The next few years

[neroden]

I'm not 100% sure why New Haven - Hartford renovations have been so expensive but I get the impression the line was *very* decrepit.

"When we went out to do a complete inspection of every bridge and culvert, we found the line to be in very, very poor shape compared to what anybody expected,"

Hartford is on hold pending the highway relocation, but will probably be funded by the highway project, which will probably happen eventually.

Of course the funded portion is only half of the project! Hartford-Springfield is going to need a lot of work too. I don't know when that's going to get funded! They've done signal cabling all the way to Springfield, and track and signals as far as Windsor (skipping Hartford), but they will eventually need to do structures from Hartford to Springfield, and that looks like a *lot* of culverts and bridges.

 

[Andrew]

This could change things up a bit:

http://www.schumer.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/schumer-booker-amtrak-chair-announce_breakthroughs-achieved-in-just-passed-transpo-bill-that-provides-clear-path-to-federal-funding-for-gateway-tunnel-new-law-puts-gateway-on-track-for-billions-of-much-needed-additional-federal-dollars

 

[west point]

IMO all the proposals on the table merit future implementation. However until the equipment to implement these additions and expansions of current trains this is only intellectual scrimmage. Once additional LD single level V-2s are ordered in significant numbers ( Approximately 500 - 700 ) these east coast routes can be planned upon delivery. That will include new coaches, lounges to displace the Amfleet-2s to corridor service then to surge fleet. As well all these proposals will need more V-2 sleepers & diners as the present order will only fill out present single level trains.

The need for addition diesel locos will also be noted and maybe even a few more electric motors.

Additional Superliner (TYPE) will be needed for the LD trains bulking out using them and new routes.

Amtrak needs the surge fleet of the older equipment for heavy travel periods. That way Amfleet-2s , Superliner-1s, and eventually Horizons and Amfleet-1s can be pulled out for these rush periods. This past Thanksgiving and into this month has shown that there is more demand than supply

 

[Andrew]

IMO all the proposals on the table merit future implementation. However until the equipment to implement these additions and expansions of current trains this is only intellectual scrimmage. Once additional LD single level V-2s are ordered in significant numbers ( Approximately 500 - 700 ) these east coast routes can be planned upon delivery. That will include new coaches, lounges to displace the Amfleet-2s to corridor service then to surge fleet. As well all these proposals will need more V-2 sleepers & diners as the present order will only fill out present single level trains.

The need for addition diesel locos will also be noted and maybe even a few more electric motors.

Additional Superliner (TYPE) will be needed for the LD trains bulking out using them and new routes.

Amtrak needs the surge fleet of the older equipment for heavy travel periods. That way Amfleet-2s , Superliner-1s, and eventually Horizons and Amfleet-1s can be pulled out for these rush periods. This past Thanksgiving and into this month has shown that there is more demand than supply

Do you know if a new Amfleet coach order is likely to happen soon?

Also, I thought that the new Nippon Sharyo coaches are going to replace the Superliners?

 

[Eric S]

Also, I thought that the new Nippon Sharyo coaches are going to replace the Superliners?

The bilevel coaches that have been ordered for California and Midwest corridor service?

 

[MikefromCrete]

The N-S cars are for Midwest and California state-supported services. A few Superliners on the west coast might become available, but most will free up Horizon cars and some Amfleets.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

So far as I am aware nobody has discussed replacing or refurbishing any of the remaining Superliner fleet or long distance locomotives. There will be some brand new 1980's era baggage cars with fluted skirts and that's about it. Even if Amtrak started discussing Superliner replacements today the final delivery would probably be a decade or more away.

 

[west point]

What is needed is funds now to order more V-2s and NS cars configured for LD service. As stated before until that happens Amtrak is being strangled by the Amtrak haters who hope it will go away before there is too many US persons wanting more. Many persons who have talked to that return from Europe or Japan want more. Any one experience with China ?

 

[neroden]

So far as I am aware nobody has discussed replacing or refurbishing any of the remaining Superliner fleet or long distance locomotives.

There's an option on the Siemens Charger contract which is very clearly for Amtrak long distance locomotives. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they find a way to exercise part of it. Replacing the long-distance diesel fleet is definitely on Amtrak's radar.

The fleet strategy has separate plans for locomotives and for cars. It very clearly contemplates replacing the Amfleet IIs next, and then the Amfleet Is. There really is no plan for replacing the Superliners in the next decade.

