Amtrak Proposed New Routes (in 2001)

I was at my parents' house over Christmas and found an Amtrak Travel Planner magazine from 2001. In it there were a couple pages that touted the new Acela (Express, Regional & Commuter) service as well as the new Pacific Surfliner. There are also descriptions of routes no longer around such as the Twilight Shoreliner and the Three Rivers with it's Heritage Sleepers. What was of particular interest to me was the 'planned Amtrak routes' that were advertised, but of which hardly any of them came to be:

* Boston to Portland, ME (unnamed in the magazine but the only route I could find that actually began service)

* The Skyline Connection - Chicago to Philadelphia via Toledo, Cleveland, Pittsburg, Johnstown & Harrisburg with proposed extension to New York (followed the same route as the Pennsylvanian at the time)

* A branch of the Silver Service between Jacksonville and West Palm Beach via Daytona Beach & Cape Canaveral

* The Crescent Star - Follows the route of the Crescent from New York to Meridian, MS then to Fort Worth via Jackson, Shreveport and Dallas

* Extension of the Texas Eagle from San Antonio to Monterrey, Mexico via Laredo

Does anyone have any specifics as to what became of these proposals, and why most of them never got off the ground?

Thanks & Happy New Year!!

We actually just had a discussion about this a few weeks ago:

-The FEC line (Jacksonville to West Palm Beach, and ultimately Miami) is still "in the works": There's a problem with liability distribution in Florida as things stand.

-The Aztec Eagle never really made sense from what I can tell, and most of these lines were aimed at picking up freight contracts. With that said, I could see some logic behind a train to Mexico City if Mexico ever settles out.

-The Crescent Star never quite got the needed political traction, and I think the estimates were that it would lose money to boot.

-The Downeaster (Boston-Portland) was an exception to all of this, since Maine and Massachusetts (IIRC) were "paying for the party", so to speak.

-Amtrak doesn't have the equipment to run the Skyline Connection, and I'm not sure if the demand is/was there for it.

Here's a list of all the planned services:

Link

Note that the reasoning for most services includes 'new mail and express' something. That was pretty much the reason most of these routes fell through. A few of them, I must say, were pretty good ideas though.

NY Penn said:

Here's a list of all the planned services:

Link

Note that the reasoning for most services includes 'new mail and express' something. That was pretty much the reason most of these routes fell through. A few of them, I must say, were pretty good ideas though.

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I agree... I especially like the Crescent split at Meridian.

The Skyline connection could end up coming to fruition via the through car service between the Pennsylvanian and Cap. Ltd.

Im looking forward to that service starting and hope I'll be able to book a roomette PGH to NYP and back.

Oldsmoboi said:

The Skyline connection could end up coming to fruition via the through car service between the Pennsylvanian and Cap. Ltd.

Im looking forward to that service starting and hope I'll be able to book a roomette PGH to NYP and back.

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Yes and no. One of the points behind the Skyline Connection was the daylight times towards the middle of the route, which didn't happen even with four Chicago-East Coast trains at the time (The LSL, the Cap, the Pennsylvanian, and the Three Rivers).

Anderson said:

Oldsmoboi said:

The Skyline connection could end up coming to fruition via the through car service between the Pennsylvanian and Cap. Ltd.

Im looking forward to that service starting and hope I'll be able to book a roomette PGH to NYP and back.

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Yes and no. One of the points behind the Skyline Connection was the daylight times towards the middle of the route, which didn't happen even with four Chicago-East Coast trains at the time (The LSL, the Cap, the Pennsylvanian, and the Three Rivers).

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and Card!

Ok, we were at five and Warrington wanted to go to seven (there was also the Twilight Limited). Sorry, I tend to omit the Card given that its routing is something like 20 hours slower than the other CHI-East Coast rrains.

Anderson said:

-The Aztec Eagle (1) never really made sense from what I can tell, and most of these lines were aimed at picking up freight contracts. With that said, I could see some logic behind a train to Mexico City (2) if Mexico ever settles out.

