Actually, while I anxiously await the return of the diner to the LSL, the numbers for last fiscal year were not bad. Probably hurt worse by the Albany situation than the diner; sleeper space is often sold out on the LSL, availability of more space, either through the use of a bag/dorm or an added sleeper (eventually) will probably be more beneficial than the return of the diner. I was on the LSL 2 weeks ago, and while I would love to see the diner return, the crew did an excellent job with the D-L and the food was not bad. It is only 2 meals in ether direction that the diner would handle, and while it limits the selections somewhat, they did pretty well. To me, the most glaring deficiency in LD-SL is lack of a decent lounge area for 'sightseeing/relaxation, and on a train like the Lake, where they use a split car with B/C sold, there isn't any "chill zone".
Viewliner II Part 2: Dining Car Production, Delivery, Speculation
- Thread starter AmtrakBlue
- Start date
Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
Would it then make sense perhaps to return the Diner to the LSL without making any menu or staff change? That would seem to address the most serious issues while keeping costs under control. Staff can be increased when additional Sleepers are added.
Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Since there are only a few items that need the grill, the menu is not hugely different. A few items that are reheats would be finished on the grill and that would probably be a bit better also. I think people tend to exaggerate the food issue. You and I have both agreed in the past that heat and serve can be quite decent, using the examples of airline In'tl first class, and even Acela FC. If I remember, on my recent trip it was LSA, Waiter, and Chef, not sure what they had in the past.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
I had an excellent reheated full English Breakfast including poached eggs in Virgin East Coast First Class at seat service on the way from London Kings X to Edinburgh Waverley. While getting freshly prepared stuff to reheat on the train would be tough in LD trains, Corridor Trains are a different matter. But then we simply don’t do good food on Corridor Trains anymore except in Acelas.
On this train today there were three First Class cars today, completely full. Four servers provided remarkable at seat service with endless multiple servings of tea, coffee and adult beverages, and even a second helping of food for the few that wanted it. And all this with significant turnover at each of the six stops enroute in the four hour and twenty minutes journey.
Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
On this train today there were three First Class cars today, completely full. Four servers provided remarkable at seat service with endless multiple servings of tea, coffee and adult beverages, and even a second helping of food for the few that wanted it. And all this with significant turnover at each of the six stops enroute in the four hour and twenty minutes journey.
Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
nti1094
Service Attendant
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2015
- Messages
- 147
Sorry I meant this PAST August. He said the service staff was under the impression fromtheir supervisors it was supposed to happen then.
But yes, next August seems to be more reasonable.
Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Last edited by a moderator:
Thirdrail7
Engineer
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
- Messages
- 4,542
I am not being disrespectful at this time. I'm merely seeking follow up to YOUR statements. You have brought up this shop margin more than once. I'm interested in knowing what it means and why you've brought it up on more than one occasion.
Additionally, you stated and I quote " LSL ridership and sales are definitely hindered by the diner-lites. Management may not care about the customer, but they do about the bottom line, and the longer the LSL is kept this way, the longer ridership and revenue continue to suffer..
I'm not sure why you find it disrespectful for someone to ask what you're basing these statements on? Are they facts? Are they opinions? Are you getting them from Amtrak's financial sheets?
These are reasonable questions to your statements.
