The Floridian and the AutoTrain

[xyzzy]

The City of Miami also ran over a doomed ACL line between Albany and Waycross, 112 miles. It had very few online freight customers and no through freight, either, following Southern's acquisition of the Central of Georgia in 1962. I don't think SCL spent a penny to maintain it after 1971, and CSX eventually abandoned most of it in 1985. Even if Amtrak had originally chosen the City of Miami route instead of the South Wind, I doubt the City of Miami route could have been kept for long. In theory the train could have been rerouted Albany-Thomasville-Waycross, but Albany-Thomasville was a slow secondary line by that time (passenger trains down the Perry cutoff having been discontinued in 1957).

Columbus-Americus on the ex-CofG has been out of service for many years now, although the rails remain in place (I think).

 

[George Harris]

The City of Miami also ran over a doomed ACL line between Albany and Waycross, 112 miles. It had very few online freight customers and no through freight, either, following Southern's acquisition of the Central of Georgia in 1962. I don't think SCL spent a penny to maintain it after 1971, and CSX eventually abandoned most of it in 1985. Even if Amtrak had originally chosen the City of Miami route instead of the South Wind, I doubt the City of Miami route could have been kept for long. In theory the train could have been rerouted Albany-Thomasville-Waycross, but Albany-Thomasville was a slow secondary line by that time (passenger trains down the Perry cutoff having been discontinued in 1957).

Columbus-Americus on the ex-CofG has been out of service for many years now, although the rails remain in place (I think).

And that is only part of it. Fulton KY south was also getting in bad shape. Even in 1962 Fulton to Jackson TN was really rough riding. Can't say for south of there. But all this was sold off by ICG eventually. That which remains north of Russleville AL no longer has signals. (Russelville south was on trackage rights Southern to Jasper AL then Frisco the rest of the way to B'ham. That part was and is in reasonably good condition, but was anything but fast, being one curve after another.)

 

[railiner]

One thing that I recall in the era just prior to Amtrak, in comparing the City of Miami, with the South Wind.....

In the last few years of its existence, the City was under the inspired direction of Illinois Central's director of passenger service, Paul H. Reistrup, (who later was chosen to head Amtrak). The South Wind was under the cloud of the notorious Penn Central..... :unsure:

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

After the mid-1950's the major midwest to Florida traffic by rail was the City of Miami / South Wind duo. The every third day Dixie Flagler died somewhere in here. These were all two days one night to Miami. Their schedules, particularly the South Wind and Dixie Flagler were wound pretty tight. In fact, I think that is why the Flagler died first. It's schedule was nearly impossible unless everything went perfectly or there was major bending of the speed limits, possibly both. At the advent of Amtrak, only the City of Miami remained as a through train, and it was in decline due to the decline of the ICG.

The two nights and two days trains were still reliable up until their end, but their declining passenger loadings made that meaningless. In fact, by the early 60's all the through slepers were gone, You had late evening departures from several places, such as Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland that got you into Cincinatti early morning, from which you took the Royal Palm to Jacksonville one day and one night to Jacksonville. Somewhere before 1960, the alternative Southland on the L&N dissapeared. The Southland had an advantage for those destined to West Coast (of Florida) points in that it did not go through Jacksonville. The day trains to Cincinatti and then on overnights to Altanta never did as well, mainly because it was evening again by the time you got to Jacksonville.

Since we can today do no better than the 1950ish trains, with much better roads today and the air service we have, there is little point in reintroducing Midwest to Florida service, much as I would like to see it.

It would probably be cheaper to upgrade track on some route between Chicago to Louisville so that the distance could again be done in about 6 hours and Montgomery to Waycross back to a 59 mph speed limit than it would be to do what it would take to be able to achieve the same run time via Atlanta, considering the amount of second main it would take for reliability and curve revisions or other line changes needed in the light that 6 inches superelevation is no longer practical with the high center of gravity of freight of today. Perhaps the best move would be to forget Louisville and do the upgrades on teh old C&EI-L&N between Chicago adn Nashville. Yes, this line is heavily freight trafficed, but it is fairly straight. We would be talking mainly about a lot of second main and additional or extended sidings, but the distance is shorter than via Louisville, about 450 miles via Evansville versus 490 miles via Louisville.

I often suspected that Amtrak added population of on-line cities to decide that the South Wind Route should be used instead of teh City of Miami route. They sohould have looked at which one had teh better ridership which was the City of Miami. However, evn that may not have made a difference. I think the main thing that killed it was the detriorating condition of all lines involved. If they had gone the City of Miami route, everything north of Russelville AL, where it went from trakage routes on the southern to ICG ownership was falling apart. For the South Wind route, that was everything north of Montgomery AL as that was either L&N or Penn Central.

