When the nuts are running the Asylum (homeland security)

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Harrasing people taking pictures is not going to make anyone safer,this campaign,while well intentioned,is the stuff of tyrants and we need look no farther than the ****s/the communists and the fanatical homelands of those that wish us ill to see what turning into paranoid witch hunters does to our land of the free and the home of the brave!Especially crazy is harrasing railfans taking pictures of stations and trains and trstles and bridges, the crazies like the OP said are not going to do the obvious!
Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty,for sure,but eternal paranoia is the residence of fools and scared sheep!Relax and take a train ride,itll cure the soul and make it whole! :)
Aloha

I do not in any way get bothered by security asking me for Identification or why I am photographing, A train, A Building, A Bridge, or what ever. What I refereed to a while back was when I was in Dallas Fort Worth riding the Texas Eagle, I went into the waiting room. The interior was beautiful so I took a picture inside. A Private Security woman approached me and said It "was a federal crime for me to take pictures". I said back to he I knew it was no a crime of any kind, check with her superiors. She then requested I give her my camera. I immediately left the waiting room and returned to the Train platform.

My SCA took a picture of me next to my car, I laughingly told him about the security guard. He laughed also. I then walked forward on the Platform and took another picture of the engine and of the building in the background where President Kennedy stayed the night before he was assassinated.

At this point the Same Security Guard, from a warehouse behind a fence, said to me and another Passenger on my train "we could only photograph the trains, no wheels, tracks, or buildings could be in the picture" The other passenger was a little rude to her, I just requested she get her supervisor.

I did not wait for her to do anything, and just returned to my sleeper, It was pretty hot that day, and I wanted to get back into Air conditioning. We still had about 30 min before departure.

This is why so many people get irritated, Real Security is Appreciated, Harassment turns the important function's into a waste.

I got my first Camera when I was in High School more than 50 years Ago. I like Jishnu quantity "gazillion" I am sure I have taken that many, between Film Stills, Film Movies, Digital Still, and Video. In all that time this one guard is the only one to say I couldn't photograph, there were times I am sure I was asked for Identification. Heck while working for a local TV station I photographed the Astronouts first Step on American Soil meeting a president (I cant remember who) at the Honolulu Airport. (Sure wish I had could hav been on the carrier when the splashed into the Pacific Ocean, another station got that assignment)

If your interested feel free to look at what shoot today in Photo Gallery.

Eric
 
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"One of the things we ask people to do is when they see something unusual, if they see, for example, somebody continually taking photographs of a piece of critical infrastructure that doesn't seem to make any sense … to report that to local law enforcement so it can be followed up on."
I'm 100% behind Secretary Napolitano on this. Homeland Security should waste no time and spare no expense in compiling and issuing a comprehensive list of pieces of critical infrastructure that don't seem to make any sense. This would result in a better-informed public, and people would be free of the burden of continually taking pictures of, say, a certain bridge in Alaska. In turn, law enforcement resources thereby conserved could be redeployed to truly crucial tasks such as ferreting out the hordes of terrorists known to be hiding under every bush in Flotsam's Mistake, South Dakota.
Furthermore, said critical infrastructure that makes no sense can be torn down so that wastage of resources to maintain them can cease too. See it is a win-win-win situation :)
 
Don't even begin to play the "I had a loss in the 9/11 incident" card.
Sure, as long a you don't play the "I'm a humble construction worker that has to justify my fertilizer purchases" card. We are all shaped by our personal experiences, mine by 9/11 and yours by construction. I'll leave it to you to decide whether we use personal experiences here or not, I am fine either way, but don't set a double standard for the discussion. Half the posts in this thread use personal examples including yours.

Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty,for sure,but eternal paranoia is the residence of fools and scared sheep!Relax and take a train ride,itll cure the soul and make it whole!
I am not paranoid, but observant. You feel NYC 's "see something say something" campaign is paranoia?? As an aside I do take trains...select plus status, frequent Acela rider, and my second NEC/Crescent BOS to ATL round trip this past July with the family that was a lot of fun. I like trains.

this campaign...is the stuff of tyrants and we need look no farther than the ****s/the communists and the fanatical homelands of those that wish us ill to see what turning into paranoid witch hunters does to our land of the free and the home of the brave!
You are suggesting the DHS are tyrants/****s/communists because they suggest citizens call law enforcement when they see someone taking a picture of "critical infrastructure." They even say in the press release "Photographing rail lines from public property remains perfectly legal". I doubt Stalin and Hitler ever politely suggested anything. And do you really think a black president is going to follow **** doctrine?

