What is happening to the SWC route?

[William W.]

Do we really think that the Republicans will go all the way and eliminate many of the LD routes? They controlled Congress, and the presidency, for years. Amtrak wasn't eliminated then. I think that you guys overestimate the strength of the Tea Party. It is a minority within the Republican Party, and despite what certain quarters would have you believe, it does not control the party. Sure, there are some who are rabidly anti-Amtrak, but when the issue actually comes up for a vote, I think that many Republicans will have trouble voting for large scale service cuts. Politicians don't like to have to explain any sort of hurtful cuts to their constituents. Even Indiana, which is a firmly Republican state, still chose to fund the Hoosier State, even if it was at the last minute. The most that I could see happening is the elimination of the Sunset Limited (and that may, at the end of the day, not be an overly bad thing). Even with the Sunset Limited, I'd imagine that once a proposal for elimination is introduced by some Congressman, there would be a swell of opposition from the areas that it serves. When people get mad about an issue, their representatives ignore them at their own peril.

I could be wrong, but I'm willing to bet that Amtrak's sky will not fall as soon as the Republicans take the Senate.

 

[andersone]

Ryan by chance do you know the very colorful joke about the southern ladies Ethel and Eustace sitting out on their porch swing?

 

[greatcats]

Several years ago while aboard an Amtrak train, one of the female onboard staff made this comment: " They've been trying to get rid of us for years and we're still here "

 

[crescent2]

If Amtrak's held on this long, I would be very surprised if entire routes and trains are eliminated, regardless of election results. Just an off the top of my head thought, no facts/figures to back this up.

 

[George Harris]

When dealing with politicians, turn off the sound and watch the action. Don't forget the big Amtrak cuts were under Carter. Also, don't forget the "Glidepath to Self Sufficiency" was actully a smoke and mirros operation that consumed assets, leaving the system without extra anything. As to the anti-BNSF rants concerning the SW chief and Empire Buildier, do you really think BNSF wants to deal with a lot of congetion and train delays? Improvements in track capacity do not happen by waving a magic want. Also, Amtrak does not help themselves in this area with on-line power failures and crews going dead on the law. These last ones are issues entirely within their own control, and they should fix them before complaining about what the host railroad is doing. Proper power maintenance is far cheaper than adding track capacity.

 

[VentureForth]

(note citation Ryan)

That's nice.

Now maybe you can provide a citation or three about the bloated overhead. Or you can actually lay out your own ideas, since you keep repeating it without any specific details.

H.R.4745 - Transportation, Housing and Urban Development, and Related Agencies Appropriations Act, 2015 has passed the house and incorporated the following amendments:

H.Amdt.842 — 113th Congress (2013-2014)

Description: Amendment prohibits use of funds for Amtrak's Sunset Limited line.

Sponsor: Rep. Sessions, Pete [R-TX-32] (Offered 06/10/2014)

Latest Action: 06/10/14 On agreeing to the Sessions amendment (A065) Agreed to by voice vote.

H.Amdt.841 — 113th Congress (2013-2014)

Description: Amendment prohibits the use of funds to subsidize Amtrak Food and Beverage Service.

Sponsor: Rep. Gingrey, Phil [R-GA-11] (Offered 06/10/2014)

Latest Action: 06/10/14 On agreeing to the Gingrey (GA) amendment (A064) Agreed to by voice vote.

It looks like H.Amdt.842 made it into the final text as such:

Sec. 436. None of the funds made available by this Act shall be used to support Amtrak's route with the highest loss, measured by contributions/(Loss) per Rider, as based on the National Railroad Passenger Corporation Fiscal Years 2013-2017 Five Year Plan from May 2013.

However, it does NOT look like the Food and Beverage text made it.

Now, this bill has only passed the house. The Senate has not reconciled it and so who knows what will be eventually passed.

 

[Ryan]

I'm well aware of that, having posted it here in the first place.

It doesn't have anything to do with Henry's beloved "bloated overhead".

 

[the Duck]

The Hudson and the Henry J were cool cars for their time but I liked the Buick best-- That grill and straight 8 engine. But now its tin can ride and that is now driving people back to mass transit.

 

[neroden]

When you weight the pros vs. the cons, there simply isn't a better place to be in the world.

Absolute and utter nonsense. I'm sure there are some people for whom the US is the best place. For me? England.
(1) Universal single-payer health care would cut my expenses by roughly $10000 per year and probably improve my health as well.

(2) Decent rail service, both local and intercity, would vastly improve my ability to travel and enjoy vacations. If we lose NY-Chicago rail service, I can't comfortably travel anywhere outside the northeast of the US any more; it would be the last straw. By contrast, I could travel from England as far as Turkey, Portugal, or Vladivostok.

(3) My taxes would, frankly, not go up by much compared to the savings from universal single-payer health care. My taxes are pretty high now. (I live in New York State.)

(4) I buy most of my entertainment and half my family's clothing from England *anyway*, for various reasons, so I'd save a lot on shipping and have better selection.