Good read, George,as usual.

Expand on the Dixie Flagler. It was renamed the Dixieland Dec 1954 and discontinued November 1957 It was given new pullmans and coaches,but diner and lounges stayed the same.

The west coast cars of the Southland ware discontinued about the same time You could still ride it Cincinnati to JAX in conjunction with the Dixie Flyer via Atlanta..

It was too, too bad for the Dixieland and the Southland to be discontinued. But the railroads made lemonade out of the lemons and put Chicago to west coast through coaches and pullmans on the South WInd and the City of Miami.via JAX This meant the South Wind got some of the new three year old cars from the DIxie Land.

In otherwords from winter 1957 on the South Wind and the City of Miami operated each every other day and had through coaches and pullmsns in this way:

Chicago to Miami

Chicago to St Petersburg

Chicago to Tampa Sarasota

Service from Chicago to the west coast cities was faster under the streamliners than it had been avoiding JAX on the Southland

In my child's mind the Dixei Flagler and/or Dixieland did a beautiful job of running on time as did the Georgian. I have reard that the South WInd had time keeping problems but I rarely saw it,as I lived in Chattanooga. The Georgian started running late when they started combining it with the Chicago section of the Humming Bird.

One time, for sure, my sister and I left Nashville on the DixieLand 20- minutes late and came to a stop in Chattanooga at straight up and down on time. Once I saw the northbound Dixieland arrive Chattanooga 20 minutes early from Atlanta.

And of course I did a lot of just train watching without riding.

One thing I think is very true that all three of them had about a four hour turn around in Miami so all had lateness problem back in 1940 when they were first put in service.

I sort of think the reason for the Dixie FLagler/Dixeland going out first it that it was slower then the others to get complete streamlined sleepers in the winter.. Keep in mind that all three of them were originlally all coach streamliners.

 

[Nathanael]

After the mid-1950's the major midwest to Florida traffic by rail was the City of Miami / South Wind duo. The every third day Dixie Flagler died somewhere in here. These were all two days one night to Miami. Their schedules, particularly the South Wind and Dixie Flagler were wound pretty tight. In fact, I think that is why the Flagler died first. It's schedule was nearly impossible unless everything went perfectly or there was major bending of the speed limits, possibly both.

Interesting -- on a map it looks like the shortest route. Must be a lot more curves and/or grades on that route than on the routes through Birmingham...

I think the main thing that killed it was the detriorating condition of all lines involved.

Certainly. Which led me to my question: what is the current condition of the various lines involved? The ones which weren't ripped out entirely have often been improved since the dark days of the Penn Central, but how much?
Xyzzy has answered some of my questions -- thank you xyzzy. Sounds like anything would require substantial investment, probably from the state of Georgia.... so extremely unlikely. (Incidentally, the proposed very-expensive *downtown* Atlanta station would solve the station problem, but that project seems to be going nowhere.)

 

[Bob Dylan]

As always it's Great to get Info from Bill and George who are Storehouses of Knowledge about Old Days Southern Trains and Routes! We'll Never see their Like Again! But Somethings Wrong when a Major City like Atlanta has Only Two Passenger Trains a Day! (The Crescents)

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

LOL Jim. Even winning the lottery would not bring in enough money to do all that. We can't even get the Eagle into San Antonio smoothly.

Actually if we did all collectively buy Powerball tickets and got a prize (after taxes) of $250 million we could probably convince Amtrak to issue all of us lifetime rail passes in exchange for the prize money. That, or we could pay for the subsidy to run a LD route or two for awhile next time they get threatened...

Speaking of gambling with easy fiat money: wonder if Amtrak ever thought of letting the QuickTrak's mine bitcoin in the background...

 

[cirdan]

As always it's Great to get Info from Bill and George who are Storehouses of Knowledge about Old Days Southern Trains and Routes! We'll Never see their Like Again! But Somethings Wrong when a Major City like Atlanta has Only Two Passenger Trains a Day! (The Crescents)

Cities like Houston or Cincinnati get less than that even. So in a perverse way Atlanta can even consider itself lucky.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The South Wind did fairly well until it was combined with the Pan American from Louisville to Montgomery in the Fall of 1969 with only a 2 coach plus lounge car connection to and from Chicago. I went to college in Southern Indiana near Louisville from 1966 to 1971. When I started, there were still 3 daily passenger trains each way from Cincinnati through Louisville to Montgomery plus the every other day South Wind. I was on a train mostly every weekend.The South wind was $1.00 more expensive because of the seat charge than was on the Pan American, Hummingbird or Lonesome Local, but it was worth it. There was only 1 flag stop at Bowling Green between Louisville and Nashville and tracks up Muldraugh Hill were in decent shape so the SW would fly. The SW also had much better Dining Car than the Pan American and in the winter a Dome Car. Often times on a South wind trip to Nashville or Birmingham, I would spend more in the Dining Car and Bar Lounge than on the train ticket. By the time I left, Louisville in 1971, the only train still running was Amtrak's South Wind.

