Yearly Crescent trackwork truncation to Atlanta 2014

[Nathanael]

I understand the need for trackwork but the host railroad should still be able to accomodate the passenger train during that time.

These types of curfew blitzes are typically the best way to safely and quickly accomplish things, and its not just NS that does this.

It's the standard method for maintenance on the London Underground in recent years.

 

[benjibear]

I understand the need for trackwork but the host railroad should still be able to accomodate the passenger train during that time.

Actually they can't operate while the work is being done. NS crews work extra hours to get the work finished and it is NS that determines when this track upgrade work will be scheduled, so while Amtrak could put an alert in the timetable or online, they generally have to wait for NS to set the final dates.

My point is that NS should not be allowed to shut down this line for that length of time. Just imagine if other modes of transportation did this. If somebody tried to shut down a major interstate for 4 days a week or major airport runway, there would be such an uproar. NS should be able to schedule their work around the Amtrak train. There may be some understandable delays but to cancel the train is not acceptable in my opinion.

Does this happen anywhere else?

 

[haolerider]

I understand the need for trackwork but the host railroad should still be able to accomodate the passenger train during that time.

Actually they can't operate while the work is being done. NS crews work extra hours to get the work finished and it is NS that determines when this track upgrade work will be scheduled, so while Amtrak could put an alert in the timetable or online, they generally have to wait for NS to set the final dates.

My point is that NS should not be allowed to shut down this line for that length of time. Just imagine if other modes of transportation did this. If somebody tried to shut down a major interstate for 4 days a week or major airport runway, there would be such an uproar. NS should be able to schedule their work around the Amtrak train. There may be some understandable delays but to cancel the train is not acceptable in my opinion.

Does this happen anywhere else?

THis has been working for many years and is a very efficient way to get needed track work accomplished. Atlanta to New Orleans is a typically sparsely used route at this time of the year and NS and Amtrak know what they are doing. I don't know if this is done elsewhere, but it works in this situation.

 

[Ryan]

Fortunately, that question has already been answered right here in this thread.

I understand the need for trackwork but the host railroad should still be able to accomodate the passenger train during that time.

These types of curfew blitzes are typically the best way to safely and quickly accomplish things, and its not just NS that does this. UP does this pretty regularly with the Coast Starlight, Texas Eagle, and Lincoln Service. CSX did this just last month with Silver Service and the Carolinian. SunRail seems to be doing the same with Silver Service, and occasionally Auto Train. Sometimes these shut downs turn into something coveted such as a detour. I think there is even a thread going right now about when UP will be detouring the Starlight through the inland route so reservations can be made! In most cases it isn't ideal to have the train shut down, but at least in the case of this work with NS they're doing it during off-peak travel months on off-peak days.

 

[cirdan]

First, it's a *lot* slower than driving.

On the NEC, of course, the Crescent is faster than driving; and from Washington DC to Greensboro NC the Crescent is only a little slower than driving (5:45 vs. 4:45). From Greensboro to Atlanta it's substantially worse (7:34 vs. 4:55) but it has the benefit of overnight running, and of course it's mostly through trips headed north of Greensboro.

But south of Atlanta, it's *much* worse. Atlanta to New Orleans is 11:30 vs. 6:38 driving.

The NS tracks from Atlanta to New Orleans are part of their Crescent Corridor route. The Crescent Corridor is the subject of a $2.5 billion improvement program with some of that money coming from the feds and states. The question is whether the Atlanta to New Orleans segment is slated to get upgrades that will allow the Crescent train trip times to improve south of Atlanta. Not by a lot I would expect, however.
The NS tracks north of Atlanta will see trip time and reliability improvements in the next 3-4 years with the Piedmont corridor Greensboro to Charlotte upgrades and VA paying for a double tracking project and likely other upgrades between Manassas and Lynchburg for the Lynchhburg-Roanoke Regionals.

The NS Crescent Corridor map is below for those not familiar with it. If Virginia pays for passenger service upgrades to Roanoke and then Bristol, VA, the map shows the possibilities for a NYP to Memphis train if TN was someday interested in helping to fund it.

Thanks for those explanations.

I understand why it's unlikely that NS will be putting much money into the line south of Birmingham. But surely if they upgrade track further north, that also decreases end to end journey times and makes the entire route more competitive, including the bits that aren't getting any faster. There's quite a lot you can do with $2.5 billion. I can't imagine spending that much without there being some visible improvement.

 

[afigg]

My point is that NS should not be allowed to shut down this line for that length of time. Just imagine if other modes of transportation did this. If somebody tried to shut down a major interstate for 4 days a week or major airport runway, there would be such an uproar. NS should be able to schedule their work around the Amtrak train. There may be some understandable delays but to cancel the train is not acceptable in my opinion.

Does this happen anywhere else?