The main issue is finding someplace in England with a manageable cost of housing.

Anyway, I'm where I am for family reasons, but if I couldn't get out of here occasionally by train, I would say to hell with it and move somewhere better.

 

[neroden]

Also, Amtrak does not help themselves in this area with on-line power failures and crews going dead on the law. These last ones are issues entirely within their own control,

No, they certainly aren't. You know better than this. Power failures, yes, Amtrak's responsibility. Crews go "dead on the law" because of other delays, which are often caused by the host freight railroads.

 

[neroden]

But I suggest you spend your time, if you want to save that train, building a grassroots effort on one of the two routes. Writing to Boardman is tilting at windmills. He has his orders, and he will carry them out.

That's never been true at Amtrak. They've never had clear orders, they've always had muddled and contradictory instructions from multiple squabbling Congressmen.
And what do you think asking people to write to Boardman is doing, if not building a grassroots effort?

 

[neroden]

Nathaniel, I respect your intelligence, your drive, and your insight greatly- more than almost anyone else here I don't know personally. But you have a serious case of Quixotitis.

Always did.

I am far too involved with issues closer to my house to spend too much time on the Chief.

Bluntly, I like being able to get to San Diego & LA. And I don't fly (except in emergencies).

We might be fairly successful Americans, my friend, but to the people in Washington, I am a Nobody, and unless you have a lot more money and political power than I estimate, so are you. He won't listen to you. Mica won't listen to you. Nobody at that level will listen to a citizen out of the very top 1%,

Top 0.1%. Top 1% isn't rich enough. Just so you know. Not always true of Representatives (they will listen to much smaller donors than you might think), but definitely true of Senators in major states.

 

[cirdan]

Do we really think that the Republicans will go all the way and eliminate many of the LD routes? They controlled Congress, and the presidency, for years. Amtrak wasn't eliminated then.

Yes, but things have changed. At the time the Dems weren't especially pro Amtrak either. look for example at the damage the Carter administration caused. Amtrak politics were more bipartisan with those who thought they gained some benefit defending Amtrak, and those who thought they didn't attacking it. By standing behind Amtrak so definitely, the Dems have made Amtrak their baby and thus a target for Rep attacks.

 

[cirdan]

The main issue is finding someplace in England with a manageable cost of housing.

There are plenty of places in England where housing is manageable. Some very pretty places too. Just that those aren't places with many jobs.

 

[Ryan]

Do we really think that the Republicans will go all the way and eliminate many of the LD routes? They controlled Congress, and the presidency, for years. Amtrak wasn't eliminated then.

Yes, but things have changed.

Boy have they ever. Can you imagine a Republican candidate for office saying "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."?

What about the EPA? Started by a Republican President, now all of the cool kids in the Republican Party want to defund it (when Rick Perry can remember what it's called, that is).

By standing behind Amtrak so definitely, the Dems have made Amtrak their baby and thus a target for Rep attacks.

Sadly, this. Even when the idea originated with a Republican, as soon as Obama and the Democrats support it, it's "all hands on deck" to try and kill it (most amusingly so when Romney spent his whole campaign railing against the healthcare plan that he rolled out as Governor).

Today's Republican Party bears very little resemblance to that of years past, so the "They didn't do it before, so don't worry, they won't do it if given the chance" argument doesn't really hold any water.

 

[the Duck]

If you were a congressional person on Transportation committee in state of New Mexico; concerning "Southwest Chief" What would you do and why?

 

[henryj]

I would not give them a dime. Why? Because our tax payers already support Amtrak and we get little or nothing back. Same goes for most of the western states. The big money all goes to the NEC. So...........if the worst happens and these western LD trains disappear, then the rest of Amtrak won't be far behind simply because any support it now has will just vanish. The NEC and the East coast will be on their own. And good luck with that.

If you were a congressional person on Transportation committee in state of New Mexico; concerning "Southwest Chief" What would you do and why?

 

[henryj]

The only countries I could see myself moving to are Singapore, Hong Kong, or Canada. Europe is a tax and financial mess, and I don't want to be stolen from to pay for years of bad government policies.

That being said, I don't see myself ever leaving the US. No country has provided more opportunity, and lifted more people out of poverty than America. I wouldn't want to move to another country where my taxes would double or triple, where starting a business is hard, and where everything is much more expensive. Sure, the US may not have the best rail system in the world, but I hardly think that rail should be the primary factor for wanting to move elsewhere. When you weight the pros vs. the cons, there simply isn't a better place to be in the world.

All this talk about leaving the country is just bogus. However, if Amtrak decides to take away the few trains we have left out here, then none of us have any reason to stay on this board or to support Amtrak any further. Any trains that are left are state supported and can be run by any good operator. Amtrak isn't needed and it becomes just an NEC operation..........which makes money, so no government support needed. Right? haha.

