Why not the train? Let's count reasons while waiti

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Joined
Jun 19, 2003
Messages
1,805
Location
Harrison Michigan
I saw the Amtrak station and asked, "Why not?"

Isn't some kind of railroading the form of transportation we're considering as the solution to some of Florida's problems? If we're thinking of buying one, somebody ought to take it for a test drive. Instead of another tedious 10-hour drive, this would be a $47 ticket to enlightenment, a 17-hour investment in informed citizenship.

All aboard Amtrak -- Mobile, Ala. to Winter Park.

It didn't take long to come up with at least one excellent answer to that "Why not?" question.

Story
 
Well, that's a rather dim-witted traveler. Let me get this straight: They announced that they were serving meals? And they didn't operate a 24-hour dining room on the train? That's amazing.
 
Jake Vest (who is the author of this story), from what I know of him is a sensible person. I used to read his comic strip titled "That's Jake" religiously every morning. Good ole country boy humor at its best! Anyway, his argument is just as legitimate as all the other passengers I deal with. If the passengers could make plans, and actually know they can pretty much bank on them, then the rest of problems with the train in general would be less exposed. THE AVERAGE PASSENGER WANTS TO BE ONTIME! That is not an unreasonable thing to ask of the transportation carrier one is using. Yes, crap happens all the time, but every single day! Almost every single trip I work, the train is late at least one direction. It may get into the end point ontime, but how is it right to make someone who is going to say Charleston, SC be over an hour late into their station? They need to be able to make their plans, too. Passengers usually are not overly upset if the train gets them to their destination within thirty to fourty five minutes after the scheduled time! But start getting over an hour late, and then they start getting really anxious. The average railfan doesn't care for the most part. They just wanna be on the train. As employees, we like to be ontime, too. It is hard to plan anything when you don't know what time you're gonna get home. That is what the schedule is for! So as I read Mr. Vest's story, yes he is exagerating the point a bit, but his main beef is the OTP! Of course human nature steps in and he sees any negative point from then on for the most part. This how the general public tends to be in any service industry, period!

As far as his point regarding the meal announcements, if in fact they made the call at 7:30 in the AM, that is just a bit too early especially if the announcement went through the sleepers. Usually 8:00-8:30 AM is the right time to announce meal service in the coaches and after 10:00 announcements can be made in the sleepers. He is ignorant of the fact a diner must shut down in order to prepare for the next meal, but 9 AM is too early. In route the last call is 9:30 AM and diner closes at 10 AM. But is nice to hear they were making announcements! Some crews are terrible in that dept. As far as offering an apology for the late arrival at his stop, we gotta remember this was the "Sunset Limited" he rode! And the employees are used to being late all the time, and probably didn't give it any thought. No that's not a good excuse, and I am guilty of the same myself sometimes. But chalk it up as another late train is the mindset sometimes. I will say, however, (and not justifying Amtrak to be late everyday) of my personal opinions regarding lateness to all passengers is the following; I feel more of an obligation as an OBS employee to those passengers who have already been on the train while it was ontime. If the train picked them up ontime, I understand their being upset a little more than someone (though I see their point, too) who is at the station and may already know the train is late (providing they either called the 800 number or talked to a station agent at a staffed stop). When I know my train, bus, or flight is late, then I MAKE THE CHOICE whether to go or exercise my other options! Passengers seem to forget this fact! They have a choice if they have the information and know the train they are catching is late! They are go another day, take the bus, drive, or stay home! If they can't exercise any other option (such as being away from home, etc), then I understand. But that is the way the general public is! So I guess try to understand each passenger, anyway.

I know I have made this long, but OTP is one of my biggest issues with the company I work! Bad employee attitudes are, too when I encounter them. Amtrak is doing what they can do with the bad attitudes of certain employees. I believe Mr Gunn is trying to do what he can regarding OTP. The situation with the "Sunset Limited" is a great example. It is better at least on the end points than what it was before (at least I see it getting here to FL on a more "timely" basis). But Mr Gunn can't do it alone. There needs to be better incentives in place for the freights to do their part. Mr Vest already knows that answer despite his complaints. If more money would be poured into the rail infrastructure as a whole, with Amtrak being funded appropriately to the purpose it was/and should have been intended for (I sometimes feel Amtrak was created for other reasons in which I can't go there on the boards), then I believe we could have a good passenger rail system here in our country!