The Carolinian recently went through a few weeks of Monday to Thursday interruptions running only between Charlotte and Raleigh on those days. The railroad wants a 8-10 hour block during daylight for crews to do track work and if there is no viable re-route available for Amtrak, then it is either bus around it, shift the train schedule, or cancel service over the affected segment.
As for transit systems and highways, service interruptions on weekends, lasting the entire weekend have become more common in recent years to save on maintenance and repair costs. It is less efficient and more expensive to have a crew close the road or transit line at 1 AN, work for 3 hours, and then put everything back in time for morning rush hour. With a 1 or 2 day shutdown, a lot more can be done in one big push. The DC Metro and the NYC Subway have adopted a program of weekend service interruptions with buses or alternate routes to move people around the closed line segment undergoing maintenance.

 

[henryj]

The difference between the Crescent and other services is that no alternative transportation is provided. It's as if this train south of Atlanta just doesn't count. When the Eagle track work was done Amtrak provided a bus bridge as they do on most operations of this kind. But not the Crescent.

 

[Ryan]

Not true in the case of the Auto Train, Silvers (I think) and Carolinian (I think).

 

[cirdan]

Not true in the case of the Auto Train, Silvers (I think) and Carolinian (I think).

how would one bus the auto train?

 

[afigg]

The difference between the Crescent and other services is that no alternative transportation is provided. It's as if this train south of Atlanta just doesn't count. When the Eagle track work was done Amtrak provided a bus bridge as they do on most operations of this kind. But not the Crescent.

Amtrak did not provide a bus bridge for the Carolinian either. However, the Silver Star provided an alternative at Raleigh and the Crescent for the Greensboro to Charlotte segment for trips to the NEC, even if the arrival/departure times in NC were not great. I expect Amtrak ran the numbers for the Crescent shutdown south of Atlanta and decided that a bus bridge would be too costly as a trade-off against upset customers.

 

[Ryan]

Not true in the case of the Auto Train, Silvers (I think) and Carolinian (I think).

how would one bus the auto train?

That's why I was sure that one didn't get a bus.

 

[Tennessee Traveler]

First, it's a *lot* slower than driving.

On the NEC, of course, the Crescent is faster than driving; and from Washington DC to Greensboro NC the Crescent is only a little slower than driving (5:45 vs. 4:45). From Greensboro to Atlanta it's substantially worse (7:34 vs. 4:55) but it has the benefit of overnight running, and of course it's mostly through trips headed north of Greensboro.

But south of Atlanta, it's *much* worse. Atlanta to New Orleans is 11:30 vs. 6:38 driving.

The NS tracks from Atlanta to New Orleans are part of their Crescent Corridor route. The Crescent Corridor is the subject of a $2.5 billion improvement program with some of that money coming from the feds and states. The question is whether the Atlanta to New Orleans segment is slated to get upgrades that will allow the Crescent train trip times to improve south of Atlanta. Not by a lot I would expect, however.
The NS tracks north of Atlanta will see trip time and reliability improvements in the next 3-4 years with the Piedmont corridor Greensboro to Charlotte upgrades and VA paying for a double tracking project and likely other upgrades between Manassas and Lynchburg for the Lynchhburg-Roanoke Regionals.

The NS Crescent Corridor map is below for those not familiar with it. If Virginia pays for passenger service upgrades to Roanoke and then Bristol, VA, the map shows the possibilities for a NYP to Memphis train if TN was someday interested in helping to fund it.

Thanks for those explanations.

I understand why it's unlikely that NS will be putting much money into the line south of Birmingham. But surely if they upgrade track further north, that also decreases end to end journey times and makes the entire route more competitive, including the bits that aren't getting any faster. There's quite a lot you can do with $2.5 billion. I can't imagine spending that much without there being some visible improvement.

As a Nashville, Tennessee resident, I am sure Tennessee will NEVER be willing to spend money for a route across Tennessee that actually bypasses the STATE CAPITOL Nashville and actually goes from Chattanooga to Memphis through Alabama and Mississippi.

 

[fairviewroad]

They should just re-route the Crescent down to Jacksonville and then west to New Orleans. For the life of me I can't understand

why that plan would not work.

 

[cassie225]

They should just re-route the Crescent down to Jacksonville and then west to New Orleans. For the life of me I can't understand

why that plan would not work.

Love that idea. lol I was one of the upset customers-not even notified. Had I not read this thread I would have not known anything. But Amtrak telephone operator was so nice I got over being upset. Got the same price so I was very happy.

 

[haolerider]

They should just re-route the Crescent down to Jacksonville and then west to New Orleans. For the life of me I can't understand

why that plan would not work.

Why would you backtrack all the way to the east coast of Florida and then make the long and slow run to New Orleans? Makes no sense at all! Plus the tracks from Atlanta would have to be cleared to accommodate the train. Not happening!