 

[VentureForth]

I know you're talking toungue and cheek, but the states should support intercity trains that are completely within its boundaries. If a train transverses across a couple states, particularly in the NE where states are the size of picnic tables, share the costs. Likewise with commuter/transit. The city should support it, and neighboring cities should be a part of a coop to support commuters that cross city boundaries (but within a particular megapolis).

So, I support the 750 mile rule that Amtrak has adopted. If ridership permits, then the taxpayers of the communites and regions that demand the service will support their rail.

NEC could fall into that category. In fact, I would just about argue that Amtrak shouldn't be part of the NEC at all, and that the states between Virginia and Boston pay for, maintain, and reap the benefits from it.

Amtrak should provide the connectivity between large swaths of land that are unprofitable for private enterprise to maintain - the LA - Chicago, Chicago - NYC/BOS, Miami - NYC. Its the connecting of the microsystems (ok, they are huge, but compared to the landmass of the US) that adds to the success of those microsystems.

So, ideally, Amtrak would be just the overnight trains, and they would be completely subsidized by the government. But I, along with probably most other taxpayers, believe that is pure waste.

I've mentioned recently that even the most successful systems in the world (ie: JR, IR) are subsidized - if not by the government, by their own diversification internally.

When I worked at Walt Disney World, there was an effort for every business unit to turn a profit. Every hotel had to pay for itself. Food and beverage had to pay for itself. Merchandizing had to pay for itself. Sounds pretty good. But the Jungle Cruise or Space Mountain doesn't make money. The custodians aren't tipped. So what's been the result? Merchandizing, Food and Beverage, and the Hotels have made huge profits, and weren't really allowed to "subsidize" park attractions. So park revenue had to be increased. Today it costs nearly $100 for each person to enter a theme park in Orlando.

Disney gets away with it because there is demand. Amtrak doesn't have the demand to command the high ticket prices it needs to sustain the long distance services. They can't stand alone, and they can't be eliminated or they will damage the rest of the system. Can you imaging if Disney got rid of the rides because they didn't make money?

 

[neroden]

If you were a congressional person on Transportation committee in state of New Mexico; concerning "Southwest Chief" What would you do and why?

Well, I would have advocated buying the Raton Pass route for future safeguarding of a Denver-Albuqeurque route. Once it was state-owned, we could think seriously about whether it was appropriate to upgrade it now, or when, or what.

Oh wait, they did that, and the current governor backed out on the deal. :-(

 

[Braniff747SP]

Should we be limited to just one mode of transportation, or should we have the freedom to choose how we move about the country?

Freedom to choose how we move about the country does not entail the rest of the country massively subsidizing your travel.

The rest of the country does subsidize all other sorts of travel.

The Interstate Highway System is a subsidy for the motor vehicle and trucking industry. EAS (and the rest of the federally funded system) are subsidies for the airlines. Amtrak is merely subsidized in a more direct manner--in one that, at the end of the day, is considerably more cost-effective versus programs like the EAS.

Amtrak isn't supposed to make a profit. It's a public service. It should look to maximize revenues and minimize its costs to taxpayers, but at the end of the day, transporting people doesn't make money. Roads don't make money. Air travel doesn't make money (when you factor in all of the costs of providing it). Rail travel doesn't make money.

Amtrak is a for profit corporation and there are several railroads making a profit on their passenger divisions (some don't even have freight divisions).

All-in, infrastructure, rolling stock and operations, and providing nationwide service?

Yep, though the split of the operating companies and infrastructure companies in Europe hasn't helped clarify things terribly.

While this is true--look to Renfe and Adif, for example in Spain--the market there is incredibly different to that in the United States and can't really be compared.

 

[A.J.]

After reading about half the posts in this great topic, I have a pretty simple question: are the track problems the reason for the SWC being so late recently? I have a trip on it planned for mid-August and I'm a little concerned about meeting up with my partner in Gallup. Thanks for any help!

 

[Paul CHI]

Does the Raton ROW remain the property of BNSF even if it falls into disuse and the rails are removed? I see a lot of states have "rails to trails" but my understanding is that the railroads have the right to recapture those?

 

[printman2000]

After reading about half the posts in this great topic, I have a pretty simple question: are the track problems the reason for the SWC being so late recently? I have a trip on it planned for mid-August and I'm a little concerned about meeting up with my partner in Gallup. Thanks for any help!

I am pretty sure most of the big delays have been from equipment problems. There are MANY slow orders on the mentioned track that are not helping the situation, but not the main reason they are late. Some trains are arriving right on time.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

But I suggest you spend your time, if you want to save that train, building a grassroots effort on one of the two routes. Writing to Boardman is tilting at windmills. He has his orders, and he will carry them out.

That's never been true at Amtrak. They've never had clear orders, they've always had muddled and contradictory instructions from multiple squabbling Congressmen.
And what do you think asking people to write to Boardman is doing, if not building a grassroots effort?

Boardman doesn't have the power to respond; Congress does. The only way to get congress to respond is huge numbers. Something like MLKs march on Washington would do the trick quite nicely.