The people doing or wanting to do this stuff are not going to be out doing the obvious.
THAT is the whole point of "One of the things we ask people to do is when they see something unusual, if they see, for example, somebody continually taking

photographs of a piece of critical infrastructure that doesn't seem to make any sense … to report that to local law enforcement so it can be followed up on."

I am still lost why everyone here feels so threatened by this. Why do you feel not only that it isn't your responsibility when you see a huge backpack stranded on a commuter train to tell a conductor/cop about it, but that being politely asked to do so is the government walking all over your personal liberties?

Mike
 
I am still lost why everyone here feels so threatened by this. Why do you feel not only that it isn't your responsibility when you see a huge backpack stranded on a commuter train to tell a conductor/cop about it, but that being politely asked to do so is the government walking all over your personal liberties?
Mike
No one said anything like what you imply.
 
Frankly I don't think a legitimate concern for security is threatening to anyone. The problem is with how such is handled by a few bad apples who are mostly out on a power trip, who have not really been empowered and are quite clueless about what the law is. Typical examples are private security company employees (or even an occasional clueless Amtrak OBS person or Assistant Conductor) with a chip on their shoulders who are clueless enough to, for example, even try to prevent the press following the VP of public relations of Amtrak from taking pictures in Union Station in Washington DC as happened a while back. Unfortunately, well intentioned, but not sufficiently circumscribed invitation by someone like Janet Nepolitano, empowers that kind of a character to run a wee bit, shall we say, rough shod over some, and that is found to be irritating by the recipient of such treatment. I think the specter of such starting up again, as happened in NJ under the able (sic!) watch of NJT Police Chief Bober, until he finally got fired, is what has people expressing a certain level of anxiety in each their own impeccable way, I am afraid.
 
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We are a bit safer now than pre-9/11. It's not because of DHS ( I hate the name, sounds too fatherlandish) but becasue the attitude of the populace has changed.

Pre-9/11 the common view was just let the hijacker go where he wants and we'll all be fine.

Seeing that this method was not successful; our collective views have changed.

Now, any disturbance on a plane is met with resistance by passengers.

See Richard Reid and his black eye for confirmation of this change.

image322435x.jpg


This same view is passing to other areas of our (USA) society as well.

The severe restrictions of civil liberties under the guise of national security are what gall me.

That and the federalization and large beuracracy created.

That and the No Fly List or CAPPS I or II or Secure Flight or whatever secret list they have me on.
 
Don't even begin to play the "I had a loss in the 9/11 incident" card.
Sure, as long a you don't play the "I'm a humble construction worker that has to justify my fertilizer purchases" card. We are all shaped by our personal experiences, mine by 9/11 and yours by construction. I'll leave it to you to decide whether we use personal experiences here or not, I am fine either way, but don't set a double standard for the discussion. Half the posts in this thread use personal examples including yours.
That is not what I said. And, you are the one that started with a personal example. People in glass houses, etc. etc.

FWIW: I worked in one of those building for 3 months back in 1995. Several people that I worked with there and elsewhere were in the building when it was hit. I watched the thing live and said to my wife, The death toll will probably be above 10,000, and ___ and the others that I know in our office there are probably all dead. The actual number dead was much less, and the bunch I knew all got out, fortunately.

At some point, we need ot look at the othere side of the picture as well: The death toll was somewhere around 2,000. It could easily have been 10,000 or more, and I would suspect that the instigators thought it would be. What made it so low was:

1. The unusually high number of people that either were late or off that morning for various reasons.

2. The big one: both buildings went straight down rather than the part above the crash elevation turning over to one side, which the off center impact made much more likely than what actually happened.

3. The plane load of people that attacked their hijackers, resulting in the plane going into the ground rather than some other building in DC or elsewhere.

4. The Pentagon was hit in an area that was being remodeled so that much fewer people were in the damaged portion than would normally be the case.
 
You know, terrorism is a relative concept. What is one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. David Ben Gurion once accused Yasir Arafat of being a terrorist, you know. Never mind that Ben Gurion bombed the British out of the King David hotel when he himself was a "terrorist".

