No Florida High Speed Rail

[PRR 60]

... Train's aren't raising your taxes; it's all those highways in Florida that are raising your taxes. The last expansion of I-4 cost FLDOT more per mile to build than this train would have and those lanes aren't being fully paid for by the fuel taxes. Your other Florida taxes are still going into that highway.

Florida DOT states that all state highway costs - engineering, construction and maintenance - are funded from the Florida Transportation Trust Fund. The FTTF is funded from the state fuel tax and license and registration fees. As far as I can determine, no state general tax revenue is used for state highway projects like Interstate highway expansion. I can't find any evidence that suggests that is not correct.

 

[AlanB]

... Train's aren't raising your taxes; it's all those highways in Florida that are raising your taxes. The last expansion of I-4 cost FLDOT more per mile to build than this train would have and those lanes aren't being fully paid for by the fuel taxes. Your other Florida taxes are still going into that highway.

Florida DOT states that all state highway costs - engineering, construction and maintenance - are funded from the Florida Transportation Trust Fund. The FTTF is funded from the state fuel tax and license and registration fees. As far as I can determine, no state general tax revenue is used for state highway projects like Interstate highway expansion. I can't find any evidence that suggests that is not correct.

The FTTF doesn't fund local roads, property taxes do. Yet everytime he drives his car down his street, he's paying fuel taxes for something that he's not using. So no matter how you slice it, his taxes are higher because of that highway.

And of course since the Fed supplies a large part of highway funds and not all of that comes out gas taxes, his income tax is higher than it needs to be because of I-4 being made wider.

 

[DET63]

the Florida Supreme Court has ruled ...

The Florida Supreme Court also ruled that Al Gore won.

Meaning that if it were to have had a bias, it probably would have been pro-rail in this case, not anti.

 

[PRR 60]

... Train's aren't raising your taxes; it's all those highways in Florida that are raising your taxes. The last expansion of I-4 cost FLDOT more per mile to build than this train would have and those lanes aren't being fully paid for by the fuel taxes. Your other Florida taxes are still going into that highway.

Florida DOT states that all state highway costs - engineering, construction and maintenance - are funded from the Florida Transportation Trust Fund. The FTTF is funded from the state fuel tax and license and registration fees. As far as I can determine, no state general tax revenue is used for state highway projects like Interstate highway expansion. I can't find any evidence that suggests that is not correct.

The FTTF doesn't fund local roads, property taxes do. Yet everytime he drives his car down his street, he's paying fuel taxes for something that he's not using. So no matter how you slice it, his taxes are higher because of that highway.

And of course since the Fed supplies a large part of highway funds and not all of that comes out gas taxes, his income tax is higher than it needs to be because of I-4 being made wider.

But, Alan, to be fair, the statement was made that the Florida DOT expansion of I-4 (and by extension other FL DOT projects) was paid by other than fuel taxes: that Florida taxes other than the fuel tax and fees were used for Florida DOT highway projects. That is simply not correct. The state share of Florida DOT highway projects and maintenance is funded through fuel taxes and fees and nothing else.

Yes, local roads use local taxes. But realistically the presence or absence of HSR will not change that at all. Even the local tax impact of roads is not a clear cut case in Florida. Florida is unique in that there is local component of of the fuel tax that helps offset local taxes. A second fuel tax - ranging from 9.9 to 17.8 cents per gallon depending on locality - goes to local municipalities. So. even local roads do not rely completely upon general local taxes.

Florida has among the highest state and local fuel taxes in the nation - as high as 37 cents per gallon depending on fuel type and locality. I think they do their part for funding highways from auto use. The presence or absence of the rail line between Tampa and MCO makes little difference with the tax burden for highways at either the state or local level. There are lots of good reasons to build HSR in Florida. Saving highway taxes is not one of them.

 

[Ryan]

So. even local roads do not rely completely upon general local taxes.

There are lots of good reasons to build HSR in Florida. Saving highway taxes is not one of them.

Your arguments would be a lot more persuasive if anyone was making these kinds of claims.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

It seems like you all have beaten this dead horse enough!!! I am a Florida resident, pay taxes in Florida, and I am one of many hundreds of thousands who are glad this is DONE. We already have a daily AMTRAK from Tampa to Orlando.....nobody rides it......we have a sufficient busing service....nobody rides it. As a retired Pinellas County bus driver, I spent many years driving the county buses on the designated routes....most often a small scattering of riders. Give the money we don't have to others that need it more and don't mind seeing cost over-runs, and taxes continue to sky-rocket. "People love to spend on things they don't need, with money they don't have, to impress people they don't like."