 

[keelhauled]

In the ongoing saga of the Schenectady station replacement, it is again going out to bid for a second time in hopes of attracting lower bids. On the first try, the only bidder came back with a bid twice the budget. Supposedly, if the state awards the contract this fall, the station would be built by the end of 2018.

 

[afigg]

Hope NY DOT succeeds in getting a new acceptable bid for the Schenectady station, so the dang station can get built. The new SCH station project has been dragging on for years and years.

With this thread popping back up, I searched for updates on a few of the projects.

Found this INDOT webpage for the Indiana Gateway project. Not sure if the website has been kept up to date, but the construction photos indicate that someone has been updating it. if the info is correct, all of the Indiana Gateway component projects will be completed in 2016. Which is good news for the Michigan trains, CL, and LSL.

Springfield MA Union Station project site. Construction photos from as recent as March 22, 2016. States that the restored station is scheduled to open in Fall of 2016.

Expanded West End Concourse at NYP. Found a PDF document from a November, 2015 meeting of the directors of the Moynihan Station Redevelopment Corporation that expanded West End Concourse project was on schedule at that time to be completed in August 2016.

So three improvement projects that should finally be completed by the end of this year.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

. . . Amtrak is being strangled by the Amtrak haters who hope it will go away before there are too many [voters] wanting more. Many who I have talked to [after] returning from Europe or Japan want more. Any one experience with China ?

My nephew sells a line of products made by several suppliers, mostly in various places in China. He said he used to fly to visit the factories all over the country, but now he takes the High Speed trains.

He'd be even more enthusiastic about passenger trains if he didn't live and do business in a city with 3-days-a-week service.

 

[cirdan]

So far as I am aware nobody has discussed replacing or refurbishing any of the remaining Superliner fleet or long distance locomotives.

There's an option on the Siemens Charger contract which is very clearly for Amtrak long distance locomotives. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they find a way to exercise part of it. Replacing the long-distance diesel fleet is definitely on Amtrak's radar.

The fleet strategy has separate plans for locomotives and for cars. It very clearly contemplates replacing the Amfleet IIs next, and then the Amfleet Is. There really is no plan for replacing the Superliners in the next decade.

I can see the motivation.

On the other hand, it's not necessarily good future proofing to replace everything you've got in one go, because that would dry up the market for future orders for a long time and thus prevent any onward development or showcasing of new innovations. Also, when all the stuff comes due for replacement that will be an awful lot of investment required in one bang and thus put the future of Amtrak at the mercy of whoever will be in government then.

The optimal situation is to have an even spread of different ages so you are basically replacing stuff and bringing in new stuff all the time without it blowing your budget.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

For both the single-level coach fleet and the Superliners, the plan was to get them over 5 or 6 years or more, about 100 cars a year. Ordering hundreds at a time gets the best price. Clearly Amtrak is thinking to do single-level first, maybe the whole order, then do the bi-level fleet.

In a Fleet Plan document some years back, Amtrak declared its hope to rebuild the passenger railcar industry, from suppliers to competing manufacturers. But when the haters slashed the budgets, they may have killed off that industry revival.

 

[jis]

The real problem faced by Amtrak is that due to various reasons, some in its control and some not, it is stuck with requiring a dedicated production line which produces cars for it and maybe a small additional set for a few that are willing to tag on, and that is the end of useful life of the production line. This is what raises unit costs, and Amtrak really is not large enough to maintain a cost effective production line over a long period of time.

AAF specifically went with an off the shelf car from Siemens to avoid exactly this problem. They can reap most of the advantage of a well established design, though they still have to eat some additional cost for setting up an instance of a well understood production line in California.For whatever reason of their own, Siemens is actually not loading up the entire cost of it onto AAF, possibly because they believe that eventually they can get other customers in the US.

Meanwhile, the Viewliner saga carries on ....

 

[A Voice]

But when the haters slashed the budgets, they may have killed off that industry revival.

Why, why, why does anyone who takes a differing opinion have to be labeled a "hater"? Critics of passenger rail do indeed take a narrow-minded, short sighted view of the situation (often for ideological reasons), but that only makes them (badly) mistaken or misinformed and doesn't mean they are a "hater"; Rather, more often, they just fundamentally don't understand passenger rail.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

But when the haters slashed the budgets, they may have killed off that industry revival.

Why, why, why does anyone who takes a differing opinion have to be labeled a "hater"? Critics of passenger rail do indeed take a narrow-minded, short sighted view of the situation (often for ideological reasons), but that only makes them (badly) mistaken or misinformed and doesn't mean they are a "hater"; Rather, more often, they just fundamentally don't understand passenger rail.

