Wolverine Service Delays

[debmep]

Just saw that Amtrak posted a brand new Service Delay Alert for the Wolverine Line. Does anyone know if it will affect the Pere Marquette? Train numbers 370 & 371 are not listed as in the Alert but I would think that they travel on some of the same tracks as the Wolverine lines. We leave next Thursday from GRR to ABQ so I do have a vested interest.

 

[rrdude]

Just saw that Amtrak posted a brand new Service Delay Alert for the Wolverine Line. Does anyone know if it will affect the Pere Marquette? Train numbers 370 & 371 are not listed as in the Alert but I would think that they travel on some of the same tracks as the Wolverine lines. We leave next Thursday from GRR to ABQ so I do have a vested interest.

I wouldn't worry about it, most, (most) of the delays are due to NS track that is slow-ordered, and getting set for rehab, EAST of K-Zoo. The PM joins the CHI-DET mainline well west of K-Zoo

 

[afigg]

The NS slow orders do not affect the Pere Marquette. But they will cause significant delays for the Wolverine and to a lesser extent, the Blue Water. The problem is serious enough that Amtrak put out a rather blunt press release blaming NS for the problem. Since this will have significant impact on Wolverine and Blue Water service, possibly for months, going to quote the news release at length:

CHICAGO – Norfolk Southern Railway (NS) has ordered passenger trains to slow to 25-to-30 mph on certain Michigan track segments it owns and controls between Kalamazoo and Ann Arbor, starting today. These restrictions from previous top speeds of up to 79 mph have an even larger impact than those imposed by NS last year. Amtrak is advising passengers to expect delays of 45 to 90 minutes on Wolverine Service trains to and from Chicago and Detroit/Pontiac, including Jackson and Dearborn, with lesser delays on the Amtrak Blue Water to and from Chicago and Port Huron, via East Lansing and Flint.

“The decision by Norfolk Southern to reduce train speeds on the track shared with the Amtrak Wolverine and Blue Water services will have a serious impact on passenger service, and could cause delays for freight shippers, too,” said Tim Hoeffner, director of the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT) Office of Rail.

“Last year, MDOT invested millions of dollars to upgrade this line at the state’s expense, and we hope Norfolk Southern will bear that in mind and work to minimize slow-downs that inconvenience businesses and travelers,” Hoeffner added.

The duration of the service delays is unknown. NS has said it would begin track improvement work in three weeks. Amtrak will issue a detailed Passenger Service Notice when more details are available.

Note the pointed comment on temporary repairs, unusual for a news release:

“Amtrak believes that temporary repairs could be made promptly by NS to significantly reduce the impact of these slow orders,” said Paul Vilter, Amtrak Assistant Vice President, after Amtrak engineering experts inspected the NS-owned portion of the route earlier this week.

Passengers affected by this service disruption can use the Amtrak Blue Water trains at East Lansing and Flint or Amtrak Thruway Motorcoaches as a substitute means to reach Central, Southern and Eastern Michigan. Amtrak Lake Shore Limited and Capitol Limited trains in Toledo and at Waterloo, Elkhart and South Bend, Ind., are another alternate choice. The Amtrak Pere Marquette trains to and from Grand Rapids via Holland and St. Joseph-Benton Harbor are not affected by the NS action and can also be an option for some passengers.

“Ridership was just returning to normal since the last service disruption and lowered speeds in the summer of 2011,” Savoy added.

From October 2011 through February 2012, ridership on Amtrak Wolverine Service (Trains 350-355, three daily round-trips, Pontiac-Detroit-Ann Arbor-Chicago) was 184,781; Amtrak Blue Water (Trains 364 & 365, one daily round-trip, Port Huron-East Lansing-Chicago) was 71,572; and the Amtrak Pere Marquette (Trains 370 & 371, one daily round-trip, Grand Rapids-Chicago) was 40,785. All three routes posted year-to-year gains in February ridership.

The slow orders from NS come while it is negotiating to complete the sale of the line to the State of Michigan. These orders come less than four weeks after a celebration of increased speeds up to 110 mph on the Amtrak-owned portion of this line in Western Michigan and Northwest Indiana.

Amtrak is clearly getting rather irritated with NS. Michigan and NS need to get the sale of the 135 miles of track done so maintenance and track upgrades can get started.