I have a loathing hatred of anyone not living in the state of New Jersey ever suggesting such a thing as them having high taxes. But good golly, there are Floridians who think that Florida taxes, which are some of the lowest in the nation with... no income tax at all... are high? Dudes, Pot, LSD, crack, cocaine, PCP, and whatever else you're smoking is illegal.

Florida NEEDS HIGHER TAXES, BETTER SERVICES, AND MORE ACCOMODATIONS FOR THE BAZILLIONS OF OLD PEOPLE WHO SHOULDN'T BE KILLING OUR CHILDREN WITH THEIR CADILLACS AND CATARACTS!

 

[PRR 60]

...THE BAZILLIONS OF OLD PEOPLE WHO SHOULDN'T BE KILLING OUR CHILDREN WITH THEIR CADILLACS AND CATARACTS!

How else are they supposed to get to the local Sizzler for the Early Bird Special? :lol:

 

[Trogdor]

I find it interesting that PJRACER says "nobody rides" the Amtrak service to Tampa. Just taking today's departure of train 91 as an example, 86 people are scheduled to alight in Tampa (with another 118 boarding, which is equal to about half the coach capacity of the entire train). Today's 92 had 106 people boarding in Tampa, with 125 alighting.

Now, granted, I don't know how many of those north-of-TPA riders are going to/from Orlando (42 people were scheduled off in Orlando from 92, and I don't really have the motivation to dig through the details to find out exactly how many TPA-ORL passengers there were). However, given that this high-speed rail segment was supposed to be part of a larger route extending all the way down to Miami, and given that with the limited service currently offered you still have a pretty good number of folks riding (total intra-Florida ridership on today's train 92 was nearly 300 people; that is to say, 300 people got off the train before it even made it out of Florida, with over 200 of those going no further than Orlando), it suggests to me that you are insulting a lot of people by calling them "nobody."

Of course, having grown up in Wisconsin, I'm actually quite used to seeing full loads of people on public transportation referred to as "nobody" (and treated as nobody by the policy-makers). It seems to be one of the standard anti-rail, anti-transit matras, to just say "nobody" rides something regardless of how many people actually do.

 

[George Harris]

Florida NEEDS HIGHER TAXES, BETTER SERVICES, AND MORE ACCOMODATIONS FOR THE BAZILLIONS OF OLD PEOPLE WHO SHOULDN'T BE KILLING OUR CHILDREN WITH THEIR CADILLACS AND CATARACTS!

The major reason that Florida does not have better services it that is way too cluttered up with people from New Jersey and other New York area states that have retired to Florida and are determined that they will not have anything approaching even a fraction of the taxes they paid up there. These people DO NOT CARE whether Florida has a functional educational system, transportation or anything else that inconveniences their attempts to live in a low wage near third world area for their own convience. They may barely be able to spell Florida and may even at times forget where they are, but for sure they get out and vote to oppose anything that might accidentially benefit any residents of the state other than themselves.

 

[Spokker]

Young people should visit Florida. They should not be living there. Those with decades ahead of them should flee Florida. Parents who raise children in Florida should be charged with child abuse.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Young people should visit Florida. They should not be living there. Those with decades ahead of them should flee Florida. Parents who raise children in Florida should be charged with child abuse.

Amen.

 

[George Harris]

Young people should visit Florida. They should not be living there. Those with decades ahead of them should flee Florida. Parents who raise children in Florida should be charged with child abuse.

Amen.

I will try to remember to tell that to my daughter, her children, and various and sundry others of my friends and in-laws.

Almost forgot: I took a job outside the country to avoid taking one that would have sent me to New Jersey.

 

[eagle628]

I find it interesting that PJRACER says "nobody rides" the Amtrak service to Tampa. Just taking today's departure of train 91 as an example, 86 people are scheduled to alight in Tampa (with another 118 boarding, which is equal to about half the coach capacity of the entire train). Today's 92 had 106 people boarding in Tampa, with 125 alighting.

Now, granted, I don't know how many of those north-of-TPA riders are going to/from Orlando (42 people were scheduled off in Orlando from 92, and I don't really have the motivation to dig through the details to find out exactly how many TPA-ORL passengers there were). However, given that this high-speed rail segment was supposed to be part of a larger route extending all the way down to Miami, and given that with the limited service currently offered you still have a pretty good number of folks riding (total intra-Florida ridership on today's train 92 was nearly 300 people; that is to say, 300 people got off the train before it even made it out of Florida, with over 200 of those going no further than Orlando), it suggests to me that you are insulting a lot of people by calling them "nobody."

How do you get those numbers?

 

[Hamhock]

Now now, everyone; as someone who, in the past, has lived in both New Jersey and Florida, I can assure you that there are at least 15 whole square blocks in Miami Beach that are a quite pleasant place to live. Outside of that, the entire state should be fed into a woodchipper, panhandle-first.