A terrorist is any person who acts in a manner that is intended to terrorize people. Osama Bin Laden is a terrorist for the 9-11 bombings. And Janet Nepolitano is a bloody terrorist for releasing this clap-trap on the American people. The Republican party is a bloody terrorist organization for fear-mongering people on every single issue from security to the health plans currently being bashed around Washington.

ALL OF THAT IS TERRORISM! Every single bit of it. They should all be Mussolini'ed for it. Except for the women. I can't think of what to do with them, but obviously it can't be that. The anatomy isn't right.

FEAR MONGERING IS TERRORISM!

You don't have to kill people to terrorize them.

I for one, don't give a bloody crap about security. I for one, do not wish to modify my life style one whit for terrorists. I will NOT let them scare me. I will NOT let our elected officials scare me. I'd rather be blown up than walk through life living in fear of the security designed to "protect" me.
 
I for one, don't give a bloody crap about security. I for one, do not wish to modify my life style one whit for terrorists. I will NOT let them scare me. I will NOT let our elected officials scare me. I'd rather be blown up than walk through life living in fear of the security designed to "protect" me.
I fully agree with you, I want the airport security we had in the 90s back, where you were not strip searched, told to put your shampoo in little baggies, and treated like a criminal. I also want to be able to take pictures of trains and planes (my other hobby), without being targeted as a terrorist. Ben Franklin once said something all these lines. "Those who trade liberty for a little temporary security, deserve neither. I for one do not by the "well in this post 9/11 world" crap, I still the support the words of the 4th amendment which seems to have been forgotten by those in power.
 
You know, terrorism is a relative concept. What is one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. David Ben Gurion once accused Yasir Arafat of being a terrorist, you know. Never mind that Ben Gurion bombed the British out of the King David hotel when he himself was a "terrorist".
A terrorist is any person who acts in a manner that is intended to terrorize people. Osama Bin Laden is a terrorist for the 9-11 bombings. And Janet Nepolitano is a bloody terrorist for releasing this clap-trap on the American people. The Republican party is a bloody terrorist organization for fear-mongering people on every single issue from security to the health plans currently being bashed around Washington.

ALL OF THAT IS TERRORISM! Every single bit of it. They should all be Mussolini'ed for it. Except for the women. I can't think of what to do with them, but obviously it can't be that. The anatomy isn't right.

FEAR MONGERING IS TERRORISM!

You don't have to kill people to terrorize them.

I for one, don't give a bloody crap about security. I for one, do not wish to modify my life style one whit for terrorists. I will NOT let them scare me. I will NOT let our elected officials scare me. I'd rather be blown up than walk through life living in fear of the security designed to "protect" me.
IMHO, there seems to be plenty of fear-mongering on both sides of the aisle to go around. It seems that it is a favored tactic to get people to agree with the politicians point of view and get their laws passed. Just think of the words being used-crisis, catastrophe, etc. And the attitude that something must be done now, regardless of the unintended consequences.

Our job is to sift through all the rhetoric on both sides, investigate everything, & then decide.

As far as security, I agree with you in part. Everyone has the same choice there. If we choose to be afraid, & curtail our normal behavior, then the terrorists have already done their job, without any assistance from anyone else.

I think the key is to be aware of our surroundings (but not paranoid) & go about doing what is our normal routine.

None of us know what will happen to us from minute to minute. Life is more than worrying about what could happen.

It's about the things we do & the choices we make.

When we went on the Zephyr & Starlight in June/July, we took many videos & pictures of the trains, arriving, leaving, inside & out, staff too. Nobody said a word to us, they just smiled. There were also quite a few other people doing the same thing.

Some were passengers, others were not. They were all ages.

(forgot to add this last paragraph)
 
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IMHO, there seems to be plenty of fear-mongering on both sides of the aisle to go around.
Indubitably.

I don't mean to sound like I think the Republican party has historically always based their methods on this whilst the Democrats are angelic in this respect.

However, at this point in time, the Republicans are more guilty of it than the Democrats. I think the primary reason is that the Democrats are in power, and scaring people is one of the few ways they think they can accomplish things.

Reason and logic convinces people who listen to you to come to your side of the arguement, and will make those people support you so long as you continue to be reasonable and logical. Of course, an opponent being reasonable and logical in a way that makes your point seem wrong can easily change most people's effected by this minds.

