Viewliner II Part 2: Dining Car Production, Delivery, Speculation

[Ryan]

Bonus ViewDiner!







An all-Viewliner train would look somewhat interesting... Kind of oddly shaped...



Handful more here...

http://photos.stavely.org/Trains/CDiner-Delivery/

 

[PVD]

Nicely done, thank you.

 

[west point]

Not enough AM-2s ? Last two LDSL trips during high travel season had one AM-1 coach in consist. Usually assigned shorter distance riders. Definitely need more LDSL coaches.

 

[DSS&A]

Hi Ryan,

Thanks for the great photos. I don't have a telephoto lens that can catch them from the midwest! (too many obstructions in the way too......)

 

[DSS&A]

Another idea for a source of coaches to convert the CL to single level cars with the Viewliner II 70 car option, could be to do what California did and buy Comet, MARC IIa, Constitution Liner or other retired commuter cars and rebuild them as LD coaches to go with the add-on Viewliners. This may not be ideal, but it's more of a "take what you can get reasonably & quickly" solution.

 

[A Voice]

Hi,

Here's one hypothetical way to get coaches to convert the CL to single level equipment. A previous post stated both sets of equipment would need 4 coaches The addition of new diners to the Lake Shore Limited, Silver Star and Cardinal will free up 9 cafe-lounge cars which could be then converted to long distance coaches. Depending on a negotiation of penalties on the CAF contract, Amtrak could get additional rolling stock complete except for the interiors and finish them out themselves for "prototype LD coaches". Sleeping car shells could be used. The upper windows could be closed up if not needed for a coach configuration.

For example, a Metra press release this year stated that Nippon Sharyo will be completing 7 bilevel coaches for Metra as a part of a settlement on equipment orders at no cost to the railroad.

May I ask where you are hearing of plans to remove the lounge cars from eastern long-distance trains? Unless I've missed a nefarious rumor somewhere, no Amfleet II lounge cars will be freed up by the introduction of the new dining cars.

Another idea for a source of coaches to convert the CL to single level cars with the Viewliner II 70 car option, could be to do what California did and buy Comet, MARC IIa, Constitution Liner or other retired commuter cars and rebuild them as LD coaches to go with the add-on Viewliners. This may not be ideal, but it's more of a "take what you can get reasonably & quickly" solution.

The Amfleet II coaches and lounge cars are next up for replacement anyway. Probably the most expedient and practical means of getting additional cars would be to (somehow) cobble together a budget for such an order (presumably Viewliners), releasing Amfleet II for interim service elsewhere.

 

[Ziv]

It is cool to see two more Viewliner II's on the tracks! Thanks for the photos and the video!

I hope they are in revenue service soon and that we see two more VL II's within the next 30 days!

2 new cars per month would be a nice goal for CAF to hit. Who knows, maybe they are just getting up to speed...

 

[PVD]

The Viewliner design dates back 30 years. There are a number of things you would likely do differently today if you were designing a single level coach or lounge. Whatever we see next is most likely to include easy to swap package a/c in the roof, and more modern lighting, electrical, and electronics. Ease of conversion from corridor to b/c configuration is a slam dunk. There was committee design to be used as a starting point, but that is now a few years old, and will likely be updated in any new orders down the line. Everyone wants to avoid an epic fail like the NS order.

 

[jis]

Hi,

Here's one hypothetical way to get coaches to convert the CL to single level equipment. A previous post stated both sets of equipment would need 4 coaches The addition of new diners to the Lake Shore Limited, Silver Star and Cardinal will free up 9 cafe-lounge cars which could be then converted to long distance coaches. Depending on a negotiation of penalties on the CAF contract, Amtrak could get additional rolling stock complete except for the interiors and finish them out themselves for "prototype LD coaches". Sleeping car shells could be used. The upper windows could be closed up if not needed for a coach configuration.

For example, a Metra press release this year stated that Nippon Sharyo will be completing 7 bilevel coaches for Metra as a part of a settlement on equipment orders at no cost to the railroad.

May I ask where you are hearing of plans to remove the lounge cars from eastern long-distance trains? Unless I've missed a nefarious rumor somewhere, no Amfleet II lounge cars will be freed up by the introduction of the new dining cars.

I think he is talking of the additional Lounge Car that is currently being used as Diner on the LSL. There will be three such released when the LSL gets a Diner.

I don't believe anything will be released when the Card gets Diner. The current Diner will be retained as Lounge on it. And if SS ever gets Diners, similarly, nothing will be released. So his entire premise is wrong. Only three cars will be freed, not 9.

 

[west point]

Have to wonder what if ------- Amtrak transferees the V-2 designs to Siemens. Would that be possible without a new 800,000 # test or could they be built from the present designs ? Would CAF just drag their feet more completing the present order ?