 

[xyzzy]

The L&N from Cincinnati to New Orleans remained in good shape for passenger trains as the Azalean, the Hummingbird, the Crescent, the Gulf Wind, and finally the Pan American were discontinued. The line got a bad rap because of SDP40F derailments in the mid-1970s, but it was simply a curvy line that SDP40F was unsuited for at high speeds.

 

[George Harris]

The South Wind did fairly well until it was combined with the Pan American from Louisville to Montgomery in the Fall of 1969 with only a 2 coach plus lounge car connection to and from Chicago. I went to college in Southern Indiana near Louisville from 1966 to 1971. When I started, there were still 3 daily passenger trains each way from Cincinnati through Louisville to Montgomery plus the every other day South Wind. I was on a train mostly every weekend.The South wind was $1.00 more expensive because of the seat charge than was on the Pan American, Hummingbird or Lonesome Local, but it was worth it. There was only 1 flag stop at Bowling Green between Louisville and Nashville and tracks up Muldraugh Hill were in decent shape so the SW would fly. The SW also had much better Dining Car than the Pan American and in the winter a Dome Car. Often times on a South wind trip to Nashville or Birmingham, I would spend more in the Dining Car and Bar Lounge than on the train ticket. By the time I left, Louisville in 1971, the only train still running was Amtrak's South Wind.

If I recall correctly, when or maybe before the combination occurred, the South Wind was no longer a through train out of Chicago. Chicago to Louisville was a connecting train, no sleepers and maybe coaches only, operated by Penn Central. When the combination was made, the Pan American was moved to the South Wind's schedule. I think Cincinatti to Louisville was also a coaches only connection, so the through Pan American ran between Louisville and New Orleans, having through equipment to Miami for the South Wind every other day between Louisville and Montgomery. the Gulf Wind was combined with the Pan at Flomaton, but the Gulf Wind had never, or at least for a long time, been on its own between new Orleans and Flomaton. This arrangement lasted until A-day.

 

[jphjaxfl]

As I mentioned when the South Wind was combined with the Pan American between Louisville and Montgomery, the Penn Central connection from Chicago to Louisville. The Pan American ran from Cincinnati to New Orleans with a 10/6 Sleeper, Counter Lounge Dining Car and coaches. At Louisville, the PA would pick up an SCL Sleeper and 2 coaches every other day. The Sleeper and 1 coach went to Miami and the other coach went to St. Pete via the old ACL route via Gainesville and Clearwater by passing Tampa. The combined PA/SW left Louisville about 4:30 PM so a little later than the SW, but several hours later than the PA. The northbound combined train arrived Louisville around 2:30PM. The PA got to Cincinnati around 5:45pm. The traffic on the South wind died without the through service, but came back after A day when the daily through South Wind with Sleepers, full diner, lounge car and coaches including domes returned. Unfortunately, the PC tracks deteriorated quick so trains ran very late and patronage dropped off dramatically. Through Chicago-Florida service through the mid South will never return.

 

[George Harris]

Concerning City of Miami Route: Somehow I had a brain spasm. The town where ICRR went onto Southern on its way to Birmingham was Haleyville. I have no idea where Russelville came from.

The route was:

ICRR main, Chicago to Fulton KY

ICRR branch to Jackson TN

ICRR trackage rights on GM&O Jackson TN to Corinth MS

ICRR back on their own track, Corinth MS to Haleyville AL

ICRR trackage rights on Southern Haleyville AL to Jasper AL

ICRR trackage rights on Frisco, Jasper AL to Birmingham AL

At Birmingham it was turned over to the Central of Georgia from there to Albany GA.

At Albany it was turned over to the ACL.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Concerning City of Miami Route: Somehow I had a brain spasm. The town where ICRR went onto Southern on its way to Birmingham was Haleyville. I have no idea where Russelville came from.