Memeber bat51, writes in another thread, "Not going bankrupt is a good first step so that there are cars period, getting the Acelas back is number two, then adding capactiy is number three."

Reform regarding OTP with the long distance trains should fit in there somewhere, too. That would really help Amtrak's credibility. I know there are times when OTP is gonna be shot dead, but I really feel strongly in the area regarding better incentives for the freights to act accordingly! Some freights already do the best they can for example BNSF.

1088 what do you think of this? You are a fellow railroader I believe. OBS...
 
OBS,

While I agree with most of what you've said, there is one particular area that I disagree with.

Amtrak OBS Employee said:
There needs to be better incentives in place for the freights to do their part.
I think that the incentives in place are already more than Amtrak can afford. Now I'm also not suggesting that they be eliminated, but they also should not be increased.

What should happen is, just like Amtrak pays for OTP, anytime time Amtrak is late strickly due to freight interference then the freight companies should pay a penalty. Now I don't really care if that money is paid directly to Amtrak or put into some sort of trust fund that can then be used to buy new equipment. Or perhaps the money could even be used to provide a small refund to all the passengers who were delayed.

But the bottom line is that Amtrak should not increase its incentive program, IMHO. The freight RR's need to pay a price for putting their interests ahead of real people.

Obviously there would be exceptions for bad weather, derailments, Amtrak's failure to depart on time from the originating station, and so on.
 
The thing i see is the freight RR not holding there end of the deal with running Amtrak on time for exsample CN in Michigan just does anything it can to make the Blue Water late because they don't like the time the train runs.I realy think the best freight RR Amtrak deals with is BNSF the employees i work with on the Road we do are damn best to keep Amtrak ontime. :)
 
Jake Vest is indeed a level headed person with a good sense of humor. Thank goodness he rode Sunset now and not six months ago when he would have been lucky to have it arrive the same DAY it was scheduled for, instead of only an hour+ late. And re shutting down the diner at the end of breakfast, remember that it was headed straight east from PNS, and would have very shortly been transitioning from Central to Eastern time, and therefore it actually shut down at 10 am rather than 9, effectively, since by the time it got to TLH it would have been on Eastern time and short an hour from the usual changeover time from breakfast to lunch. It really would have been nice if somebody had been able to fill him in on why Amtrak can't get places on time, and that it is VERY rarely the fault of Amtrak, and that even if Florida bought itself a complete set of equipment and crews, unless they created a whole brand new exclusively-passenger rail system right-of-way, they wouldn't run any closer to on-time than Amtrak would, for the same reasons Amtrak can't.
 
AlanB said:
But the bottom line is that Amtrak should not increase its incentive program, IMHO. The freight RR's need to pay a price for putting their interests ahead of real people.
I can go with that, Alan. I didn't really think of it that way. As long as there is some accountabilty involved. That is a good point! OBS...
 
Amtrak OBS Employee said:
AlanB said:
But the bottom line is that Amtrak should not increase its incentive program, IMHO.  The freight RR's need to pay a price for putting their interests ahead of real people.
I can go with that, Alan. I didn't really think of it that way. As long as there is some accountabilty involved. That is a good point! OBS...
Ooops hit the send key before I was done editing, anyway...........the idea of the freights paying a price for making the Amtrak train late would be "incentive" to keep it on time if the price was high enough! OBS...
 
Amtrak OBS Employee said:
Amtrak OBS Employee said:
AlanB said:
But the bottom line is that Amtrak should not increase its incentive program, IMHO.  The freight RR's need to pay a price for putting their interests ahead of real people.
I can go with that, Alan. I didn't really think of it that way. As long as there is some accountabilty involved. That is a good point! OBS...
Ooops hit the send key before I was done editing, anyway...........the idea of the freights paying a price for making the Amtrak train late would be "incentive" to keep it on time if the price was high enough! OBS...
Exactly! I see it as a two pronged incentive to keep Amtrak on time. Keep us ontime and we'll pay you, delay us and you'll pay us.

Take your choice freight RR's.
 