 

[jis]

Have to wonder what if ------- Amtrak transferees the V-2 designs to Siemens. Would that be possible without a new 800,000 # test or could they be built from the present designs ? Would CAF just drag their feet more completing the present order ?

I am almost certain that Siemens will not take it unless it comes with gobs of additional money. There is no reason for them to invest in a relatively outdated and small production run line when they have a production line producing perfectly viable equipment that they can sell by the thousands all over the world. Besides why would they wish to adopt a design from the 1980s when they have a 21st century design in production?

Will you get over the 800,000lb thing? Siemens Birghtline cars already meet that and then some. So it really is a non-issue. Trust me on that one.

 

[PVD]

Not passing a test that others have passed usually indicates the problem is not the test standard, it is the person or organization that is failing.

 

[Lonestar648]

I sincerely doubt another company wants to adopt another company's old design then put their name on the product coming out the door. Siemens will want to manufacture their own designs, they have enough well qualified engineers to put together a top notch product, but like said above, at a very high cost,

 

[DSS&A]

Hi,

I was thinking of how Amtrak might get enough coaches relatively quickly to convert the CL to single level equipment (along with the 70 car Viewliner 2 option). This would allow the CL Superliner equipment to be reassigned to other trains. I was thinking of the cars on the LSL when they are replaced by new diners.

Yes, the best option would be for Amtrak to secure funds for new equipment.

 

[neroden]

There was the option for 30 more cars, but zero word that Amtrak ever (or will ever) exercise it.

I think it would be great if they could, but then the question is, to what point?

How much longer could they make existing trains? (keep in mind with the new sleepers and baggage-dorms, most trains will already see a 50% or more increase in sleeper space).

And, other than perhaps a sleeper on 66/67, and returning something like Three Rivers, where could they use this new equipment?

Every single eastern train with sleepers could use an additional sleeper. There needs to be a through sleeper on the Pennsy to the Capitol Limited. The LSL could fill two if the Pennsy/Cap through cars aren't reinstated. The Cardinal needs to go daily. 66/67 needs a sleeper.

That's 4 + 4 + 4 (southern trains) + 6 (LSL/Pennsy/Cap) + 2 (66/67) + 4 or 6 (Cardinal) = 24 to 26. Add shop time and you're up to 29 or 30 already. 25 sleepers and 10 half-sleepers are just barely enough to cover this.

What happens when -- as it will -- demand goes up *again*? What if both the Pennsy/Cap route and the LSL route have booming demand (as they will) and it becomes desirable to add another car to each (6 more)? What happens when there are some wrecks? What happens if there is a sound business case for another sleeper train, say, a second train on the LSL route at different hours? (If there is a sound business case for another sleeper train, it'll be going to NY, I'm quite sure, so it'll require single-levels.)

Just allowing for wrecks means they should order an extra 5 sleepers and an extra 5 bag-dorms. Allowing for predictable demand increases calls for another 10 sleepers.

There's a shortage of Superliners and they're starting to break, and there's no sound business case to replace them except possibly on Auto Train. Converting the Capitol Limited to Viewliners would ease the pain and simplify some platform height issues.

Remember, Amtrak originally intended to order 100 Viewliner sleepers, which is about the right number. They ordered 50. This order adds 25. Another 25 would be appropriate. But even another 5 or 10 would give them some breathing room.

 

[neroden]

Maybe make the Capital Limited a Viewliner train and move the Superliner cars that are freed up to the western LD routes? I am not sure all the coaches are needed but the sleepers are, I believe.

Per sleeper car you lose 3 bedrooms in a Viewliner, plus the Family Bedroom. You also lose 2 roomettes.

The Superliners gain that little over the Viewliners? I hadn't counted. Not much of an advantage.

The Capitol Limited generally isn't full, particularly in sleeper. Two Superliners seems to be excess capacity, but one is not enough. Two Viewliners would actually be a right-sizing... except they probably cost about the same amount to run as the Superliners.

 

[neroden]

Most of the equipment Amtrak probably needs are coaches.

As for diners, figure 4 for Silver Meteor, 4 for Crescent, 3 for Lake Shore Limited. That's 12.

If you add in 4 more for a returned Silver Star, you're up to 16.

Even if you assume 3-4 for spares (which is lousy utilization) that's 20.

You still have 5 left over.

Daily Cardinal.

 

[neroden]

You know, it's the first time I've heard that idea (converting cafe-lounges) to coaches, which makes sense.

So great, now you have enough for one more train. It's a start but...

The Amfleet II cafe-lounges are generally pretty underutilized on the LSL, except when they're pretending to be dining cars. Converting them to coaches makes sense. Converting them to cafe / business-class also makes sense.

 

[neroden]

An all-Viewliner train would look somewhat interesting... Kind of oddly shaped...

Here's hoping.