As for New Jersey, it's absurd, and shouldn't exist as its own entity; rather, it should be divided in halvsies and distributed to Pennsylvania and New York.

 

[jis]

Now now, everyone; as someone who, in the past, has lived in both New Jersey and Florida, I can assure you that there are at least 15 whole square blocks in Miami Beach that are a quite pleasant place to live. Outside of that, the entire state should be fed into a woodchipper, panhandle-first.

As for New Jersey, it's absurd, and shouldn't exist as its own entity; rather, it should be divided in halvsies and distributed to Pennsylvania and New York.

Or let it sail away and let it join its namesake (whence it got its name from), a little island off the shores of England.

 

[George Harris]

Now now, everyone; as someone who, in the past, has lived in both New Jersey and Florida, I can assure you that there are at least 15 whole square blocks in Miami Beach that are a quite pleasant place to live. Outside of that, the entire state should be fed into a woodchipper, panhandle-first.

As for New Jersey, it's absurd, and shouldn't exist as its own entity; rather, it should be divided in halvsies and distributed to Pennsylvania and New York.

I would have considered the Panhandle the part worth saving. How could the country make it without the "Redneck Rivera" between Mobile Bay and Panama City?

 

[Greg]

Now now, everyone; as someone who, in the past, has lived in both New Jersey and Florida, I can assure you that there are at least 15 whole square blocks in Miami Beach that are a quite pleasant place to live. Outside of that, the entire state should be fed into a woodchipper, panhandle-first.

As for New Jersey, it's absurd, and shouldn't exist as its own entity; rather, it should be divided in halvsies and distributed to Pennsylvania and New York.

I would have considered the Panhandle the part worth saving. How could the country make it without the "Redneck Rivera" between Mobile Bay and Panama City?

HAHA, thanks for that vote George! as a resident of the panhandle, I certainly don't wantt to go in the woodchipper...and I'll keep my opinions about everything south of the "cross florida barge canal" to myself!

 

[pennyk]

It seems like you all have beaten this dead horse enough!!! I am a Florida resident, pay taxes in Florida, and I am one of many hundreds of thousands who are glad this is DONE. We already have a daily AMTRAK from Tampa to Orlando.....nobody rides it......we have a sufficient busing service....nobody rides it. As a retired Pinellas County bus driver, I spent many years driving the county buses on the designated routes....most often a small scattering of riders. Give the money we don't have to others that need it more and don't mind seeing cost over-runs, and taxes continue to sky-rocket. "People love to spend on things they don't need, with money they don't have, to impress people they don't like."

I have a loathing hatred of anyone not living in the state of New Jersey ever suggesting such a thing as them having high taxes. But good golly, there are Floridians who think that Florida taxes, which are some of the lowest in the nation with... no income tax at all... are high? Dudes, Pot, LSD, crack, cocaine, PCP, and whatever else you're smoking is illegal.

Florida NEEDS HIGHER TAXES, BETTER SERVICES, AND MORE ACCOMODATIONS FOR THE BAZILLIONS OF OLD PEOPLE WHO SHOULDN'T BE KILLING OUR CHILDREN WITH THEIR CADILLACS AND CATARACTS!

As a life long Floridian, I agree with GML that Florida needs higher taxes, better services, etc. We have no income tax, we have no estate tax, and our real estate taxes are pretty low. We used to have an intangible tax, but Gov. Bush (IIRC did away with that) and now Gov. Scott :angry: wants to lower corporate income taxes and real estate taxes. We will be broke in no time and our education system will be even worse than it is now (if that is possible). I think Florida is racing with Mississippi for the bottom.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Young people should visit Florida. They should not be living there. Those with decades ahead of them should flee Florida. Parents who raise children in Florida should be charged with child abuse.

Amen.

I will try to remember to tell that to my daughter, her children, and various and sundry others of my friends and in-laws.

Almost forgot: I took a job outside the country to avoid taking one that would have sent me to New Jersey.

Have you ever been to New Jersey? The area along the Hudson River doesn't count.

 

[George Harris]

Now now, everyone; as someone who, in the past, has lived in both New Jersey and Florida, I can assure you that there are at least 15 whole square blocks in Miami Beach that are a quite pleasant place to live. Outside of that, the entire state should be fed into a woodchipper, panhandle-first.
As for New Jersey, it's absurd, and shouldn't exist as its own entity; rather, it should be divided in halvsies and distributed to Pennsylvania and New York

I would have considered the Panhandle the part worth saving. How could the country make it without the "Redneck Rivera" between Mobile Bay and Panama City?