 

[debmep]

Thank you both for the information and help. I really appreciate it.

 

[Blackwolf]

Sounds to me like Amtrak and MDOT were virtually "blindsided" with the NS slow orders. From a marketing standpoint, a disaster considering the amount of press and attention has been directed at the 110-mph speed increase a month ago. So, the line segments effected are the same being sold to Michigan? Has there been an souring of that deal, one that would make NS pull a slow-order routine to give Amtrak and Michigan a black eye on purpose?

Amtrak, in the press release, is indeed blunt. I would even wager they are more than that, and just simmering beneath the Political Correctness is some rage as well. I'll be some choice words flew when the order hit VP Vilter's office!!

 

[amtrakwolverine]

Sounds like NS is being a dick and wanting amtrak to buy all NS lines the wolverine rides on. This is stupid they just bought a section of NS track and Now NS wants amtrak to buy more from them. Too bad amtrak can't take NS to court over breach of contract. This also means Im going to be at least 90 minutes late for NTD.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Back to the original topic, I do not think the PM will get affected whatsoever by the delays, either.

 

[Trogdor]

Sounds like NS is being a dick and wanting amtrak to buy all NS lines the wolverine rides on. This is stupid they just bought a section of NS track and Now NS wants amtrak to buy more from them. Too bad amtrak can't take NS to court over breach of contract. This also means Im going to be at least 90 minutes late for NTD.

I don't know what you're talking about here.

Michigan (not Amtrak) is in the process of buying the entire NS Michigan Line (Kalamazoo to Dearborn, save the portion around Battle Creek that is owned by the CN). The deal has not closed yet, but is still in the works.

There is no other track in question that NS wants anyone to buy.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

I thought amtrak owns the one section of NS line now that was on speed restriction last year no? This is another stretch that NS wants amtrak to buy.

 

[white rabbitt]

so that puts the wolverine into chicago at what time

it leaves royal oak at 6am it was a spose to arrive in chicago at 11:3o am

what is the arrival time do to this work stoppage by ns

 

[amtrakwolverine]

so that puts the wolverine into chicago at what time

it leaves royal oak at 6am it was a spose to arrive in chicago at 11:3o am

what is the arrival time do to this work stoppage by ns

about 1PM

 

[Trogdor]

I thought amtrak owns the one section of NS line now that was on speed restriction last year no? This is another stretch that NS wants amtrak to buy.

No. The Amtrak-owned portion is between Porter, IN and Kalamazoo. That has been Amtrak's line for a long time, and was never owned by the NS. The stuff NS owns east of there has not changed hands since the Conrail split.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

so amtrak doesn't now own the section from Dearborn to West Detroit which had the original slow order last year?

 

[AlanB]

so amtrak doesn't now own the section from Dearborn to West Detroit which had the original slow order last year?

No, not yet. The deal hasn't been finalized yet. They agreed on things, but the title transfer hasn't occurred yet.

Now this could be NS trying to force everyone to move faster, or it could just be a real and unexpected issue. And if NS doesn't deal with it quick enough, they could find themselves facing the same situation that UP saw a few years ago when Amtrak threatened to take them to court because of the amount of slow orders.

And it's actually the State of Michigan that's buying the line from NS. I'm not sure if they plan to retain ownership of the line or transfer it to Amtrak. Amtrak will of course dispatch it and maintain it, regardless of who holds the title to the tracks.

 

[Eric S]

As Trogdor stated, the state of Michigan will be purchasing the line from Kalamazoo to Dearborn. Amtrak currently owns the segment west of Kalamazoo to Porter, IN. I don't believe there have been any ownership changes planned (or announced) for the line east of Dearborn, meaning it will remain the current hodge-podge of CN, CR, NS, and a section between Dearborn and West Detroit (perhaps one track on a two-track section?) that Amtrak has owned since the 1990s.

 

[Trogdor]

and a section between Dearborn and West Detroit (perhaps one track on a two-track section?) that Amtrak has owned since the 1990s.

I must admit, I've never heard this before. East of Dearborn, it's NS to CP Townline (not very far, maybe a mile or so), then Conrail to Vinewood, then CN on up to Pontiac. Never seen any mention of Amtrak partial ownership on any of those segments. Amtrak certainly doesn't dispatch anything over there.

Any pointers on where one might find more detail on this?

