it might be interesting if during a hearing on Amtrak's cost of hamburgers, pop, pizza (pick your Amtrak menu item) that Boardman would be asked about this and be forced to explain why this occurred and why the paying customers were made to sit 12 hours.

Also the train did have a cafe car on it, so a diner was not necessary for the remainder of the trip. Sure it would have been an inconvenience, and the cafe would have needed to be restocked somewhere between Richmond and Florida, but that would have been better than the decision that was made.

Didn't the airlines get sued over this very issue of passengers being stranded for long hours? It took Congress to pass legislation providing for very severe fines. I do not understand why Amtrak did not bring up buses, at least, to transport passengers to the next station. I think it was only a couple of miles to Richmond, a full service station.

I mean it was not like they were stuck in a blizzard.

RichardK said:

Didn't the airlines get sued over this very issue of passengers being stranded for long hours? It took Congress to pass legislation providing for very severe fines. I do not understand why Amtrak did not bring up buses, at least, to transport passengers to the next station. I think it was only a couple of miles to Richmond, a full service station.
I mean it was not like they were stuck in a blizzard. Geez!

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There are several better solutions they could have utilized, including the several Amtrak trains that passed the stopped train and could have been utilized to transfer passengers, or even just used as a replacement train to Florida...better than sitting for 12 hours...

It must have been pretty depressing watching the Silver Meteor pass by and not stopping to help?? It does seem Amtrak dropped the ball big time on this and the bad publicity is definitely not something Amtrak needed either. How long did it take to take a new diner from Washington down to Richmond? Does seem like they could have moved everyone into the front of the train and uncoupled and moved everyone who wanted to stay at the Richmond station until help could arrive.?/

OBS said:

There are several better solutions they could have utilized, including the several Amtrak trains that passed the stopped train and could have been utilized to transfer passengers, or even just used as a replacement train to Florida...better than sitting for 12 hours...

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I thought Amtrak doesn't want passengers getting off a train, when not at a station. Possibly because such could be unsafe? I would guess that the stranded train would be on a siding, and the good train (passing by) would stop on the mainline adjacent to it, for what ever time it would take to transfer all the passengers and their luggage over, assuming they had enough room (open seats) for all the extra passengers. I assume that would mean that both trains would need to be at 50% capacity or less.

Also, I am not all that sure that Amtrak has a full replacement consist sitting around, available to be used as a replacement train to Florida.

Rescue via cross train transfer is a well known and practiced art on the NEC, having experienced it several times. The transfer needs to get the passengers to the next station at least so as to get them released from the "prison". I have been in a rescue from an Acela which conked out two miles out of Trenton. The rescue train was a deadheading NJT Arrow EMU set. All that it did was get us to Trenton. From there Amtrak arranged to get everyone on a bunch of later trains and on their way.

It would have been nice if they had been able to rescue the folks from 91 even in an SRO condition, the few miles to RVR, and then figure out what arrangements to make for them. I am surprised that they did not do that.

I can understand that this would be a much more difficult proposition if they were sitting out by Denmark say, but a few miles out of RVR on the Washington side?

Railroad Bill said:

It must have been pretty depressing watching the Silver Meteor pass by and not stopping to help?? It does seem Amtrak dropped the ball big time on this and the bad publicity is definitely not something Amtrak needed either. How long did it take to take a new diner from Washington down to Richmond? Does seem like they could have moved everyone into the front of the train and uncoupled and moved everyone who wanted to stay at the Richmond station until help could arrive.?/

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The replacement diner car would have to come down from NYP and Sunnyside Yard. There is no reason for Amtrak to keep a single level diner car, whether a Heritage or Amfleet II diner-light, at WAS.
There must be more to the story and the reasons Amtrak handled the problem this way than we are getting. Perhaps CSX refused to allow Amtrak to break the consist and leave the diner car on the track for a engine and crew to retrieve later. Breaking the consist and offloading everyone at RVR would swamp the station and could lead to a chaotic situation. People leaving the station and getting a cab to the airport but not telling Amtrak, etc.

They could have at least let the passengers going to stops in VA, NC that are also served by the Meteor offload to the Meteor in a train to train transfer. OTOH, letting a few passengers get off the train while the rest have to stay onboard could lead to a unruly crowd. It certainly appears that this situation was poorly handled, but we will see if a follow-up explanation and mea culpa is forthcoming. There is also the question of whether the bad axle should have been detected and either fixed or a replacement diner swapped at Sunnyside Yard before the Silver Star was sent to NYP.

I agree w/ the previous post...I am sure we are not getting the full story as to what happened. Are there any members out their, that do have the reason or reasons, as to why Amtrak did what they did? Any Amtrak employees?

From a PR point a view a press release w/the reason this happened, and more importantly what steps are being taken to prevent this from happening again, would be positive. I know these diners are old and new ones are hopefully on the way, and this could be included in the press release. Amtrak does not need any bad publicity right now given what is going on in Congress. The company really needs to be focused on their customers to generate as much support as possible...especially the customers who ride the LD trains.

afigg said:

They could have at least let the passengers going to stops in VA, NC that are also served by the Meteor offload to the Meteor in a train to train transfer. OTOH, letting a few passengers get off the train while the rest have to stay onboard could lead to a unruly crowd.

