You can't get there from here...

[njulian]

Since AMTRAK decided to never reinstate service between New Orleans and anywhere in the south, it is nearly impossible to get to Orlando from the West. Leaving El Paso it would take over 90 hours to get there..El Paso to Chicago, to DC to Orlando. Really? What a disgrace it is for America to have such poor routes. Anyway..is there a trick I am somehow missing that would get me from El Paso to Orlando in less time? Why can't they offer a bus connection to Jacksonville? I hope I don't have to fly because AMTRAK can't figure out a way to get across the southern US. Any tips appreciated.

 

[jebr]

If you're willing to stay an overnight in New Orleans (no buses leave after the Sunset Limited arrive,) you could take Greyhound the next day from New Orleans to Orlando. You could also go to Jacksonville, but it would make more sense to go straight to Orlando. You're looking at a really early arrival into Orlando (2 AM,) but it would be an option. Going back is a bit better; there's a 5:30 AM arrival and a 7:55 AM arrival into New Orleans. (I believe Greyhound and Amtrak share a station in New Orleans.) This would allow you to catch the 9 AM departure.

Getting there:

And back:

It's not Amtrak, but it would get you there without having to loop around half of the country.

The other option would be to transfer (overnight required again) to the Crescent and then take Megabus or Greyhound from there. However, you would have to take MARTA from the Amtrak station to either the Greyhound station or to the Civic Center station (to catch Megabus.) That would allow a not-middle-of-the-night arrival, but would be less convenient in terms of stations. You'd also be looking at an overnight on the way back west, which would not be required if you took Greyhound to New Orleans.

Megabus from Atlanta:

And back:

Those should give enough time to connect, but I honestly wouldn't recommend taking Megabus back to Atlanta, simply due to the extra time and the additional overnight over the Greyhound option. On the way out, I personally would do the Amtrak + Megabus, but that's personal preference.

Hope that helps and isn't too much rambling.

 

[AG1]

You can go from El Paso on #2 to New Orleans, spend the night, then on #20 to Washington DC, and transfer to the Silver star #91 to Orlando. Use the Multi-city ticket option.

NOTE ! This won't work between now and Feb 6, 2014 due to on going work on the tracks called a service disruption on the Amtrak web site.

 

[jebr]

You can go from El Paso on #2 to New Orleans, spend the night, then on #20 to Washington DC, and transfer to the Silver star #91 to Orlando. Use the Multi-city ticket option.

NOTE ! This won't work between now and Feb 6, 2014 due to on going work on the tracks called a service disruption on the Amtrak web site.

Unfortunately, that's not any faster...the time spent with the overnight layover and the Crescent is the same amount of time as would be spent going through Chicago and back down on the Capitol Limited. It may be cheaper, though, depending on which route has low bucket.

Yet another reason Amtrak needs a more solid/built-out network...having to go through Chicago and/or DC to get from the southwest to the southeast is crazy.

 

[benjibear]

In my opinion the sunset east is a huge hole in the Amtrak map. I think this service should have been restored.

 

[henryj]

The Crescent is only suspended Mon thru Thu for the three weeks starting Jan 20th. Other days it runs. If you could get to Albuquerque in tine for the 12:10 departure of the Southwest Chief, that would get you to Chicago in time to catch the Capitol and then the Silver to Orlando. Unfortunately, Greyhound gets there at 2:10pm. But it's only a four hour drive and SWA takes that long to fly you there via Phoenix. I assume you just want to take the train as SWA can fly you to Orlando in less than 5 hrs with one change of planes. Unless you just want to stopover in New Orleans for the night, I would drive to Albuquerque and catch the SWC there. If you left El Paso around 8am you would get to Orlando 10:17 on the third day or about 72hrs. It's $294 coach and $1.078 for a roomette. The Sunset when it ran all the way to Orlando, was really slow east of Houston. So even if it still ran to Orlando it would take you at least 52hrs to get there from El Paso and you would arrive after 9pm. So now you arrive the next morning. Not a whole lot different as far as sightseeing. If you are flying back then just rent a car one way to Albuquerque. If you are taking the train both ways then park in a long term parking area..

 

[7deuceman]

It is an insult to current riders and potential passengers to have to ride up to DC in order to go to Florida

on Amtrak from New Orleans and points west (and to New Orleans and the west from Florida).

The rails between Jacksonville and New Orleans have been replaced since the hurricane in 2005 and the

service by freight train long since reorganized. What are the states of LA, MS, AL and FL doing to help

Amtrak service resume?

What can the general public do to spur a discussion in order to get Amtrak service going again NOL to

JAX?