But scaring people, if effective, will get ANYONE who is scared to side with you. What's more, you tend to get the people who aren't very bright. They will continue to be scared, long past the time that logic and the facts dictate their fear is ridiculous. It doesn't matter how many times you tell your 5-year-old there are no monsters in his closet. If his older sister convinced him, he will believe it until he is old enough to walk up to his closet, open the door, and see they aren't there.

And frankly, the crowd that believe in the fears cast upon them are much like a 5 year old who has yet to find the courage to confront the nonsense thrust upon him by someone looking to gain something by his fear.
 
IMHO, there seems to be plenty of fear-mongering on both sides of the aisle to go around.
Indubitably.

I don't mean to sound like I think the Republican party has historically always based their methods on this whilst the Democrats are angelic in this respect.

However, at this point in time, the Republicans are more guilty of it than the Democrats. I think the primary reason is that the Democrats are in power, and scaring people is one of the few ways they think they can accomplish things.

Reason and logic convinces people who listen to you to come to your side of the arguement, and will make those people support you so long as you continue to be reasonable and logical. Of course, an opponent being reasonable and logical in a way that makes your point seem wrong can easily change most people's effected by this minds.

But scaring people, if effective, will get ANYONE who is scared to side with you. What's more, you tend to get the people who aren't very bright. They will continue to be scared, long past the time that logic and the facts dictate their fear is ridiculous. It doesn't matter how many times you tell your 5-year-old there are no monsters in his closet. If his older sister convinced him, he will believe it until he is old enough to walk up to his closet, open the door, and see they aren't there.

And frankly, the crowd that believe in the fears cast upon them are much like a 5 year old who has yet to find the courage to confront the nonsense thrust upon him by someone looking to gain something by his fear.
I didn't get that you were blaming one over the other. I try to be observant of both sides of any argument before jumping in. But I do think that when we spend time blaming each other, very little of any value gets done.

You know what's really scary? We are very close to total agreement! :eek: :)

Back to the thread, probably a stupid question- is the train system considered 'critical infrastucture' because people are very dependant on it back east? Or because of shipping too? I thought one of the arguments of most people that are against amtrak in general is because the trains are not important?

Are they cracking down on photos of planes/airports/buses/taxis/trolleys/freeways too? :unsure:

And don't you know, the monster isn't always in the closet-sometimes he's under the bed! :lol:
 
Back to the thread, probably a stupid question- is the train system considered 'critical infrastucture' because people are very dependant on it back east? Or because of shipping too? I thought one of the arguments of most people that are against amtrak in general is because the trains are not important?
Well, people are dependent on the rail network everywhere--the "train system" is critical infrastructure nationwide, and any argument that "trains are not important" is absolutely false. (Don't worry, I know you're not making this argument, but are just pointing out that many do!) Most people just don't think about this enough to realize that without rail, everything would be much scarcer and more expensive, from electricity (how else would coal and oil be shipped from the ground to the power plants and refineries?) to automobiles (shipped hundreds per train, versus about a dozen per tractor trailer) to orange juice (which was a luxury good until the Pacific Fruit Express, and later the Tropicana Juice Train). We likely wouldn't have a "national economy" if it weren't for our rail network, and standards of living would be fundamentally different and lower as a whole and completely incompatible with almost every contemporary American's idea of "how life should be".

Of course, there's a huge difference between the rail infrastructure and passenger rail, and passenger rail has different values and serves different purposes on different scales. On a regional, urban scale passenger rail is an indisputably beneficial system. New York City would collapse without it; the Northeast, from Boston to Washington, would dwindle as individual cities and a collective whole; and with these shrinkages the entire nation would suffer. New York depends on Kansas, and Kansas depends on New York, much as each would often prefer to think otherwise. It's not just "back east" where passenger rail is beneficial, though the East has the bulk of successful examples by virtue of having the most comprehensive initial, and strongest still intact, infrastructure: Chicago, and the Midwest for hundreds of miles surrounding it, depends on the people-moving on its rail system.

But on a nationwide scale, airplanes, cellphones, and the Internet have changed the pace of business, and rail can never catch up on some scales to that new pace. We're unlikely to ever see a six-hour New York to Los Angeles train, for instance--that's a route for which air travel may be necessary to maintain today's economic pace and climate. But a fast overnight New York to Chicago train is possible and would be compatible with business desires, and three-hour 500 mile trips between major cities are possible across the country. Hence the current initiatives for HSR. Once implemented they'll pay off enormously, compared to a future where they are not in place before Peak Oil is realized and air and road travel become suddenly prohibitively expensive.

