Viewliner II - Part 1 - Initial Production and Delivery

[AmtrakBlue]

Well, enlighten us. How big are the shelves? How many of them are there? 5x50 lb bags per shelf doesn't mean the baggage car can only carry 5 bags. How preposterous. I'm sure the majority of the 50+ lb'ers will be on the ground. Not every checked bag is 50 lbs.

You know, even if the 250lbs/shelf is true, I don't see that being a huge problem.

I found this picture: http://history.amtrak.com/archives/viewliner-ii-baggage-car-interior-2013that I had not found before.

If I'm counting correctly that's 10 shelves per side, for a total of 20 shelves. I'm assuming there's none behind the photographer and beyond the far set of doors there are none.

So right there that's 5000lbs of shelf space.

But it looks like the one reason for the bottom set of shelves is simply to keep bags sorted (and off the dirty floor). So in theory you could just fold those up and use the floor.

Also looking further, that looks like nylon webbing, which given the size of the strap is probably easily rated for over 2000lbs, easily.

So, maybe the shelves are an issue, or maybe not, but I doubt it's a show stopper.

I count 5 shelves and bike racks on the right side

 

[StriderGDM]

Well, enlighten us. How big are the shelves? How many of them are there? 5x50 lb bags per shelf doesn't mean the baggage car can only carry 5 bags. How preposterous. I'm sure the majority of the 50+ lb'ers will be on the ground. Not every checked bag is 50 lbs.

You know, even if the 250lbs/shelf is true, I don't see that being a huge problem.

I found this picture: http://history.amtrak.com/archives/viewliner-ii-baggage-car-interior-2013that I had not found before.

If I'm counting correctly that's 10 shelves per side, for a total of 20 shelves. I'm assuming there's none behind the photographer and beyond the far set of doors there are none.

So right there that's 5000lbs of shelf space.

But it looks like the one reason for the bottom set of shelves is simply to keep bags sorted (and off the dirty floor). So in theory you could just fold those up and use the floor.

Also looking further, that looks like nylon webbing, which given the size of the strap is probably easily rated for over 2000lbs, easily.

So, maybe the shelves are an issue, or maybe not, but I doubt it's a show stopper.

I count 5 shelves and bike racks on the right side

There are from what I can tell, 4 shelves in the down position (3 on top with a gap of 2 shelves between them) and 1 in the down position on the lower level.

I don't see any bike racks in this photo. I believe they're beyond the door. My understanding is there's 5 or 10 per car and will hold the bikes in a vertical (i.e front wheel high) position.

 

[printman2000]

I am pretty sure the bike racks are the shelves folded up. So all the racks can be bike racks.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I am pretty sure the bike racks are the shelves folded up. So all the racks can be bike racks.

Looks like it. I found this picture showing just that.

 

[StriderGDM]

I am pretty sure the bike racks are the shelves folded up. So all the racks can be bike racks.

Looks like it. I found this picture showing just that.

VERY interesting. I was curious about that in the photo I posted since it looked like the spacing on the cross bars was about right.

Very nice design. No wonder there's some training involved. You can't simply toss some bikes in there.

 

[jis]

Looking at the pictures, I am a bit puzzled about what the issue is. Looks like even if there is a problem with shelf loads, one could simply forgo deploying the lower shelf and pile the heavies on the floor. They could still deploy the upper shelf to stow large number of lighter bags on them without placing additional load on the baggage on the floor. What gives? Why do the shelves have to remain undeployed. I simply do not get it, unless of course it is assumed that the baggage handlers lack any bit of brain above the stem, which would be a very unfair assumption IMHO.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Common sense should prevail here. Simply post placards on the wall outling shelf capacity and with a pict-o-gram of how to deploy the shelves. Hang a few Bungee Cords on the wall to run between the angled starrping to hold in lighter loads and everything should be good to go. And if there is concern about bags getting dirty from the floor, put a Mop and Bucket rig in there.