I sent Jake an email. I'll let ya know if I get a response. It wasn't argumentative, but I suggested that if you were going to write about something, knowing the "why" is at least as useful as knowing the "what". Told him we missed his cartoons, too.

my keyboard also seems afflicted with keys that keep moving around. hmmmmmm.
 
BNSF_1088 said:
The thing i see is the freight RR not holding there end of the deal with running Amtrak on time for exsample CN in Michigan just does anything it can to make the Blue Water late because they don't like the time the train runs.I realy think the best freight RR Amtrak deals with is BNSF the employees i work with on the Road we do are damn best to keep Amtrak ontime. :)
BNSF has even cleared the line 2.5 Hours EARLY for Amtrak before!
 
AmtrakFan said:
BNSF_1088 said:
The thing i see is the freight RR not holding there end of the deal with running Amtrak on time for exsample CN in Michigan just does anything it can to make the Blue Water late because they don't like the time the train runs.I realy think the best freight RR Amtrak deals with is BNSF the employees i work with on the Road we do are damn best to keep Amtrak ontime. :)
BNSF has even cleared the line 2.5 Hours EARLY for Amtrak before!
It's in our rule book that any hot train like Amtrak and Z trains we have to be in the hole and they have to run on clear signals behind us.The BNSF line i work on we go into the hole about 1hr before Amtrak that is the shortist time. :)
 
BNSF_1088 said:
AmtrakFan said:
BNSF_1088 said:
The thing i see is the freight RR not holding there end of the deal with running Amtrak on time for exsample CN in Michigan just does anything it can to make the Blue Water late because they don't like the time the train runs.I realy think the best freight RR Amtrak deals with is BNSF the employees i work with on the Road we do are damn best to keep Amtrak ontime. :)
BNSF has even cleared the line 2.5 Hours EARLY for Amtrak before!
It's in our rule book that any hot train like Amtrak and Z trains we have to be in the hole and they have to run on clear signals behind us.The BNSF line i work on we go into the hole about 1hr before Amtrak that is the shortist time. :)
I live on a line that has 160+ Trains a day 6 Amtrak's Included.
 
The other legislative change we need is to make it illegal for the freight railroads to require Amtrak to indemnify them for their own negligence so that, for instance, if the freight railroad's negligence causes an Amtrak derailment, Amtrak doesn't get stuck with paying those damages, like they had to do in the AutoTrain derailment in Florida a couple of years ago. That kind of indemnification needs to be flatly illegal from a public policy standpoint because it is a disincentive for the freight railroads to run a safe rail system. It also costs Amtrak a heck of a lot of money it can't afford to start with and from an ethical standpoint should never have to pay anyway.
 
AmtrakWPK said:
The other legislative change we need is to make it illegal for the freight railroads to require Amtrak to indemnify them for their own negligence so that, for instance, if the freight railroad's negligence causes an Amtrak derailment, Amtrak doesn't get stuck with paying those damages, like they had to do in the AutoTrain derailment in Florida a couple of years ago. That kind of indemnification needs to be flatly illegal from a public policy standpoint because it is a disincentive for the freight railroads to run a safe rail system. It also costs Amtrak a heck of a lot of money it can't afford to start with and from an ethical standpoint should never have to pay anyway.
A very good point, WPK. And an inequity that also needs to be fixed.
 
UP and CSX could learn a few things from BNSF when it comes to Track maintenance and dispatching.

I've heard that CSX almost routinely forgets about Amtrak train # 78, which runs between between Richmond, VA and Newport News, Va on Friday nights at 10 pm. They simply forget about it, and the train will have to wait and call the dispatcher to see what the hell is going on.

Jon Parker
 
I got a very nice, detailed email response from Jake Vest. It included a number of other legitimate gripes. I asked him send to his comments and observations to Gunn, and I also asked him for permission to share his email with this board.
 
AmtrakWPK said:
The other legislative change we need is to make it illegal for the freight railroads to require Amtrak to indemnify them for their own negligence so that, for instance, if the freight railroad's negligence causes an Amtrak derailment, Amtrak doesn't get stuck with paying those damages, like they had to do in the AutoTrain derailment in Florida a couple of years ago.  That kind of indemnification needs to be flatly illegal from a public policy standpoint because it is a disincentive for the freight railroads to run a safe rail system.   It also costs Amtrak a heck of a lot of money it can't afford to start with and from an ethical standpoint should never have to pay anyway.
Amtrak’s right to use the freight railroads is dependant upon the assumption of liability. If the risk was transferred to the railroads, Amtrak would be assessed access fees that would effectively preclude any economic operation.