 

[MikefromCrete]

The states of LA, MS, AL and FL are doing nothing to support any Amtrak service. The Sunset East could be restored tomorrow if Congress appropriates money for the route. You see, Amtrak can't run any service unless some body of government provides cash. That's the way it works. Of course, Amtrak could kill another route and use that money for the Sunset East, but the Sunset East is a real dog of a route, slow and out of the way. There's lot of other routes that could be restored or started before wasting funds on New Orleans-Jacksonville.

 

[jebr]

There's lot of other routes that could be restored or started before wasting funds on New Orleans-Jacksonville.

How would it be a waste of money to get another route from west to east along the south, instead of forcing people from the southwest going to the southeast (or vice versa) to go through Chicago and/or DC?

Plus, I would think that the cost to restore this route would be less than some, since the route is technically "suspended," not "cancelled." I imagine that's in part due to the fact that it makes it easier for Amtrak to restore the service should governmental bodies deem it worthwhile.

 

[Nathanael]

It is an insult to current riders and potential passengers to have to ride up to DC in order to go to Florida

on Amtrak from New Orleans and points west (and to New Orleans and the west from Florida).

The rails between Jacksonville and New Orleans have been replaced since the hurricane in 2005 and the

service by freight train long since reorganized. What are the states of LA, MS, AL and FL doing to help

Amtrak service resume?

Well, 7deuceman, you've just hit on the problem. Those states are doing absolutely nothing and won't commit a dime.
When the states which host the services are supportive advocates of the service (as with Montana and North Dakota for the Empire Builder, or West Virginia for the Cardinal), Amtrak will really make great efforts to run the service. When the states show absolutely no interest, Amtrak seems to start losing interest as well.

Most of the surviving long-distance trains run through a lot of country where most of the politicians have been strongly supportive of those particular trains. Even on the Southwest Chief, the small towns along the Raton route rallied to save their route (though they haven't found the money) and mere rumors of the route moving caused Amarillo to start planning to rebuild its train station. The LSL has intense support from Illinois and New York, if not Ohio and Indiana; the Silver Service has intense support in Florida, and from North Carolina northward. Denver cares about its California Zephyr (especially since Ski Train stopped running), and so do the towns in Iowa, which have spent a lot on station improvements.

The most blatant exceptions to the rule of local support are Sunset East.... and Sunset West. Only Tucson and San Antonio, and perhaps Beaumont, seem to be strong supporters, with no support from *any* of the state governments along the route.

What can the general public do to spur a discussion in order to get Amtrak service going again NOL to

JAX?

If you can get the state government of any one of those four states to start advocating for the service, to the point of being willing to chip in some money for it, then I think the situation might become more hopeful. Barring that, if you can get enough of the city governments along the line to kick in some money, you might see some improvement. I think this would be true even if the governments offered only capital improvement funds, and left Amtrak to handle the operating costs.

Or if the US Senators or Congressmen/women for one of the states put federal money in as an earmark for the route, then you'd see it come back really quick.

But as long as the states and localities (and their Congressmen/women) won't put in any money at all, I think Amtrak isn't going to put in any money either.

This route in its current form unfortunately would almost certainly going to be a substantial detriment to Amtrak's bottom line, because it's substantially slower than the parallel highways; and it would perform even worse as a three-a-day route. It makes no sense for Amtrak to arrange to lose more money and tie up more equipment if the local politicians don't even care.

If the local politicians paid to signalize the line, speeding it up to highway speeds, and asked Amtrak to bring the route back as a daily route, I'm sure Amtrak would jump to bring it back.

 

[Paulus]

Sunset East resulted in OTP as low as 1.5% and the route was and is terribly slow, a third of it running in dark territory limited to 59mph. That is not appealing at all for short distance riders and you cannot run a train successfully without them.

http://www.cityofmobile.org/railsummit/2012-08-13%20Stennis%20Mobile%20v1.pdf

There is absolutely no reason to spend tens of millions of dollars to restore a multimillion dollar losing segment of a route that provides bad local service with minimal patronage and simply makes maps look nicer to rail fans.

 

[George Harris]

The low on-time percentage was primarily due to the overwhelming freight traffic on the western end of the route leaving the train spending a lot of time in sidings or following freight, particularly west of El Paso. As a result the train's arrival in New Orleans was normally late, frequently ridiculously so, giving a late start on its run to the east. This had much more to do with the train's poor on-time performance than the part east of New Orleans. Admittedly CSX has not been the most enthusiastic handler of Amtrak, but that was nearly a non-issue for this train.