 

[KmH]

Engineering the shelves and determining what fasteners are needed to attach the shelves to the wall of the car would be a Mechanical Engineering 201 project.

It sure ain't rocket science.

It behooves the baggage car loader to put the heaviest baggage as close to (or on) the floor as possible to keep the CoG (Center of Gravity) of the car as low as possible.

an added bonus is the baggage car loader wouldn't have to work as hard either.

 

[Guest]

Well, enlighten us. How big are the shelves? How many of them are there? 5x50 lb bags per shelf doesn't mean the baggage car can only carry 5 bags. How preposterous. I'm sure the majority of the 50+ lb'ers will be on the ground. Not every checked bag is 50 lbs.

You know, even if the 250lbs/shelf is true, I don't see that being a huge problem.

I found this picture: http://history.amtrak.com/archives/viewliner-ii-baggage-car-interior-2013that I had not found before.

If I'm counting correctly that's 10 shelves per side, for a total of 20 shelves. I'm assuming there's none behind the photographer and beyond the far set of doors there are none.

So right there that's 5000lbs of shelf space.

But it looks like the one reason for the bottom set of shelves is simply to keep bags sorted (and off the dirty floor). So in theory you could just fold those up and use the floor.

Also looking further, that looks like nylon webbing, which given the size of the strap is probably easily rated for over 2000lbs, easily.

So, maybe the shelves are an issue, or maybe not, but I doubt it's a show stopper.

The 250 lbs per is true. That is not many bags and the baggage department and conductors enroute don't have any way to weigh the baggage so it is not safe to use them. The car is poorly designed. Not only the shelves. Apparently the designers of the interior had no experiance with trains. It is not a show stopper. The baggage will be piled on the floor as it is now.

The Viewliner baggage cars will be in service starting Monday. I was going to mention the first train they would be on but because of your attitudes I will let you watch for them on every train.

 

[Bob Dylan]

The Statement that Conductors and baggage handlers have no way to weigh checked baggage enroute is not correct!

All checked baggage has to be 50 lbs or less and it is weighed in the station before it can be checked!

Rule of thumb for Conductors and baggage handlers: 5x50= 250!!!

Good news that the bag cars are going into service starting Monday, the obvious trains to get them first are the Silver Trains and the Lake Shore Ltd.

There will most certainly be plenty of rail fans spotting them and posting pics and reports on the various rail sites including AU!!

 

[Guest]

I am pretty sure the bike racks are the shelves folded up. So all the racks can be bike racks.

Looks like it. I found this picture showing just that.

VERY interesting. I was curious about that in the photo I posted since it looked like the spacing on the cross bars was about right.

Very nice design. No wonder there's some training involved. You can't simply toss some bikes in there.

The bikes don't require much training. The baggage car doors and latches, the electric lockers, air vents, location of safety equipment, location of the hand brake, and pretty importantly the location of the truck cut out valves under the cars, bleed valve under the car, brake cut out and bleed valves inside the car requires the crew training.

Also if the cars activate a wayside hot box detector if the templestick does not melt you can continue at normal speed. If it activates a wayside dectector a second time then the car has to be set out. I had to scratch my head at first about that rule but then looking at the trucks I noticed for some reason they have used roller bearings.

 

[Ryan]

Yeah, that bit of common sense seems obvious, I'm sure that most folks will do just fine. The rest? Well, they're finding a way to manage now...

The Viewliner baggage cars will be in service starting Monday. I was going to mention the first train they would be on but because of your attitudes I will let you watch for them on every train.

Oh no, the horrors.

Thanks for all of the "valuable" information you've brought to the thread.

 

[printman2000]

The Statement that Conductors and baggage handlers have no way to weigh checked baggage enroute is not correct!

All checked baggage has to be 50 lbs or less and it is weighed in the station before it can be checked!

Rule of thumb for Conductors and baggage handlers: 5x50= 250!!!