And even in its current form, Amtrak's LD service provides many valuable people-moving infrastructure needs, providing efficient service to many locations and populations that would otherwise be without good transportation options--it's not just the "land cruise" operation detractors decry, and long-distance conventional trains can and must continue to provide these functions, as economics continues to make passenger rail relatively more efficient and cheaper than alternatives. But it's hard to see the potential in the current system without some investigation into economics and demographics, and it's easy to argue against rail by highlighting the short-term and current negatives and overlooking the long-term future positives. See Anthony Perl's _New Departures_ for a decent, accessible analysis of how Japan, France, and Germany each overcame this, though each dealt with a very different situation and problem than America must deal with today; and Wikipedia's Peak Oil article gives a pretty comprehensive overview of the concept.

I think it's more that people see the very simple picture, that Amtrak historically (throughout its crippled, underfunded, frequently misguided, politically influenced decline) has been painted as an economic failure, and that they extrapolate from that that all railroads are unnecessary (influenced in their opinion by the oil lobby and by the behind-the-scenes role that railroads play compared to the accessible and widely-understood highways and airplanes that convey most of the population); and so they most often go from "Amtrak is unnecessary" and "I live in Kansas; trains only work in and for New York, not me" to "trains are not important", and not the other way around.

But much of this is getting pretty far afield from the topic of this thread, and moving into territory covered pretty exhaustively elsewhere!

Are they cracking down on photos of planes/airports/buses/taxis/trolleys/freeways too? :unsure:
To return to the topic and your question on photographs of freeways and airplanes ... well, it's already much more difficult to photograph airplanes by their nature. You can stand alongside the right-of-way of a railroad and photograph trains as they go by, or visit overlooks or public property near railyards, quite easily. But you can't generally get very near an airport--not the part with airplanes taxi-ing about and taking off and landing. That's pretty well cordoned off. You can see your plane up close through a window at the gate, once you're at the gate (having a ticket, having gone through security, etc), but when else do you even have the opportunity to see a 767 or an Airbus 320 up close, outside of an air show? And passenger planes in flight are, well, just not within sight of a ground-based photographer. I don't think anyone's "cracking down" on airplane photography; I just think it's always been difficult for those reasons.

Freeways are a lot more accessible--you can stand on an overpass pretty easily, or find overlooks, and you can walk across many major highway bridges, and some are even tourist attractions that encourage photography. I don't think anyone's cracking down on freeway photography; if there have been instances of this I certainly haven't heard of them.
 
To return to the topic and your question on photographs of freeways and airplanes ... well, it's already much more difficult to photograph airplanes by their nature. You can stand alongside the right-of-way of a railroad and photograph trains as they go by, or visit overlooks or public property near railyards, quite easily. But you can't generally get very near an airport--not the part with airplanes taxi-ing about and taking off and landing. That's pretty well cordoned off. You can see your plane up close through a window at the gate, once you're at the gate (having a ticket, having gone through security, etc), but when else do you even have the opportunity to see a 767 or an Airbus 320 up close, outside of an air show? And passenger planes in flight are, well, just not within sight of a ground-based photographer. I don't think anyone's "cracking down" on airplane photography; I just think it's always been difficult for those reasons.
Depends on the airport. Newark Terminal C is actually a surprisingly good vantage point for taking photographs/video of planes taking off from runway 4L or landing on runway 22L though you do have to be in the secure area. All you need is a good 200mm VR zoom lens. And I have never been stopped by anyone yet for taking such pictures to my heart's content while waiting for a flight there.

If you don't have a ticket, try IKEA on the other side of NJ Turnpike. Immediately after 9/11 they got tight on that one, but they have since relaxed the restrictions there.

At San Francisco I have spent endless hours taking pictures of planes landing as they approach over the waters to touch down. At Reagan National in VA you can take as many photos as you like from any part of the terminal building. So, bottom line is it all depends on which airport you are at.
 