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(1) Financial sense? (2) Settles the drug war?

Anderson said:

-The Crescent Star never quite got the needed political traction, and I think the estimates were that it would lose money to boot.

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I thought we already put to rest the idea that Amtrak should (or even could) make money?

Anderson said:

-The Downeaster (Boston-Portland) was an exception to all of this, since Maine and Massachusetts (IIRC) were "paying for the party", so to speak.

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As more and more federal budget cuts are likely to be forthcoming (Romney has apparently been quoted as promising another half trillion in funding cuts) one-off purple state trains like the Downeaster may eventually become the rule rather than the exception.

I know I've mentioned this years ago, but I had the privilege of riding a train from Zacatecas, Mexico to Nuevo Laredo back in March of 1991. Our group actually thought that the next year we could take the train from Longview, TX to Zacatecas. That year, Mexico pulled all their passenger service.

You never appreciate what you have until you lose it.

10 years later, I lived in Greenville, TX. Then I learned the prospect of the Crescent Star which would have been a one seat ride to my in laws in North Carolina.

In the last 20 years I've seen Amtrak disintegrate while promising expansion. I really think that the loss of the USPS contracts hurt the most.

Anderson said:

Oldsmoboi said:

The Skyline connection could end up coming to fruition via the through car service between the Pennsylvanian and Cap. Ltd.

Im looking forward to that service starting and hope I'll be able to book a roomette PGH to NYP and back.

Click to expand...

Yes and no. One of the points behind the Skyline Connection was the daylight times towards the middle of the route, which didn't happen even with four Chicago-East Coast trains at the time (The LSL, the Cap, the Pennsylvanian, and the Three Rivers).

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Actually, when the Pennsylvanian went to Chicago, it did provide daylight times in the middle of the route (Ohio/Pittsburgh). It was the endpoint times that absolutely sucked.

What I fail to understnd is why the USPS pulled out of Amtrak or why perhaps Amtrak dumped them. Its common knowledge that railroad transportation is the most economical way to transport freight. The USPS needs cost savings and Amtrak needs revenue.

Follow on question - what does the USPS do with the mail that used to travel on the train? Truck or airplane?

dlagrua said:

Its common knowledge that railroad transportation is the most economical way to transport freight.

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In terms of total cost this is generally true, but in terms of distributed cost this is often incorrect. Unlike a unique one-off passenger rail service, parcel truck carriers can purchase and/or lease their fleets and materials at commodity prices and add additional capacity quickly and easily. They can hire from and return drivers to a large pool of available labor as needed. In addition they are only required to pay a trivial amount toward the building and upkeep of the roads and highways upon which they travel. In addition, they can run anytime day or night without need to schedule their services with any other authority and will have the benefit of taxpayer funded maintenance services immediately addressing anything from snow to floods to landslides to hurricane damage at no additional cost to them. If the roads get too congested billions more in taxpayer subsidies will be spent making those roads ever larger without regard to factors such as cost and efficiency.

Crescent Star, Skyline Connection and Aztec Eagle were all part of Warrington's "put freight on passenger trains" plan that cost more than it generated in revenue, needlessly delayed passengers and pissed off the freight railroads. Gunn put an end to it and also canceled the Postal Service contracts.

Planning for the Florida FEC routing is still ongoing and we may actually see this within the next few years. Planning, funding and starting new passenger train routes takes years.

Downaster is probably the template for most future services. State or local governments help fund the service.

MikefromCrete said:

Crescent Star, Skyline Connection and Aztec Eagle were all part of Warrington's "put freight on passenger trains" plan that cost more than it generated in revenue, needlessly delayed passengers and pissed off the freight railroads. Gunn put an end to it and also canceled the Postal Service contracts.

Planning for the Florida FEC routing is still ongoing and we may actually see this within the next few years. Planning, funding and starting new passenger train routes takes years.

Downeaster is probably the template for most future services. State or local governments help fund the service.