And I doubt you could fit more than 5 on one of those shelves.

 

[DryCreek]

"Very nice design. No wonder there's some training involved. You can't simply toss some bikes in there."


A few of my co-workers that ride in long distance races pay more for their bicycles than I did for the first three or four vehicles I bought!

The least expensive of them is around $2,500. The triathlon guys pay way more than that. We just have a couple of American Made Huffy's from the early 90's. They're heavy for todays standards for mountain bikes, but they sure are sturdy. Oh, and we only paid a little over $125 each for them way back then too!

 

[Guest]

The Statement that Conductors and baggage handlers have no way to weigh checked baggage enroute is not correct!

All checked baggage has to be 50 lbs or less and it is weighed in the station before it can be checked!

Rule of thumb for Conductors and baggage handlers: 5x50= 250!!!

And I doubt you could fit more than 5 on one of those shelves.

It doesn't matter. Baggage is not going to be loaded on the shelves.

 

[Guest]

"Very nice design. No wonder there's some training involved. You can't simply toss some bikes in there."


A few of my co-workers that ride in long distance races pay more for their bicycles than I did for the first three or four vehicles I bought!

The least expensive of them is around $2,500. The triathlon guys pay way more than that. We just have a couple of American Made Huffy's from the early 90's. They're heavy for todays standards for mountain bikes, but they sure are sturdy. Oh, and we only paid a little over $125 each for them way back then too!

If I had a $2500 bike there is no way I would put my $2500 bike in those baggage cars.

 

[printman2000]

It doesn't matter. Baggage is not going to be loaded on the shelves.

Forgive me if I do not take your word for it, Guest poster.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

If the shelves are a total mess, Amtrak will be doing the right thing to just go ahead with what they've got. Presumably new shelves can be designed and manufactured. That will take time.

Meanwhile, let's move on to the diners and the sleepers, please!

 

[Guest]

It doesn't matter. Baggage is not going to be loaded on the shelves.

Forgive me if I do not take your word for it, Guest poster.

Obviously you have not had the new baggage car training! LOL

 

[Guest]

If the shelves are a total mess, Amtrak will be doing the right thing to just go ahead with what they've got. Presumably new shelves can be designed and manufactured. That will take time.

Meanwhile, let's move on to the diners and the sleepers, please!

I wonder if the new diners and sleepers will have roller bearings.

 

[Agent]

...looking at the trucks I noticed for some reason they have used roller bearings.

Journal boxes haven't been used in a long time.

 

[neroden]

The 250 lbs per is true.

OK, thanks for the information. That's 5 bags. Wanna be on the safe side? Call it 4 bags.

That is not many bags and the baggage department and conductors enroute don't have any way to weigh the baggage so it is not safe to use them.

This is simply, flatly, false. Every single station I've ever checked baggage at has a baggage weighing scale. There is also a consistent 50 lb limit. I have only seen a few bags go around the weighing machines (because they were weird oversized things like wheelchairs and skis) and they were marked with special tags.
Are there some stations without baggage scales? Perhaps. But it looks like there are entire routes where all the stations with baggage service DO have scales. Adding scales to a few rural stations is within Amtrak's budget.

It may require retraining of the baggage handlers to actually remind them to weigh all the bags. But if the 250 lb. limit is really the only issue, then it's not an issue with the shelves; the shelves are just fine. Although the baggage handlers and conductors may need retraining, and perhaps some stations may need added equipment.

The car is poorly designed. Not only the shelves. Apparently the designers of the interior had no experiance with trains.

The Viewliner interiors are mostly by the experts at RailPlan, who have more experience with trains than most of Amtrak. I don't know about the baggage car interiors specifically though. The rest of the car is designed by CAF, who have more experience with trains than anyone at Amtrak does. I think I can say without fear of contradiction that the *design* is good. If there are any serious problems, they're either *construction* problems (as opposed to design problems) or they're training/operational problems on Amtrak's end.