Have you ever seen an anti-rail protest or read anti-rail postings on news websites? Failing to understand passenger rail doesn't explain the flippant mockery and personal attacks they lob indiscriminately at passenger rail supporters and customers alike. If you casually hate anything you don't fundamentally understand then why shouldn't you be called a hater?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

The real problem faced by Amtrak is that . . it is stuck with requiring a dedicated production line which produces cars for it and maybe a small additional set for a few that are willing to tag on, and that is the end of useful life of the production line. This is what raises unit costs, and Amtrak really is not large enough to maintain a cost effective production line over a long period of time.

. . . an off the shelf car [e.g. from Siemens] . . . can reap most of the advantage of a well established design . . .

Another excellent example that the cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak! With more routes, more trains, more cars in the consists, and bigger fleets meaning larger orders for more cars wins a lower average cost for all the cars in the order.

So make the Cardinal and Sunset daily, extend the City of New Orleans to Orlando, restore a Broadway Ltd to serve Philly, start up the fabled "day train" to Atlanta, put 6 trains a day on the short cut Richmond-Petersburg-Raleigh, revive the Coast Daylight L.A.-S.F., run 2 or 3 more frequencies Philly-Pgh, get another train CHI-MSP, add more corridor service like Ft Worth-Dallas-Longview-Shreveport, Baton Rouge-New Orleans, CHI-Carbondale-Memphis, Cincy-Indy-CHI, etc.

Then order another 100 or 200 or 300 coaches and lounges for growth[/b/]. The greater volume discount with the added cars for growth would reduce the unit cost of the 500 or 600 needed simply for replacement.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Another excellent example that the cure for what ails Amtrak is more Amtrak! With more routes, more trains, more cars in the consists, and bigger fleets meaning larger orders for more cars wins a lower average cost for all the cars in the order.

So make the Cardinal and Sunset daily, extend the City of New Orleans to Orlando, restore a Broadway Ltd to serve Philly, start up the fabled "day train" to Atlanta, put 6 trains a day on the short cut Richmond-Petersburg-Raleigh, revive the Coast Daylight L.A.-S.F., run 2 or 3 more frequencies Philly-Pgh, get another train CHI-MSP, add more corridor service like Ft Worth-Dallas-Longview-Shreveport, Baton Rouge-New Orleans, CHI-Carbondale-Memphis, Cincy-Indy-CHI, etc.

Then order another 100 or 200 or 300 coaches and lounges for growth[/b/]. The greater volume discount with the added cars for growth would reduce the unit cost of the 500 or 600 needed simply for replacement.

 

 

Can I get an amen!

 

[jis]

The trick as always is to find the money. Since it seems unlikely that huge pots of money will be found, the other solution is to get used to using off the shelf equipment even though might be sub optimal at times. but you are then able to piggy back on others multi thousand car orders and gain the cost advantage anyway.

 

[neroden]

Not this year, but next year, if the budget gods smile upon them, VIA Rail might finally make a new rolling stock order. Their needs are going to be similar to Amtrak's single-level needs, so I hope they're talking to each other...

 

[jis]

My guess is Siemens is angling to get the VIA order, since VIA is not hamstrung with the various encumbrances that Amtrak has built for itself. They can never get as good a price if they jump in bed with Amtrak at this point, unless Amtrak chooses to and is able to, abandon one bed and move to another, if you know what I mean

 

[neroden]

My guess is Siemens is angling to get the VIA order, since VIA is not hamstrung with the various encumbrances that Amtrak has built for itself. They can never get as good a price if they jump in bed with Amtrak at this point, unless Amtrak chooses to and is able to, abandon one bed and move to another, if you know what I mean

Well, Amtrak needs single-level coaches. And lounge/cafes. Lots. And VIA needs single-level coaches. And lounge/cafes. But not very many. I think in those categories it might be worth it for Amtrak to see if it can tag on to any hypothetical VIA order.

 

[jis]

My point is that Amtrak could try. But I think VIA could get better prices in the much larger world market. Amtrak has no hope of creating a market that large in the US in the near to middle term, specially when the real large mass purchasers of the commuter agencies are not part of it.

 

[neroden]

I don't think VIA can get better prices in the world market. AAF has essentially the same regulatory restrictions as Amtrak... and *so does VIA*, thanks to Transport Canada for copying US regulations.