To return to the topic and your question on photographs of freeways and airplanes ... well, it's already much more difficult to photograph airplanes by their nature. You can stand alongside the right-of-way of a railroad and photograph trains as they go by, or visit overlooks or public property near railyards, quite easily. But you can't generally get very near an airport--not the part with airplanes taxi-ing about and taking off and landing. That's pretty well cordoned off. You can see your plane up close through a window at the gate, once you're at the gate (having a ticket, having gone through security, etc), but when else do you even have the opportunity to see a 767 or an Airbus 320 up close, outside of an air show? And passenger planes in flight are, well, just not within sight of a ground-based photographer. I don't think anyone's "cracking down" on airplane photography; I just think it's always been difficult for those reasons.
Depends on the airport. Newark Terminal C is actually a surprisingly good vantage point for taking photographs/video of planes taking off from runway 4L or landing on runway 22L though you do have to be in the secure area. All you need is a good 200mm VR zoom lens. And I have never been stopped by anyone yet for taking such pictures to my heart's content while waiting for a flight there.

If you don't have a ticket, try IKEA on the other side of NJ Turnpike. Immediately after 9/11 they got tight on that one, but they have since relaxed the restrictions there.

At San Francisco I have spent endless hours taking pictures of planes landing as they approach over the waters to touch down. At Reagan National in VA you can take as many photos as you like from any part of the terminal building. So, bottom line is it all depends on which airport you are at.
And if Colonel Klink or Field Marshall Von Hard Ass is in charge!Abuse of power is the number one problem facing "Little person syndrome" when they give a badge and a uniform to a wanna -be power seeker!Seems like private security idiots are the worst but the regulars have their goons too!
 
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And if Colonel Klink or Field Marshall Von Hard Ass is in charge!Abuse of power is the number one problem facing "Little person syndrome" when they give a badge and a uniform to a wanna -be power seeker!Seems like private security idiots are the worst but the regulars have their goons too!
As evident from an earlier posting by me on this thread, I agree with that sentiment.
 
Back to the thread, probably a stupid question- is the tr
To return to the topic and your question on photographs of freeways and airplanes ... well, it's already much more difficult to photograph airplanes by their nature. But you can't generally get very near an airport--not the part with airplanes taxi-ing about and taking off and landing. That's pretty well cordoned off. You can see your plane up close through a window at the gate, once you're at the gate (having a ticket, having gone through security, etc), but when else do you even have the opportunity to see a 767 or an Airbus 320 up close, outside of an air show?
Actually is pretty easy to take pictures of planes as jis said, I do it at least twice a month.

Ive never been bothered either, then again the west coast seems more relaxed about security. For both planes and trains, since Ive never been bothered out here. On my

trip to the east however, I was taking a picture of an AEM7 as I was getting off the Silver Star in DC and they told me I couldn't do that.

Sample of one of my photos

http://jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6520661&nseq=0
 
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Depends on the airport.
The roads around Heathrow are normally busy with plane spotters, the planes are very very low there anyway. No problem with photography there.

On a wider note, all this nonsense about getting people to report things they think are suspect are fairly pointless, window dressing, just looks like you are doing something. Same as terror "alerts" with pointless colours, all meaningless babble.

Lets face it, if someone wants to wander into a shopping mall or railway station with a bomb or machine gun, you ain't really going to stop them unless you are super lucky.

"Terrorism" is something we have to live with, and accept it's a by product of how a countries government behaves elsewhere.

Regardless of the rights and wrongs, until Israel stops kicking the Palestinians and American and British armies don't kill innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan then a pool of resentment and sometimes hatred will be built up. Hardly surprising really is it? Is it any different to when the IRA was setting off bombs on the streets of London financed by Americans who had romantic ideals of the brave freedom fighters against the bad Brits?

Just getting pretend "security" to hassle railfans and tourists won't make a difference.

Altering how you treat people will.

GML is actually right. Go about your business, enjoy your life, take photos of trains, boats, planes whatever takes your fancy. Laugh at the gormless clowns that tell you it's forbidden.

While you are worrying yourself to death about the nasty bogeyman under the bed you will step out in the street and get run over by a bus......

Be nice to people, don't give them a hard time just because they don't subscribe to the same belief system you do, get annoyed when your government sells weaponry to a country that uses that weaponry to wage war on other people. There is enough crap in the world.
 
Gormless!!!! Ha! Good choice of words!!!! :lol: :lol: That's new one for me! I'm not sure of your age, but many of the younger crowd here may not be aware of all the bombings that went on in England because of the IRA. And yet, your Country survived, and didn't (as far as I know) Kowtow to the bombers.
 
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