 

[PRR 60]

The 250 lbs per is true.

OK, thanks for the information. That's 5 bags. Wanna be on the safe side? Call it 4 bags.

That is not many bags and the baggage department and conductors enroute don't have any way to weigh the baggage so it is not safe to use them.

This is simply, flatly, false. Every single station I've ever checked baggage at has a baggage weighing scale. There is also a consistent 50 lb limit. I have only seen a few bags go around the weighing machines (because they were weird oversized things like wheelchairs and skis) and they were marked with special tags.
Are there some stations without baggage scales? Perhaps. But it looks like there are entire routes where all the stations with baggage service DO have scales. Adding scales to a few rural stations is within Amtrak's budget.

It may require retraining of the baggage handlers to actually remind them to weigh all the bags. But if the 250 lb. limit is really the only issue, then it's not an issue with the shelves; the shelves are just fine. Although the baggage handlers and conductors may need retraining, and perhaps some stations may need added equipment.

The car is poorly designed. Not only the shelves. Apparently the designers of the interior had no experiance with trains.

The Viewliner interiors are mostly by the experts at RailPlan, who have more experience with trains than most of Amtrak. I don't know about the baggage car interiors specifically though. The rest of the car is designed by CAF, who have more experience with trains than anyone at Amtrak does. I think I can say without fear of contradiction that the *design* is good. If there are any serious problems, they're either *construction* problems (as opposed to design problems) or they're training/operational problems on Amtrak's end.

Since the baggage cars, and specifically the cantilever shelving, is a new use for the basic Viewliner shell, and that shell design was likely provided to CAF by Amtrak as a basis for the car detailing, it is not impossible that the shelf load inadequacy, assuming there is one, is a base design issue on Amtrak's side of the project. Cantilever shelving for normal baggage loading, including dynamic and safety factors, puts a pretty large twisting action on the side wall of the car. It is not the type of load that would happen in a sleeper or diner design. I'm not saying that is the situation, but to simply eliminate a base design inadequacy as even a possibility is not a valid conclusion.

 

[PerRock]

The car is poorly designed. Not only the shelves. Apparently the designers of the interior had no experiance with trains.

The Viewliner interiors are mostly by the experts at RailPlan, who have more experience with trains than most of Amtrak. I don't know about the baggage car interiors specifically though. The rest of the car is designed by CAF, who have more experience with trains than anyone at Amtrak does. I think I can say without fear of contradiction that the *design* is good. If there are any serious problems, they're either *construction* problems (as opposed to design problems) or they're training/operational problems on Amtrak's end.

And based off from the Guest's posts about this, it seems to more be a training/operational issue, then an actual problem. It sounds to me that our guest (I presume he works for Amtrak & deals with baggage) just doesn't want to be arsed to load the train correctly, and would rather complain that the cars aren't built the way he would like them to be.

peter

 

[Bjartmarr]

Cantilever shelving for normal baggage loading, including dynamic and safety factors, puts a pretty large twisting action on the side wall of the car. It is not the type of load that would happen in a sleeper or diner design. I'm not saying that is the situation, but to simply eliminate a base design inadequacy as even a possibility is not a valid conclusion.

That's the kind of thing that freshman college students have to figure out. (Huh, I guess I can't screw this bookshelf into the drywall and expect it to hold up!) I can't imagine that the engineers who designed the car forgot about supporting the weight of the bags.

So, without going too much into which trains get them first, I imagine that Amtrak's priorities are replacing Heritage cars on (1) routes that have >110mph sections, (2) routes where snow gets inside the cars, (3) routes with long desolate sections where a Heritage car breakdown is especially troublesome, (4) replacing all the rest of the Heritage baggage, and (5) adding bags to routes that currently don't have them. Does that sound accurate?

I'd really like to see "routes that have heavy bike traffic" on that list, but I think that's wishful thinking on my part.