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Again, on the NEC they do this sort of thing quite regularly when rescues take place. The last time I got rescued (or not actually) was when there was a trespasser hit outside Bristol PA. Two cross train transfers across a bridge plate moved about 2/3rds of the riders from the stalled train and got them on their way. Then the train was released as the third rescue train came along side. At which point they did not do any further transfer and just had the released train carry on with its remaining passengers to its destination about two hours behind schedule.

I agree with all the frustration and criticism expressed here, and it is well warranted. Sadly Amtrak has become a typical government agency where its employees at most levels are performing only what is required to keep their jobs, having learned long ago that making decisions and taking control are career limiting. Privately run railroads were such a pleasure to ride 50+ years ago.

I would have much rather remained comfortably on board rather than have to dead wheel in a station or high school gym. I'd rather be on this train any day than on the UA 747 that was trapped for several hours after the OZ 214 crash.

And yes I imagine the CSX had a lot to say on what Amtrak could and could not do.

Does anyone have a clue what was actually wrong with the diner? On train orders I read that "there was a wheel on the diner with so much metal buildup that the brakes would not release" and the official amtrak press says "The dining car developed axle problems that disabled the train 2 miles north of the Staples Mill Road Station in Richmond"

It seems like something truly unusual happened if the crew didn't feel like it was safe to drag it to Richmond. Dragging a car with sticking brakes 2 or 3 miles at slow speeds would not have been the end of the world... the crew must have thought the axle was in serious condition.

OlympianHiawatha said:

I would have much rather remained comfortably on board rather than have to dead wheel in a station or high school gym. I'd rather be on this train any day than on the UA 747 that was trapped for several hours after the OZ 214 crash.

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It all depends on the circumstances. If I was just going to RVR, I'd rather that I was not on board comfortable or otherwise (if say HEP had failed). Even otherwise I;d prefer to try my luck at alternatives at RVR instead of sitting twiddling my thumbs for the next 14 hours.
And between being stuck in a train for over 12 hours vs. being stuck in a 747 for two or three hours? No contest. I'd pick the 747 every time. But then again I do love planes almost as much as trains, and a 747 is one of my favorites). So the primary factor there would be the amount of time stuck not moving.

TVRM610 said:

It seems like something truly unusual happened if the crew didn't feel like it was safe to drag it to Richmond. Dragging a car with sticking brakes 2 or 3 miles at slow speeds would not have been the end of the world... the crew must have thought the axle was in serious condition.

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What does it take to dismantle a brake assembly for a truck?
This reminds me, many years back on a journey from Bombay to Calcutta in India (about 60 miles from Bhusaval for those that might know where that is), pulled by one of those magnificent WP Class Steams (see my avatar) the engine threw a connecting rod and got disabled. The engine driver proceeded to dismantle the connecting rods while the fireman climbed a telegraph pole to call for a helper engine. Another WP showed up in an hour or so. Meanwhile they had managed to dismantle the mess of connecting rods freeing up the wheels from the piston shaft. They just hooked up the rescue engine and we were off on our way! I was truly impressed!

It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall hearing the conversation between CSX and Amtrak about this one. CSX should have been all over Amtrak about tying up their main line. Whoever was behind the long term sitting out in the sun, it was most likely NOT CSX.

jis said:

OlympianHiawatha said:

I would have much rather remained comfortably on board rather than have to dead wheel in a station or high school gym. I'd rather be on this train any day than on the UA 747 that was trapped for several hours after the OZ 214 crash.

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It all depends on the circumstances. If I was just going to RVR, I'd rather that I was not on board comfortable or otherwise (if say HEP had failed). Even otherwise I;d prefer to try my luck at alternatives at RVR instead of sitting twiddling my thumbs for the next 14 hours.

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That's certainly true. I'm always grateful to be allowed options, even if I don't exercise them.

I'm grateful that last month the conductors weren't so rule-bound, when things went pear-shaped on the Coast Starlight. Twice when we were stopped for an extended time on the Inside Gateway the conductors allowed everyone to climb down, walk around, and, of course, smoke. When we were stuck in Westwood for several hours people were encouraged to wander around town, though listening for the train whistle. I well understand, though, that letting passengers wander around the right-of-way of a branch line out in dark territory on the other side of the country is something different from doing the same on the CSX mainline perilously close to Amtrak headquarters.

In a roomette or bedroom I wouldnt mind the extra 12 hours.

Pass through some of the southern towns in daylight instead of night.

Probably get a full refund or credit voucher also....

Not a bad deal in sleeper...coach probably not that fun...

Meat Puppet said:

In a roomette or bedroom I wouldnt mind the extra 12 hours.Pass through some of the southern towns in daylight instead of night.

Probably get a full refund or credit voucher also....

Not a bad deal in sleeper...coach probably not that fun...

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BINGO! Build a nice nest and relax with the Scanner and plan your next Voucher trip I don't know how long the Diner stayed with the train or if Sleeper pax were allowed to pass through it to the Lounge but at least you can get up and walk around, use the toilet or whatever. Of course with Scanner in hand you'd have OBS chasing you down for updates.