cpotisch
Engineer
Amtrak has kept a 20% shop margin at the respective crew bases for most long distance trains (https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/corporate/businessplanning/2012-Amtrak-Fleet-Strategy-v3.1-%2003-29-12.pdf - find on page 'planned shop'). I have brought that up I believe 3 (maybe 4) times over the course of 17 pages on this forum. I have mentioned the 20% and 13 diners when new diners have been delivered, for two main reasons:
a) New posters or viewers may have entered the forum since
b) With each car that gets into Amtrak's hands, that gives us a more accurate timeframe about upcoming cars
Once the Silver Meteor and Crescent have been fully outfitted with Viewliner diners, the question is "What will they do with the next cars?" The LSL lost it's dining car do to Heritage shortages and V-II delays:
https://akronrrclub.wordpress.com/2016/07/25/amtrak-describes-removal-of-dining-cars-from-lake-shore-limited-as-temporary-measure/
http://www.timesunion.com/tuplus-business/article/Amtrak-replaces-dining-cars-used-on-Lake-Shore-8404195.php)
If that was why they ditched the dining car, sufficient equipment should make for it's return, and the shop margin would tell us how many cars are needed. Bear in mind that Amtrak has had to offer lower LSL sleeper fares since the diners' removal, so while there are lower costs in operating a diner-lite, that has been more than offset by lower fares. Even with fare cuts to the LSL, the Capitol Ltd has now been made a more appealing option to many NYP-CHI pax, and that train has already been frequently overwhelmed during peak seasons anyway.
Though I admit there hasn't been significantly lower ridership on the LSL, sleepers have not been selling out as frequently, and combined with the lower fares per passenger, that does make for lower revenue.
The Star has been able to ditch a whole locomotive by using only a cafe car (something that saves a lot of money), but the LSL has not been able to lose any. The Card operates without waiters (SCAs are used) and has a Cafe/Diner combo, which also makes for major cost cutting.
This is why the Lake Shore Limited will be the first train to get it's diner back.
The numbers that I have seen do not support the notion that sleeper revenue per rider is deteriorating on the LSL. If less days are selling out, it may indicate more days that were lightly sold are selling better, the money has to be coming from some where. If the number of passengers is relatively close, fares can not be eroding to any great degree since the revenue is relatively stable.. That being said, I support your notion that the LSL is likely to get its diner back in the not terribly distant future, but I certainly would not try to pin it down in any definitive fashion, there is too much that can go wrong.
cpotisch
Engineer
Unfortunately, I was not able to find the an article or page that specifically states that revenue has dropped. That said, the roomette low bucket for two people from NYP-CHI dropped about $85 after the diner-lite was announced. In addition, having looked at fares very frequently both before and after July (when it was announced), roomettes have been selling out slower, with low bucket fares being shown very frequently. In retrospect I should have found more physical proof for that, but from personal experience, LSL sleepers do seem to be cheaper and more available than they were before. And as I said, LSL diner-lite uses more staff than the Card, so cost-savings for Amtrak on that end aren't as significant.
I was basing my thoughts on the Oct-Aug of 16 comparison to Oct -Aug of 17 from Amtrak financials. Anecdotal sampling of the fare base or buckets don't present a true view, because they don't reflect what the actual yield is. As an example if I sell one or two for less, but two or 3 for more, or if selling a few more for less that otherwise may have been empty, my yield may still be greater. Looking at the average revenue per sleeper passenger presented, I don't see the erosion.
TiBike
OBS Chief
The 20% shop margin is a well repeated statement from several Amtrak officials. What it has to do with the new diner car assignment is unknown. Its a completely debatable number to begin with. However its a simple number for simple questions on capacity issues.
As for allotments for the new diner equipment this is a non issue for me. I will get excited about the sleepers, and maybe the placement of the crew bags-sleeper cars.
Show me the revenue allotments!!!
west point
Engineer
We know that some Heritage diners were sent thru BEE & NOL for undisclosed work . Once there are 13 V-2 diners fully available for unrestricted service "maybe" Amtrak might consider assigning Heritage diners to the LSL with spares in CHI and SSY ? Then when 4 or 5 more V-2 diners in unrestricted service "maybe" Heritage diners on Star ? IMHO probably not ?
Acela150
Super Buff
I'm honestly astonished that multiple people are calling out ThirdRail on something that he would have solid information on. If anyone could verify the information as true or untrue it's ThirdRail.
west point
Engineer
Agree -- From other sources that this poster never quotes 3rd rail is spot on. He certainly know more than this poster !