The only part not signaled is Flomaton to Tallahassee, approximately 200 miles. All the rest is CTC signaled territory. Yes, New Orleans to Flomaton AL was fairly overwhelmed with traffic, but not to the same level as El Paso to Los Angeles. The only serious dog leg in the route is Mobile to Pensacola, which is around 55 miles on I-10 versus around 80 by the railroad. I will skip the very logical reason behind that situation occurring during the railroad building era.

As to the no demand claim: The pre-Amtrak train on this route (Jacksonville to New Orleans) lasted all the way to A-day. Even into the mid 60's it had a round end observation car.

Yes, it is slower than driving on the more or less parallel I-10, but there are a lot of trains that are slower than driving on the parallel interstate that carry a reasonable volume of passengers.

 

[Texan Eagle]

Sunset East resulted in OTP as low as 1.5% and the route was and is terribly slow, a third of it running in dark territory limited to 59mph. That is not appealing at all for short distance riders and you cannot run a train successfully without them.

http://www.cityofmobile.org/railsummit/2012-08-13%20Stennis%20Mobile%20v1.pdf

There is absolutely no reason to spend tens of millions of dollars to restore a multimillion dollar losing segment of a route that provides bad local service with minimal patronage and simply makes maps look nicer to rail fans.

If the southern route is agonizingly slow and painful, would it be rather a better use of money to upgrade to passenger service level a route little higher up, something that probably branches off from Longview or Marshall towards Sherveport, Jackson, connecting to the Crescent route at Meridian or Tuscaloosa whichever feasible, going up to Atlanta and from there onwards to Savannah? Something like this-

This is just a rough render, I am not sure where exactly existing tracks of any sort are, but I am fairly positive there would be some tracks considering how dense the rail network in the country is, it is only a question of upgrading them to passenger train standards. There can be a train starting from Dallas/Fort Worth (picking connecting passengers from Texas Eagle) running to Atlanta or Savannah, connecting to Crescent and Silver service to Florida somewhere there. A lot of southern cities would get a train service, and trans-continental passengers would get an alternate route that does not require looooong detour via Chicago.

And did I mention this can happen when pigs would fly?

 

[7deuceman]

Here is a link to one of the latest discussions regarding a return to service NOL - JAX. There seems to be a Chicago-Florida component to the story, likely being an extension of the City of New Orleans...

From WNYC - FM radio New York www.wnyc.org (Story 283449)

Friday, August 24, 2012, by Alex Goldmark

7 years After Katrina Washed It Away, Mayors, Amtrak Considering Gulf Coast Rail Bigger Than Before

www.wnyc,org/story/283449-7-years-after-katrina-washed-it-away-mayors-amtrak-considering-gulf-coast-rail-bigger-than-before/

My apology, you'll have to cut/paste the URL address to your browser. The link function would not work with my Computer OS, after several attempts.

Also, please see the Amtrak Unlimited thread: Chicago to Florida

Thank you to all that have responded to my thoughts and Texan Eagle, that is a great map!

 

[Anderson]

The Sunset East is a major hole in the Amtrak system. Unfortunately, it's only one of a number of similar gaps and shortcomings, and it's not even the most troublesome in many regards.

 

[njulian]

I thank you all for your input..What a convoluted mess. I wil probably have to just take Southwest to Ordlando and spend the whole time wondering which shake will bring us down or when the engine will explode and being squashed by others in my row of seats and pray I don't have to use the restroom.

 

[Ryan]

The flight really won't be that bad.

 

[henryj]

Julian, like I said, if you really want to go by train, just drive to Albuquerque and take the SWC through Chicago. It's third morning delivery which isn't that bad. What I usually do, since I live in Houston, is to take the train one way and fly back or sometimes fly to my train ride and fly back. You can rent a car one way if you are going to fly back or park in the long term parking, which is available there. It's I25 all the way to Alb.

 

[John Bobinyec]

Rent a car and drive between NOL and Florida.

jb

 

[Nathanael]

I am fairly positive there would be some tracks considering how dense the rail network in the country is, it is only a question of upgrading them to passenger train standards.

Yep, it's always "just" a question of upgrading the tracks...

And did I mention this can happen when pigs would fly?

 

[battalion51]

The whole trip was extremely slow compared to highway times. By highway from Pensacola to Jacksonville you can do the trip in 6 hours if you drive a very conservative 60 MPH (361 miles from the AL/FL border to Downtown JAX), probably closer to 5 if you make no stops and travel the posted speed limit. However, by rail it was about a 9 hour run. The trip from New Orleans to Pensacola has an even larger disparity. According to Google Maps its about a 3 hour drive from New Orleans to Pensacola, by rail it was an 8 hour trip. So in total it was a 17 hour trip for something that could easily be driven in a very conservative 8-9 hours.