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There are some good route ideas in those 2000-2001 plans, but the only 2 expansions that have happened that I can recall are the Downeaster and daily Texas Eagle. In the good or interesting idea bin, I would put the Crescent Star, FEC, Twilight Limited, Chicago to Des Moines (which could still eventually happen, but by via CHI to Quad Cities), the International CHI-Toronto.

The crystal ball for 10 years out in 2021 is way too cloudy to guess what new routes may exist by then or what Amtrak will look like, but we do have funded service expansion projects that will see new routes by 2015-2016.

New routes / corridor services by 2015:

-Chicago to Quad Cities

-Chicago to Dubuque

-Downeaster extension to Brunswick, ME

-NE Regional extension to Norfolk, VA south of the James River.

-Reroute of the Vermonter to the CT River corridor in central MA with several NHV-SPG shuttles extended north to Greenfield

In the possible category:

-FEC on the east cost of FL with a split Silver Star and a daily Miami to Jacksonville service

-extension of the Vermonter to Montreal

-in the advanced planning/early construction phases, extension of NE Regional service to Roanoke VA but not running yet.

-Coast Daylight in California

-extension of the Ethan Allen to Burlington if funding can be found.

-Chicago to Twin Cities corridor service

Any other possible (realistic) new corridors or service extensions by 2015/2016 that I have not thought of? Of course, we will see upgrades and trip time improvements to CHI-STL, CHI-DET, Cascades, California corridors, NC, Empire corridor, Springfield & Keystone East corridors, NEC by then, but those are all over existing routes.

dlagrua said:

What I fail to understnd is why the USPS pulled out of Amtrak or why perhaps Amtrak dumped them. Its common knowledge that railroad transportation is the most economical way to transport freight. The USPS needs cost savings and Amtrak needs revenue.

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Amtrak, or more specificly, then Amtrak CEO David Gunn, cancelled the mail contracts. He did so with virtually no notice to USPS (and, they were not happy about that). It was part of his plan to get out of the mail and express business claiming it lost money and delayed trains. Amtrak hauled bulk mail for USPS.

Anderson said:

-The Aztec Eagle never really made sense from what I can tell, and most of these lines were aimed at picking up freight contracts ...

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AMTRAK used to run the TE to Laredo, with connecting service into Mexico. I think this service would still do fine, passenger wise, even without connecting train service. There is a constant parade of Mexico-bound buses on I35. A few more coach cars, and this service could work.

Anderson said:

The Crescent Star never quite got the needed political traction, and I think the estimates were that it would lose money to boot.

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There was effort by Lousianna, mainly Shreveport and the casinos, to get service started to the DFW area, even is a solo train. Even the host railroad was behind it. The Crescent would be a benefit even today, if equipment were available. Sadly however, the NOL section would likely get the short stick with the bulk of equipment and service turned towards DFW ....

daveyb99 said:

Sadly however, the NOL section would likely get the short stick with the bulk of equipment and service turned towards DFW ....

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Isn't this already going to happen, with cars being cut in Atlanta?

daveyb99 said:

AMTRAK used to run the TE to Laredo, with connecting service into Mexico. I think this service would still do fine, passenger wise, even without connecting train service. There is a constant parade of Mexico-bound buses on I35. A few more coach cars, and this service could work.

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Although the customer base is probably large enough to fill those trains that particular route is now controlled by the infamous Union Pacific. It would seem extremely unlikely that Amtrak would be able to negotiate a rate they have any chance of actually paying amid continued pressure for budget cuts at the federal level.

OK, your new avatar is fantastic. Best yet!

Isn't a good portion of the Crescent Star route in Louisiana co-owned with KCS? (I think) they call it the Monroe Speedway

dlagrua said:

What I fail to understnd is why the USPS pulled out of Amtrak or why perhaps Amtrak dumped them. Its common knowledge that railroad transportation is the most economical way to transport freight. The USPS needs cost savings and Amtrak needs revenue.

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Does Amtrak need revenue? Yes. Is scheduling mail on passenger trains more important than catering to passengers? No. Amtrak needs to focus on actually running passenger trains.