EDIT. since this poster always triples checks he never posts news except own observation. Also quick to admit wron g !
EDIT. since this poster always triples checks he never posts news except own observation. Also quick to admit wron g !
Last edited by a moderator:
MikefromCrete
Engineer
Third Rail has the inside scoop. Just about everybody else is just speculating.
That's because they come in here and don't "get to know the lay of the land" before sprouting off. And probably don't pay much attention to others posts except when the posts contradict what they posted.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
Thirdrail7
Engineer
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
- Messages
- 4,542
Thanks to Blue, Acela and West Point for the votes of confidence but I'm going to take the post below and run with it:
First of all, I don't really have a problem with people questioning my posts. I don't know everything. Indeed, as the regime change continues, I lose access to things (or people) I can readily put my hands on. I make very few posts on any of the boards I used to frequent. There is a reason for that. I like this board because the vast majority of you are the actual passengers!
As such, I am interested in what you have to say. I am interested in the way you think because it is my position that no matter what position I hold, my job boils down to passenger services. No matter what you do, you job is based on moving the passengers and I have been quite vocal in my observation that a lot of people tied to the company don't realize it. I'm not sure some people (the IT department as an example) realizes that trains run after 4pm, on weekends or on holidays...if they realize they run at all.
Then, there are those who (in my opinion) move "equipment" instead of people. It shows with some of the moves that are made. The older mentality was to move the "people." However, that comes with "costs." If you're like me (which is why I and my ilk were elbowed aside), you took pride in getting the last person home..by cab, bus, ordering a crew to operate an extra, telling them to stay with it and bringing the equipment back when the mission is completed. This is because passenger services trumped costs in my mind. A happy passenger (and some people are still never happy) is a returning passenger. They just want to get where they are going.
However, those times have change because of something that happens. It boils down to one word:
Adaptation.
People adapt quite quickly. We may complain, carp, whine but in the end, we cope and adapt. The trains used to run like clockwork. They don't anymore. The passengers adapted. The train is an hour late? The passengers adapted to the point they don't even really expect on time performance. They've adapted. Let's close some stations and cut services! It may not be a great idea, but the passengers will adapt. As such, why spend money (you don't have) increasing your costs when people have shown their willingness and ability to adapt?
When I had a degree of sway, the mentality was moving the people. Now, it is cost effectiveness. I find that there is degree of conflicting agenda when these two mix. The group that didn't pay attention to the numbers are long gone, being bought out or elbowed aside (cough cough.) This is why when
cpotisch started mentioning ridership and revenue loss, I wanted to know where that came from. We don't know who he is. I remember when KnightRider came around. He tried to tell someone (as a guest) that the 8400 wasn't in WAS. People were reluctant to believe him because he was new. However, he/she was 100% correct. So, I pay attention to everyone. We can learn a lot from each other here...which is why I post here.
Let's start reigning this rambling post in!
This is the bottom line. We have corporate changes occurring. Now, I can say with certainty there are certain agendas (customer services, safety,discipline, cost controls) that are clearly being pursued. There are certain interests that are clearly being contemplated (seating plans, uniformity.) We will find out more after next calendar begins. I do note a few things. We have heard a great deal about infrastructure, the NEC, state supported services, and the various plans to deliver these services to the average person that is looking to go from "here to there"(hence the website debacle) This is what is to be expected when you have airline people in charge. We've been through this before and we know the deal. However, it has been unusually quiet on the Long Distance front. When you try to get answers, they are not readily available. There does not appear to be a discernible "clear path." Perhaps they are in the process of working on it right now. Our CEO wanted to upgrade cars and quickly found out how the finances work over here! Obviously, you need a pecking order! That's all well and good. However, when you start asking "what should we do with these cars," and there isn't an enthusiastic "prepare the LSL", it is worthy of note.