 

[Eric S]

and a section between Dearborn and West Detroit (perhaps one track on a two-track section?) that Amtrak has owned since the 1990s.

I must admit, I've never heard this before. East of Dearborn, it's NS to CP Townline (not very far, maybe a mile or so), then Conrail to Vinewood, then CN on up to Pontiac. Never seen any mention of Amtrak partial ownership on any of those segments. Amtrak certainly doesn't dispatch anything over there.

Any pointers on where one might find more detail on this?

I don't have a very satisfying answer at this point. The wikipedia page for the Wolverine (Amtrak) mentions it, but that is not what I was relying on. An old issue of Trains magazine that focused on the Detroit area mentions it, but I'll have to dig through my collection to see if I can find which issue it is.

EDIT: Trains magazine June 2003. Amtrak owns a 4.5 mile stretch of Track 1, between West Detroit and CP Townline (the point where NS owns west of and CR owns Track 2 east of). The Amtrak/CR stretch is dispatched by CR (or was in 2003). I am assuming that the article was correct in 2003 and is still accurate today, but have no more recent information.

 

[afigg]

And it's actually the State of Michigan that's buying the line from NS. I'm not sure if they plan to retain ownership of the line or transfer it to Amtrak. Amtrak will of course dispatch it and maintain it, regardless of who holds the title to the tracks.

The reports I have read on the sale of the NS line is that Michigan will be buying it with no statements that MI will be turning ownership of the 135 miles of ROW over to Amtrak. If Amtrak does not get ownership, the state will probably formally lease it to Amtrak with Amtrak taking full responsibility for maintenance, dispatching, management of the track and signal upgrade work.

While the details on all the agreements and contracts are getting hammered out, NS and Amtrak are getting into a bit of a tiff over the new slow orders.

NS put out a press release yesterday, saying that they are willing to maintain the tracks if and when they get paid to do so. There must be an underlying disagreement on how much NS is to be paid for maintenance while NS still owns and is responsible for the tracks.

 

[Old MM]

West of Kzoo, the 110 limit could help make up a little time that was lost to the east. With a 1 pm projected arrival time into Chicago, it sounds like the LD train connections should hold up. I am thinking the delays will be worse going eastbound CHI-DET, as they will be penalized in favor of the westbound Wolverine with connections to make. The GRR train should not be affected at all.. hopefully...

 

[amtrakwolverine]

NS is just being a bully and amtrak needs to grow a backbone and stand up to the bullys.

 

[fairviewroad]

NS is just being a bully and amtrak needs to grow a backbone and stand up to the bullys.

How, exactly, do you propose they do that in this particular case?

Amtrak orders its engineers to ignore the NS signals and run at regular speed? = disaster

Amtrak, in a huff, cancels service along the route? = victory for NS

Amtrak issues terse press release letting the public know who's really at fault? = done

Not sure what else there is to do, unless you count behind-closed-doors negotiations, which may very well be happening anyway. But at the end of the day, NS holds the ace cards on this one.

 

[Donctor]

Amtrak, in a huff, cancels service along the route? = victory for NS

I don't think NS wants Amtrak off the tracks. Seems like what they want is for Michigan to just buy the damn thing and be rid of it. If anything gives Michigan incentive to back out—such as the loss of passenger train service—NS loses.

 

[fairviewroad]

Amtrak, in a huff, cancels service along the route? = victory for NS

I don't think NS wants Amtrak off the tracks. Seems like what they want is for Michigan to just buy the damn thing and be rid of it. If anything gives Michigan incentive to back out—such as the loss of passenger train service—NS loses.

Perhaps so, but cancelling service would still be a loss for passengers...so it's not a viable way of "standing up to the bullies."

 

[AlanB]

NS is just being a bully and amtrak needs to grow a backbone and stand up to the bullys.

How, exactly, do you propose they do that in this particular case?

Amtrak orders its engineers to ignore the NS signals and run at regular speed? = disaster

Amtrak, in a huff, cancels service along the route? = victory for NS

Amtrak issues terse press release letting the public know who's really at fault? = done

Not sure what else there is to do, unless you count behind-closed-doors negotiations, which may very well be happening anyway. But at the end of the day, NS holds the ace cards on this one.

They can file a complaint with the FRA.

 

[fairviewroad]

They can file a complaint with the FRA.

And probably should, in this case...though that probably won't do much in the short term.