 

[fairviewroad]

They should just re-route the Crescent down to Jacksonville and then west to New Orleans. For the life of me I can't understand

why that plan would not work.

Why would you backtrack all the way to the east coast of Florida and then make the long and slow run to New Orleans? Makes no sense at all! Plus the tracks from Atlanta would have to be cleared to accommodate the train. Not happening!

Relax. It was a joke.

 

[xyzzy]

I don't look for much in the way of track improvements between Charlotte and Atlanta. Freight traffic on that part of the ex-Southern main line is comparatively light, especially south of Greenville. The upper route via Front Royal, Roanoke, Knoxville, and Chattanooga will get the majority of Crescent Corridor funding.

CSX Atlanta-Montgomery (the former A&WP/WofA) is, for the most part, as curvy as NS Atlanta-Birmingham. This was not a fast passenger segment even in the 1960s. The ex-L&N Montgomery-Mobile has fast running speeds, but it's circuitous compared to I-65. The ex-L&N Mobile-New Orleans is often congested.

The ex-Southern between Birmingham and Meridian is a fast, relatively straight and flat railroad. Sadly, the solution to the problems Atlanta-Birmingham would have been to run the train over the ex-SAL -- a far better-built route than NS. The Southern Crescent sometimes detoured over the ex-SAL and arrived early. CSX abandoned much of the route in 1988.

 

[bml43]

Amtrak just contacted me a little earlier today - I was going to be riding from NYP to NOL, leaving January 8th. Luckily, I was able to be slightly flexible, and they moved me to the 9th. So I'll be leaving Thursday the 9th, and I guess we won't hit Atlanta until the 10th, when the track will be back open.

Could have been bad, but it worked out.

 

[Jay]

I agree; the tendency of Amtrak (or whoever they want to blame it on) to simply cancel service for days at a time at the drop of a hat makes me not take it very seriously as a transportation option in general. You see this frequently in the NEC when there's bad storm, a power line falls down, or even a train hitting someone at a single location. Are there really so few railroad tracks that it's impossible to route trains around these issues? Amtrak needs to start treating itself as a serious option for reliable travel, rather than a seasonal amusement park ride, if it wants to gain ridership.

 

[rrdude]

I just "got the call" too and am hosed, as a co-worker and myself were going to our annual conference in NOL, now our only "train choice" is DC --> CHI --> NOL. I like that, not so sure my co-worker will..........

 

[Ryan]

I agree; the tendency of Amtrak (or whoever they want to blame it on) to simply cancel service for days at a time at the drop of a hat makes me not take it very seriously as a transportation option in general. You see this frequently in the NEC when there's bad storm, a power line falls down, or even a train hitting someone at a single location. Are there really so few railroad tracks that it's impossible to route trains around these issues? Amtrak needs to start treating itself as a serious option for reliable travel, rather than a seasonal amusement park ride, if it wants to gain ridership.

I'm not sure what part of "Norfolk Southern closed the tracks, Amtrak has no choice" is unclear.
Given that Amtrak is setting ridership records year after year, your concern seems invalid.

 

[MattW]

I can actually see Jay's point. Admittedly, Amtrak handles the Crescent a bit better than the Palm Beach safety patrol garbage, but there really should be more than a month's notice, and given this is a yearly event, some kind of notification at time of booking.

 

[the_traveler]

I agree; the tendency of Amtrak (or whoever they want to blame it on) to simply cancel service ... Are there really so few railroad tracks that it's impossible to route trains around these issues? Amtrak needs to start treating itself as a serious option for reliable travel, rather than a seasonal amusement park ride, if it wants to gain ridership.

The answer is yes, there are that few tracks now. And Amtrak itself does not own most of the tracks they run trains on. Except for the Northeast Corridor and some tracks in Michigan, all trains run on tracks owned by each individual freight railroad. They are the bosses. (You can't call up General Motors, Macy's or some supermarket and tell them to open at 2 am because you work and can't get there at any other time - can you? :huh: )
When air and auto travel increased in the 1940's and 1950's, railroads began abandoning routes and removing their tracks.

 

[fairviewroad]

I'm not sure what part of "Norfolk Southern closed the tracks, Amtrak has no choice" is unclear.
Given that Amtrak is setting ridership records year after year, your concern seems invalid.

I agree that Amtrak is limited in its options vis-a-vis re-routing its trains, but there's nothing to prevent

Amtrak from providing a replacement bus, so that people who bought their tickets months in advance

don't have to scramble to make alternate arrangements. I don't think robust ridership levels absolve

Amtrak of its responsibility to act in a responsible manner towards its customers. Calling people and

letting them re-schedule to a different day is good, but they could do more.

 

[benjibear]

I don't care how little ridership is between those two points. The train should continue to run. I think it is a slippery slope to allow this portion of the Amtrak system to shut down. It is going to set a precedence and quite possibly allow the portion of this route to be terminated indefinably.