As such, Mr. Mikefromcrete, a lot of "insiders" are just speculating as well. This is why I am so interested in the numbers. If ridership hasn't suffered on the LSL and revenue hasn't suffered, they may not return the dining cars. They may say "the passengers seem to have adapted" and we can save 4 million (as an example). As much as people are willing to believe the Star was about cost control, the ball started rolling when they realized the diners were not forthcoming and there were no investments in the heritage fleet(take a look at the financial link posted above.) It was"'an experiment" that achieved(?) the financial results they allegedly desired. The winter consist plan was an "experiment." Combining a corridor train with a chronically late LD train was supposed to be an experiment. Neroden PROVED that ridership dropped after the first year but they still made it a permanent change. Apparently, the desired cost results were achieved. The remaining passengers adapted and numbers drop was obviously not enough to justify reinstating a separate train.
The same thing could occur with the LSL which is why I stated, it is too early to tell. Someone may like what they see. It is quite clear that costs will dictate the policy. Maybe they can shake some cost out of the OBS crews and add them to the Cardinal and Star. Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll convert them.
It is all speculation at this point.
This was clearly a hijack and I apologize. Move it where you feel it fits.
I have a lot to say on various matters but I have to hold back to a certain level. I will ask the mods to indulge me a little here as there is no real thread (with the possible exception of the Richard Anderson thread) that would fit this post. I will tie this back to the LSL and Viewliners.
First of all, I don't really have a problem with people questioning my posts. I don't know everything. Indeed, as the regime change continues, I lose access to things (or people) I can readily put my hands on. I make very few posts on any of the boards I used to frequent. There is a reason for that. I like this board because the vast majority of you are the actual passengers!
As such, I am interested in what you have to say. I am interested in the way you think because it is my position that no matter what position I hold, my job boils down to passenger services. No matter what you do, you job is based on moving the passengers and I have been quite vocal in my observation that a lot of people tied to the company don't realize it. I'm not sure some people (the IT department as an example) realizes that trains run after 4pm, on weekends or on holidays...if they realize they run at all.
Then, there are those who (in my opinion) move "equipment" instead of people. It shows with some of the moves that are made. The older mentality was to move the "people." However, that comes with "costs." If you're like me (which is why I and my ilk were elbowed aside), you took pride in getting the last person home..by cab, bus, ordering a crew to operate an extra, telling them to stay with it and bringing the equipment back when the mission is completed. This is because passenger services trumped costs in my mind. A happy passenger (and some people are still never happy) is a returning passenger. They just want to get where they are going.
However, those times have change because of something that happens. It boils down to one word:
Adaptation.
People adapt quite quickly. We may complain, carp, whine but in the end, we cope and adapt. The trains used to run like clockwork. They don't anymore. The passengers adapted. The train is an hour late? The passengers adapted to the point they don't even really expect on time performance. They've adapted. Let's close some stations and cut services! It may not be a great idea, but the passengers will adapt. As such, why spend money (you don't have) increasing your costs when people have shown their willingness and ability to adapt?
When I had a degree of sway, the mentality was moving the people. Now, it is cost effectiveness. I find that there is degree of conflicting agenda when these two mix. The group that didn't pay attention to the numbers are long gone, being bought out or elbowed aside (cough cough.) This is why when
cpotisch started mentioning ridership and revenue loss, I wanted to know where that came from. We don't know who he is. I remember when KnightRider came around. He tried to tell someone (as a guest) that the 8400 wasn't in WAS. People were reluctant to believe him because he was new. However, he/she was 100% correct. So, I pay attention to everyone. We can learn a lot from each other here...which is why I post here.
Let's start reigning this rambling post in!