Texas Sunset said:

Anderson said:

-The Aztec Eagle (1) never really made sense from what I can tell, and most of these lines were aimed at picking up freight contracts. With that said, I could see some logic behind a train to Mexico City (2) if Mexico ever settles out.

Click to expand...

(1) Financial sense? (2) Settles the drug war?

Anderson said:

-The Crescent Star never quite got the needed political traction, and I think the estimates were that it would lose money to boot.

Click to expand...

I thought we already put to rest the idea that Amtrak should (or even could) make money?

Anderson said:

-The Downeaster (Boston-Portland) was an exception to all of this, since Maine and Massachusetts (IIRC) were "paying for the party", so to speak.

Click to expand...

As more and more federal budget cuts are likely to be forthcoming (Romney has apparently been quoted as promising another half trillion in funding cuts) one-off purple state trains like the Downeaster may eventually become the rule rather than the exception.

Click to expand...

On Mexico:

-Financial sense, as far as I can tell. The train was likely to be stand-alone (at least, as it was listed...it didn't list as an extension of the Texas Eagle, for example), I would not want to contemplate the border delays, and I don't know how much traffic they could generate just on that corridor that would continue onward.

-Yes, the drug war.

On the Crescent Star: There's "making money" and there's substantially adding to the operating deficits. Some changes in service would cut the losses and some would expand them (some dramatically, some slightly), and some will even make a hash of cost recovery figures.

On Amtrak making money: I believe that there is a model by which Amtrak can cover its operating costs (i.e. excluding capital expenditures and depreciation), and I think we're moving in that direction. However, it basically involves the NEC (and potentially a few other regional systems) subsidizing the LD trains.

On state corridors becoming more common: I tend to agree. I suspect that once a state-supported train gets going, it will be politically hard to kill unless it is bleeding money (and yes, I'll say that such trains have existed and needed to go away). The big question is whether the states are willing to "knit" them together as time goes by with interstate lines other than ones that plug into Chicago (for example).

On the Pennsylvanian: For some reason, I thought it ceased being a "daylight" train somewhere in eastern Ohio.

Anderson said:

On the Crescent Star: There's "making money" and there's substantially adding to the operating deficits. Some changes in service would cut the losses and some would expand them (some dramatically, some slightly), and some will even make a hash of cost recovery figures.

On Amtrak making money: I believe that there is a model by which Amtrak can cover its operating costs (i.e. excluding capital expenditures and depreciation), and I think we're moving in that direction. However, it basically involves the NEC (and potentially a few other regional systems) subsidizing the LD trains.

On state corridors becoming more common: I tend to agree. I suspect that once a state-supported train gets going, it will be politically hard to kill unless it is bleeding money (and yes, I'll say that such trains have existed and needed to go away). The big question is whether the states are willing to "knit" them together as time goes by with interstate lines other than ones that plug into Chicago (for example).

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The Crescent Star extension to Dallas would connect the 4th largest Metro area population to the 9th largest, Atlanta, to the Northeast (NYC, Philly, DC). If the track quality and trip times to Dallas are acceptable, sounds like a viable idea to me. But a possible split extension to Dallas is not mentioned in the recent Crescent section of PIP, so Amtrak has apparently dropped the idea entirely.

About state supported corridors, the more state corridors there are with track & station upgrades, multiple daily frequencies, the better it is for the LD trains. If an LD train could operate over a state supported corridor service at both ends of the route, that should help the cost recovery and trip times for the LD train. The corridor service provides a larger pool of potential passengers, shares the costs of running the stations, pays for track improvements over that section of the LD route. That the Sunset Limited does not run over any corridor service routes and stations except at the very end in LA is one of the challenges for the SL. If TX had a multiple daily frequency San Antonio to Dallas train, that would help anchor the TE and SL. Corridor service over the FEC and Miami to Orlando & Tampa would benefit the Silvers. And so on.

The more state supported corridors there are, the more prospects there will be - in the long run - for new/restored LD train routes.