The freight railroads are private businesses. Any debt owed for Amtrak assuming operation of the passenger services ended when the initial 25-year Amtrak legislation expired. Although there remains an obligation for the railroads to permit access by Amtrak, that obligation is dependent upon available capacity and negotiated economic terms. The railroads have every right to be made economically whole for permitting access to Amtrak. Congress cannot simply legislate the railroads to assume costs and liability for Amtrak operation without compensation. That is a illegal taking of private property that is expressly prohibited by the constitution. So any assumption of passenger costs by the railroads will come at a cost to Amtrak. One unique Amtrak cost is the potential liability for a accident involving passengers and passenger equipment.

The issue of liability can be handled in two ways. One, the railroads could assume liability and include the cost of assuming that unknown risk in the access fee charged to Amtrak. The other way is that Amtrak will not pay the railroads any fees for assumption of liability and will, in the case of claims against the railroads, pay the claims directly even if the railroad was at fault. The later is by far the best deal for Amtrak. It should be noted that Amtrak has and continues to save a fortune by assuming liability themselves compared to what they would pay the railroads in advance for covering claims.

There is a natural desire to see those who are at fault pay for their errors. When tha AutoTrain derails because of a failure of track maintenance, you want to see CSX foot the bill. But, inherent economics sometimes results in the best financial solution being the less emotionally desirable solution. If CSX is giving Amtrak a massive break on the access fees in exchange for Amtrak assuming liability, then even with the accident, Amtrak is way ahead of the game. The fact is if a proposal were made to make the railroads assume liability for accidents, Amtrak would be among those most vocally opposed.
 
He didnt seem to bash Amtrak to peices which I liked, and he seemed to support giving money to trains in general for there overall improvement.

Right now Im toting around Europe on Eurail. One thing Im impressed with is with Amtrak employees are very good at announcements and friendliness compared to over here its not quite as extensive.

Expect a full Europe by Eurrail trip report when I return to the US later this week!

Chris
 
Sorry PRR, but I absolutely disagree. If you are negligent and that negiigence causes injury, you have NO right to require somebody else to pick up the tab. Some neighborhoods (gated communities mostly) have privately owned and maintained roads. If they don't maintain it properly, and it creates a safety hazard that causes injury and damage, anyone injured by it can sue them. Not just the people that live there. From a public policy standpoint, anything that is a disincentive to exercise due diligence, where the lack of it will likely cause serious injury or catastrophic damage, is a very bad idea. You should not be ABLE to contract away your own liability for your own negligence, period. If they are negligent and that negligence causes injury, they should be responsible for it. Now maybe you could couple that with some assistance via sharing the transportation (gas) taxes and so forth, to help build and maintain the shared infrastructure, but the bottom line should be that we don't allow anybody to contractually avoid liability if their own negligence causes injury. It's bad policy and bad for the public welfare. If you know that you will end up paying out of your own pocket if your stuff is unsafe and hurts somebody, you are MUCH more likely to really work diligently to keep it safe. And it is the public's safety that is at risk here . That's the public policy aspect. If CSX has to pay damages when their system causes injury, they are much more likely to keep it safe. It is morally repugnant that when Amtrak passengers are killed by CSX's negligence, Amtrak has to pay the resultant damages to the families of those passengers. If Amtrak causes the harm, if Amtrak's equipment fails, or if Amtrak personnel cause the injury, Amtrak WILL be responsible to pay damages. If CSX causes it, it should be CSX's nickle at risk, NOT Amtrak's. The freight railroad's right to made "economically whole" because of Amtrak's operations should be limited to whatever wear and tear, or delay, or other OPERATIONAL costs are involved. That does NOT include economic costs which are the direct result not of Amtrak's use of their system, but of the host railroad's direct negligence which was the proximate cause of the accident. Amtrak was simply the innocent victim of the confluence of the host railroad's negligence plus being in the wrong track section at the wrong time.
 
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