The route was:

ICRR main, Chicago to Fulton KY

ICRR branch to Jackson TN

ICRR trackage rights on GM&O Jackson TN to Corinth MS

ICRR back on their own track, Corinth MS to Haleyville AL

ICRR trackage rights on Southern Haleyville AL to Jasper AL

ICRR trackage rights on Frisco, Jasper AL to Birmingham AL

At Birmingham it was turned over to the Central of Georgia from there to Albany GA.

At Albany it was turned over to the ACL.

And at Jacksonville it was turned into FEC so much discussed these daysl

 

[railiner]

Fortunately, it was ticketed as "IC" all the way from Chicago to Birmingham. Otherwise, what a nightmare of coupons would be necessary for a thru trip, or worse, a roundtrip....

 

[George Harris]

It was still a multi part ticket:

ICRR - Chicago-Birmingham

CofG - Birmingham-Albany GA

ACL - Albany-Jacksonville

Then the South Wind:

Pennsy - Chicago-Louisville

L&N - Louisville-Montgomery AL

ACL - Montgomery-Jacksonville

Then the Dixie Flagler:

C&EI - Chicago-Evansville IN

L&N - Evansville-Nashville

NC&StL - Nashville-Atlanta

AB&C - Atlanta-Jesup GA

ACL - Jesup-Jacksonville

(to count the AB&C as separate may not be valid, as it was ACL owned for most or all the time the train operated)

This last route is the only one that still has all the track in place.

 

[xyzzy]

The Dixie Flagler (in 1948, at least) ran Atlanta-Manchester-Waycross on the AB&C and then onto Jacksonville, not via Jesup. ACL purchased the remainder of the AB&C and assimilated it in 1946.

There was a Southern train at one time that ran Atlanta-Macon-Jesup-Everett and then the SAL into Jacksonville; there may have been one that ran Atlanta-Macon-Jesup and then the ACL into Jacksonville.

 

[Notelvis]

Thanks to Notelvis for those wonderful photo's!

It is interesting seeing the Slumbercoach directly behind the engine.....I suppose the baggage car was in the rear? Was that the normal config., or just an anomaly?

Just revisiting this thread wondering about the slumbercoach being up front in one of those series of Floridian pictures I took around 1977 or 1978 -

Might that be a case where, with the train having separate sections for Miami and St. Petersburg, that there were sleepers on either end of the train as is now the case with the Empire Builder and Lake Shore Limited? Still doesn't explain having the baggage car on the rear though.

 

[railiner]

Thanks to Notelvis for those wonderful photo's!

It is interesting seeing the Slumbercoach directly behind the engine.....I suppose the baggage car was in the rear? Was that the normal config., or just an anomaly?

Just revisiting this thread wondering about the slumbercoach being up front in one of those series of Floridian pictures I took around 1977 or 1978 -

Might that be a case where, with the train having separate sections for Miami and St. Petersburg, that there were sleepers on either end of the train as is now the case with the Empire Builder and Lake Shore Limited? Still doesn't explain having the baggage car on the rear though.

Another possibility was the baggage car might have developed a mechanical defect on that trip requiring it being set out enroute.....anything is possible......

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

It was still a multi part ticket:

ICRR - Chicago-Birmingham

CofG - Birmingham-Albany GA

ACL - Albany-Jacksonville

Then the South Wind:

Pennsy - Chicago-Louisville

L&N - Louisville-Montgomery AL

ACL - Montgomery-Jacksonville

Then the Dixie Flagler:

C&EI - Chicago-Evansville IN

L&N - Evansville-Nashville

NC&StL - Nashville-Atlanta

AB&C - Atlanta-Jesup GA

ACL - Jesup-Jacksonville

(to count the AB&C as separate may not be valid, as it was ACL owned for most or all the time the train operated)

This last route is the only one that still has all the track in place.

And FEC from Jacksonville to Miami

 

[George Harris]

Yes, FEC south of Jacksonville. From Jacksonville south they were all the same. North of Jacksonville the only common station was Nashville between the South Wind and Dixie Flagler and Waycross between the Dixie Flagler and the City of Miami (not sure about that last common point) I do know the South Wind had a different stop in Waycross. At the other common points, Birmingham and Chicago, they used different stations.

 

[xyzzy]

Yes, the site of the station in Waycross required the South Wind to make a backup move. ACL tired of this and in 1951 built a small "Oklahoma Avenue" station just west of the switch leading to Jacksonville. The South Wind and later the Floridian used the Oklahoma Avenue stop. The Waycross station remained in use for other passenger trains until all of them were either discontinued or rerouted via Nahunta (or on the ex-SAL, for a while) to bypass Waycross. The building was renovated in the 1990s as office space.