To compound problems for ridership the train only ran three days a week, and had very poor calling times from Crestview, FL to Bay St. Louis, MS. If you were to re-instate the train as a daily day train (coaches, lounge, business class), with less fluff in the schedule, it's possible it might be competitive. The challenge with a day train though is it would likely only provide connections in Jacksonville to 91/92 on the north end of their runs, not the south end. In New Orleans you'd have no connections that wouldn't require an overnight. Additionally, because of PRIIA requirements, the train could not be run to Orlando as it's 769 miles from Orlando to New Orleans, 19 miles too long. Theoretically if the states had the will power to seek a waiver they could, but it would add another 3 hours to a 16-17 hour trip, which starts to create poor calling times and likely would necessitate a third trainset. JAX-NOL could be done with just two trainsets.

 

[henryj]

The New Orleans to Jacksonville route has never been very fast even when the railroads ran the Gulf Wind. If the train continued on with the current schedule, with a two hour layover in NOL, it would arrive in Orlando at 9:45pm. Leaving it would depart at 11:45am arriving in NOL at 7:20 the next morning. I drove from Houston to Orlando in one day and also the same back. Driving, you don't go through Jax, you take the cutoff to Orlando. Even Greyhound lists it as a 14 hour or more trip from NOL. Until someone takes train travel seriously and builds a cutoff across Mobile Bay parallel to I10 and installs some signals in the dark territory, this route will always be slow for rail. But even then, the route between NOL and Jax is 617 miles. So if you could average 50mph you would still be looking at a 12 hour run, with another 3 or more hours to Orlando. The Sunset on it's current schedule would always require an overnight journey between NOL and Jax. It's just a no win situation for Amtrak or any other agency. Eventually, Florida may start up rail service between Jax and Tallahassee/Pensacola and Louisiana could initiate sprint trains between Mobile and NOL. But Mobile to Pensacola is a bottle neck and excruciatingly slow.

 

[SarahZ]

I thank you all for your input..What a convoluted mess. I wil probably have to just take Southwest to Ordlando and spend the whole time wondering which shake will bring us down or when the engine will explode and being squashed by others in my row of seats and pray I don't have to use the restroom.

Turbulence does not damage the plane, and the engine will not explode. If you are afraid of flying, perhaps your doctor can prescribe something?

I truly understand your fear. I am not afraid of flying, but my boyfriend is so terrified that even medication does not help. If the train doesn't go there, we drive, even if it means 20 hours in a car. So, I do sympathize. I would recommend either driving or taking a bus if you're that afraid of flying.

 

[Alexandria Nick]

You have a better chance of being mauled by a raccoon on board the train than you do of an in-flight compressor failure.

 

[Nathanael]

Additionally, because of PRIIA requirements, the train could not be run to Orlando as it's 769 miles from Orlando to New Orleans, 19 miles too long.

That's not how the PRIIA rules actually work. I looked this up. The "uniform cost-sharing rule" applies to1) High-speed rail corridors designated by the Secretary of Transportation, other than the Boston to Washington spine of the NEC; and

(2) Contracts for "Amtrak to operate an intercity rail service or route not included in the national rail passenger transportation system"

The relevant text for funding is:

Sec. 24702. Transportation requested by States, authorities, and other persons

`(a) Contracts for Transportation- Amtrak may enter into a contract with a State, a regional or local authority, or another person for Amtrak to operate an intercity rail service or route not included in the national rail passenger transportation system upon such terms as the parties thereto may agree.

The way the national rail passenger transportation system is defined is kind of convoluted, but basically any route which isn't currently operating is not part of it.

So Florida could pay for any new service at all, if it liked, including a Chicago to Florida service. Amtrak is required to offer the standard cost-sharing methodology for such service.

The best way I've found to describe the rules is this:

- Amtrak can't operate unprofitable less-than-750-mile routes without state support, nor can it operate an unprofitable route on a designated high-speed-rail corridor without state support;

- and there must be a standardized metholodogy for charging states for the unprofitable services.

Amtrak can operate whatever profitable routes it likes.

Amtrak can operate unprofitable long-distance routes without state support. Amtrak can take state money for any route whatsoever.

And as far as I can tell, Amtrak can add any unprofitable long-distance route it likes, although it's discouraged from doing so.

There's a *separate* set of provisions allowing the FRA to withhold funds for Amtrak's long-distance routes if it doesn't think the PIPs are being implemented, FWIW -- section 24710(d).