HAHA, thanks for that vote George! as a resident of the panhandle, I certainly don't wantt to go in the woodchipper...and I'll keep my opinions about everything south of the "cross florida barge canal" to myself!

Aha! Just looked you up. Go west until you are just short of running out of Florida and you will find some of my friends and family.

 

[Bob Dylan]

It seems like you all have beaten this dead horse enough!!! I am a Florida resident, pay taxes in Florida, and I am one of many hundreds of thousands who are glad this is DONE. We already have a daily AMTRAK from Tampa to Orlando.....nobody rides it......we have a sufficient busing service....nobody rides it. As a retired Pinellas County bus driver, I spent many years driving the county buses on the designated routes....most often a small scattering of riders. Give the money we don't have to others that need it more and don't mind seeing cost over-runs, and taxes continue to sky-rocket. "People love to spend on things they don't need, with money they don't have, to impress people they don't like."

I have a loathing hatred of anyone not living in the state of New Jersey ever suggesting such a thing as them having high taxes. But good golly, there are Floridians who think that Florida taxes, which are some of the lowest in the nation with... no income tax at all... are high? Dudes, Pot, LSD, crack, cocaine, PCP, and whatever else you're smoking is illegal.

Florida NEEDS HIGHER TAXES, BETTER SERVICES, AND MORE ACCOMODATIONS FOR THE BAZILLIONS OF OLD PEOPLE WHO SHOULDN'T BE KILLING OUR CHILDREN WITH THEIR CADILLACS AND CATARACTS!

As a life long Floridian, I agree with GML that Florida needs higher taxes, better services, etc. We have no income tax, we have no estate tax, and our real estate taxes are pretty low. We used to have an intangible tax, but Gov. Bush (IIRC did away with that) and now Gov. Scott :angry: wants to lower corporate income taxes and real estate taxes. We will be broke in no time and our education system will be even worse than it is now (if that is possible). I think Florida is racing with Mississippi for the bottom.

Substitute Texas for Mississippi and you nailed it Penny! Your idiot political hacks sound like ours, were just ahead of you cause the No-nothings (pun intended!) have been in control; since W was our so called Governor! :help:

 

[George Harris]

As a life long Floridian, I agree with GML that Florida needs higher taxes, better services, etc. We have no income tax, we have no estate tax, and our real estate taxes are pretty low. We used to have an intangible tax, but Gov. Bush (IIRC did away with that) and now Gov. Scott :angry: wants to lower corporate income taxes and real estate taxes. We will be broke in no time and our education system will be even worse than it is now (if that is possible). I think Florida is racing with Mississippi for the bottom.

Substitute Texas for Mississippi and you nailed it Penny! Your idiot political hacks sound like ours, were just ahead of you cause the No-nothings (pun intended!) have been in control; since W was our so called Governor! :help:

Actually, California seems determined to win any race to the bottom and have some of the highest taxes in the nation to boot. It is an outstanding example that higher taxes does not improve public services, just means that more money is spent on them. It is not how many bucks, but learning how to get bang for your buck. But then my attitude may be hopelessly twisted, at least in teh opinion of some, by the states I have lived in, which, not counting work periods of under a year, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama, Virginia, Louisiana, Texas, and California. Throw in for flavor, Taiwan, 14 years, and Hong Kong, 2 years. There are a lot of things that are done quite well in Mississippi. My exeriences with their state bureaucracies have been far better than the ones with California or the Feds.

 

[colobok]

Florida DOT released the study that shows that Florida HSR would be profitable from the day one:

My link

So, it was clear political decision. Scott killed 24000 jobs, future profit and future infratructure just to satisfy his political sponsors

(one of them is Tea Party who just hate trains no matter what and the other is association of constructors who are interested in expanding I-4 highway).

 

[Gray]

Florida DOT released the study that shows that Florida HSR would be profitable from the day one:

My link

So, it was clear political decision. Scott killed 24000 jobs, future profit and future infratructure just to satisfy his political sponsors

(one of them is Tea Party who just hate trains no matter what and the other is association of constructors who are interested in expanding I-4 highway).

And Scott still says that he trusts the gut feelings of Cox, O'Toole and the Reason Foundation over these projections. Even when they come from his own DOT.

How can anyone seriously argue with someone who's so clearly made up his mind already?

 

[Greg]

Florida DOT released the study that shows that Florida HSR would be profitable from the day one:

My link

So, it was clear political decision. Scott killed 24000 jobs, future profit and future infratructure just to satisfy his political sponsors

(one of them is Tea Party who just hate trains no matter what and the other is association of constructors who are interested in expanding I-4 highway).

I'm really surprised that they released it given that most state agencies in Florida don't do ANYTHING which conflicts with the thoughts of the Governor.