Thanks for the photos, and I'm glad the production rate is starting to look like we might see some progress. If two a month keeps up, we might see Viewdiners on the LSL before my trip to the NARP meeting in November. :crosses fingers:

 

[PVD]

I thought that the AM2 lounge on the LSL was swapped for cafe/bc originating in Boston and the lounge that is running is the substitute for the diner?

 

[RPC]

Maybe make the Capital Limited a Viewliner train and move the Superliner cars that are freed up to the western LD routes? I am not sure all the coaches are needed but the sleepers are, I believe.

Per sleeper car you lose 3 bedrooms in a Viewliner, plus the Family Bedroom. You also lose 2 roomettes.

You actually lose 4 bedrooms. (Superliner has 6 bedrooms plus handicapped, Viewliner has 2 bedrooms plus handicapped.)

 

[DSS&A]

There was the option for 30 more cars, but zero word that Amtrak ever (or will ever) exercise it.

I think it would be great if they could, but then the question is, to what point?

How much longer could they make existing trains? (keep in mind with the new sleepers and baggage-dorms, most trains will already see a 50% or more increase in sleeper space).

And, other than perhaps a sleeper on 66/67, and returning something like Three Rivers, where could they use this new equipment?

Every single eastern train with sleepers could use an additional sleeper. There needs to be a through sleeper on the Pennsy to the Capitol Limited. The LSL could fill two if the Pennsy/Cap through cars aren't reinstated. The Cardinal needs to go daily. 66/67 needs a sleeper.That's 4 + 4 + 4 (southern trains) + 6 (LSL/Pennsy/Cap) + 2 (66/67) + 4 or 6 (Cardinal) = 24 to 26. Add shop time and you're up to 29 or 30 already. 25 sleepers and 10 half-sleepers are just barely enough to cover this.

What happens when -- as it will -- demand goes up *again*? What if both the Pennsy/Cap route and the LSL route have booming demand (as they will) and it becomes desirable to add another car to each (6 more)? What happens when there are some wrecks? What happens if there is a sound business case for another sleeper train, say, a second train on the LSL route at different hours? (If there is a sound business case for another sleeper train, it'll be going to NY, I'm quite sure, so it'll require single-levels.)

Just allowing for wrecks means they should order an extra 5 sleepers and an extra 5 bag-dorms. Allowing for predictable demand increases calls for another 10 sleepers.

There's a shortage of Superliners and they're starting to break, and there's no sound business case to replace them except possibly on Auto Train. Converting the Capitol Limited to Viewliners would ease the pain and simplify some platform height issues.

Remember, Amtrak originally intended to order 100 Viewliner sleepers, which is about the right number. They ordered 50. This order adds 25. Another 25 would be appropriate. But even another 5 or 10 would give them some breathing room.

I agree with you. The 70 car option should be fully executed. As you stated above for a daily Cardinal and growth 5 more baggage-dorms and 25 more sleepers. I would add 2 more baggage-dorms, 2 diners and 4 more sleepers for the talked about future Dallas section of the Crescent (2 train section sets and a few LD coaches to be added somehow), 4 sleepers, converting the CL to single-level would add 2 baggage, 2 diners and 2 more sleepers to be handed off to the Pennsylvanian. Add 2 diners for the Maple Leaf trains 63/64 to replace the cafe cars. I would also add 4 baggage and 4 diners for spare/wreck protection. Your suggestion and my suggestions add to 58 cars, so 12 more to go. Anyone have other thoughts?

 

[R30A]

Maybe make the Capital Limited a Viewliner train and move the Superliner cars that are freed up to the western LD routes? I am not sure all the coaches are needed but the sleepers are, I believe.

Per sleeper car you lose 3 bedrooms in a Viewliner, plus the Family Bedroom. You also lose 2 roomettes.

You actually lose 4 bedrooms. (Superliner has 6 bedrooms plus handicapped, Viewliner has 2 bedrooms plus handicapped.)

Superliners have 5. A B C D E.

 

[tricia]

Maybe make the Capital Limited a Viewliner train and move the Superliner cars that are freed up to the western LD routes? I am not sure all the coaches are needed but the sleepers are, I believe.

Per sleeper car you lose 3 bedrooms in a Viewliner, plus the Family Bedroom. You also lose 2 roomettes.

You actually lose 4 bedrooms. (Superliner has 6 bedrooms plus handicapped, Viewliner has 2 bedrooms plus handicapped.)

Superliners have 5. A B C D E.

Plus the family bedroom, in addition to accessible bedroom.

 

[Blackwolf]

If (total fantasy here) we go down the road of single-level trains replacing Superliners, there is absolutely nothing other than "we've never done that before" stopping Amtrak from outfitting a number of Viewliner sleepers as an All Bedroom configuration, minus two roomette-sized modules (one bathroom/shower and one roomette for the attendant.) Never gonna happen, because Amtrak isn't ordering any more Viewliners and Amtrak can't think outside of their broken corporate programming to save their own hides.