This is the bottom line. We have corporate changes occurring. Now, I can say with certainty there are certain agendas (customer services, safety,discipline, cost controls) that are clearly being pursued. There are certain interests that are clearly being contemplated (seating plans, uniformity.) We will find out more after next calendar begins. I do note a few things. We have heard a great deal about infrastructure, the NEC, state supported services, and the various plans to deliver these services to the average person that is looking to go from "here to there"(hence the website debacle) This is what is to be expected when you have airline people in charge. We've been through this before and we know the deal. However, it has been unusually quiet on the Long Distance front. When you try to get answers, they are not readily available. There does not appear to be a discernible "clear path." Perhaps they are in the process of working on it right now. Our CEO wanted to upgrade cars and quickly found out how the finances work over here! Obviously, you need a pecking order! That's all well and good. However, when you start asking "what should we do with these cars," and there isn't an enthusiastic "prepare the LSL", it is worthy of note.
As such, Mr. Mikefromcrete, a lot of "insiders" are just speculating as well. This is why I am so interested in the numbers. If ridership hasn't suffered on the LSL and revenue hasn't suffered, they may not return the dining cars. They may say "the passengers seem to have adapted" and we can save 4 million (as an example). As much as people are willing to believe the Star was about cost control, the ball started rolling when they realized the diners were not forthcoming and there were no investments in the heritage fleet(take a look at the financial link posted above.) It was"'an experiment" that achieved(?) the financial results they allegedly desired. The winter consist plan was an "experiment." Combining a corridor train with a chronically late LD train was supposed to be an experiment. Neroden PROVED that ridership dropped after the first year but they still made it a permanent change. Apparently, the desired cost results were achieved. The remaining passengers adapted and numbers drop was obviously not enough to justify reinstating a separate train.
The same thing could occur with the LSL which is why I stated, it is too early to tell. Someone may like what they see. It is quite clear that costs will dictate the policy. Maybe they can shake some cost out of the OBS crews and add them to the Cardinal and Star. Maybe they won't. Maybe they'll convert them.
It is all speculation at this point.
This was clearly a hijack and I apologize. Move it where you feel it fits.
I'm consistently amazed at the amount of false information that gets passed around on railroad forums. People take the (often very) limited information most of us have access to and make (unsupported) inferences, speculation, and not a few wild guesses to arrive at definitive conclusions. I've read how Amtrak has no intention of retiring the original Acela trainsets, that they have a "signed contract" with Siemens for 150 Chargers, how much money removing dining cars would save, that nobody will ride a restored Gulf Coast service because there is a parallel interstate, and - my personal favorite - that the pipedream of a Chicago-Florida train is not possible because the rail lines pass over mountains.
I fully realize that none of us here - certainly including myself - are not sometimes guilty of the same offence, particularly when we speak on subjects other than railroading - but we are also the very people aware of the pitfalls of commonly held but erroneous positions. How many times have we heard not just a politician or "think tank" critic, but transportation planners and other officials who ought to know better, repeat the tired phrases that "passenger trains only make sense in short to medium distance corridors where they can compete with airplanes" and long-distance trains are an anachronism because "no one will ride a train from Chicago to Los Angeles".
Post of the Year! Thanks Thirdrail!
Look at how much silliness has been bantered about the NS cars and Charger locomotives that AMTRAK purchased (NOT!) They are on the NGEC, and they will operate them, but they sure as hell didn't buy them. And yet we constantly see Amtrak did this wrong or that wrong with these contracts.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
Thirdrail, one thing I heard a couple of times in sidebar conversations at the RPA RailNation 2017 is that all single level overnight trains will most likely get VL II Diners added to them, but the exact service provided in them may vary considerably from train to train.
Hence my idle speculation that maybe some trains will continue with reduced OBS Staff and menu even though delivered in a somewhat more attractive setting.
Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Hence my idle speculation that maybe some trains will continue with reduced OBS Staff and menu even though delivered in a somewhat more attractive setting.
Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Last edited by a moderator:
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
AU Supporting Member
Gathering Team Member
Many railfans are relatively low information, low competence, strong opinion people. They are also prone to attempt “baffling with bulls*it” a lot, and get angry if called on it. Just got to handle them gently with appropriate care [emoji57]
Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum
Last edited by a moderator:
