ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
Reminds me of making a model layout and being unable to fit the roads and tracks in, so just kind of making them all one in the same...
The Floridian and the AutoTrain
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Nice photo trip back in history. Thanks for sharing these with us. It only serves to show how nice things were back then and how nice they could be again. While there might be demand for a Midwest Autotrain and certainly there would be demand for a new Floridian; at this point we can only dream about it. The equipment necessary, funds to refurbish and re-establish the former Monon and L&N routes are just not there.
Micah - the tracks were in the road there in New Albany because the train ran in the middle of the bridge with car lanes on each side.
In terms of the route of the 1979 Floridian: the ex-L&N between Louisville and Montgomery remains capable of handling passenger trains at 70 mph. The ex-ACL between Montgomery and Waycross is unsignaled, and speed limits on some of it have fallen since 1979 -- but the line could probably be restored to 59 mph for passenger without undue expense until PTC is mandated (assuming it will be eventually). A chunk of the ex-Monon was abandoned.
It would be possible to bypass Montgomery and run Birmingham-Waycross direct. This line is fully signaled, shorter than the route through Montgomery, and could support passenger trains at 70. However it carries very heavy freight traffic and it has low online population. CSX would not be keen to add passenger trains to that route.
No route through Atlanta is operationally feasible for several reasons.
The former City of Miami route via Corinth, Birmingham, Columbus, and Albany has been broken by multiple abandonments.
It would be possible to bypass Montgomery and run Birmingham-Waycross direct. This line is fully signaled, shorter than the route through Montgomery, and could support passenger trains at 70. However it carries very heavy freight traffic and it has low online population. CSX would not be keen to add passenger trains to that route.
No route through Atlanta is operationally feasible for several reasons.
The former City of Miami route via Corinth, Birmingham, Columbus, and Albany has been broken by multiple abandonments.
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ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
Gives a whole different perspective on the "RoW" lol...
I'm not going to quote the image because of size, but you have no idea how strange it is to see the Deland station sans 35 years of vegetation growth. Next time I'm down there I will need to scramble off the Meteor (or Star) and snap a shot of the station from the same position just for comparison.
And yet, from a railfan point of view, it provided a great opportunity to ride over several segments that lost passenger service with the coming of Amtrak....
Between the Floridian and the Cardinal, (and their predecessor names), there were so many reroutes in search of better tracks.....
Got to ride south from Chicago via Kankakee, Danville, Logansport, Peru, etc..........
Thanks to Notelvis for those wonderful photo's!
It is interesting seeing the Slumbercoach directly behind the engine.....I suppose the baggage car was in the rear? Was that the normal config., or just an anomaly?
It is interesting seeing the Slumbercoach directly behind the engine.....I suppose the baggage car was in the rear? Was that the normal config., or just an anomaly?
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One also has to consider that Chicago - Florida and NEC - Florida are different markets. Because of the possible route configurations, the shortest rail route between Chicago and FL was 7 hours longer than the NYC/NEC - Florida route. Second, there is not as much of an affinity among Midwesterners for going to Florida. Many will go to southern AZ, or south TX, or elsewhere (some of us even enjoy ski trips, or activities such as ice skating). One also has to take into consideration that many people will immediately compare train travel time to drive time. In numerous parts of the US, a train would have to have an average speed of 60 mph in order to rival drive times on the Midwest. Hisotorically, many trains such as the C&NW 400, or the Burlington's Zephyr, or the MILW Hiawathas, had to attain speeds of 100 mph or greater in order to reach the average speed of 60 mph. The current schedule of CHI - DC - FL isn't that much slower than than several historical schedules between the Midwest and FL. Read through http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/ and note the speeds and travel times between the Midwest and FL.
Third, several of the larger midwestern cities are spread out, while the cities along the East Coast lines are all in a line. Historical train service would go fan out to St Louis, or KC, or CHI, or Michigan, upon reaching interchange cities such as Louisville or Memphis or Evansville IN, or Cincinnati.
Before one proposes service between the Midwest and FL one has to take these, and other, factors into consideration. I too would like to see service directly between the Midwest & FL, but I don't expect such service to be resurrected any time soon. I think I'll see service return through Madison WI before I'll see service between CHI and FL.
Third, several of the larger midwestern cities are spread out, while the cities along the East Coast lines are all in a line. Historical train service would go fan out to St Louis, or KC, or CHI, or Michigan, upon reaching interchange cities such as Louisville or Memphis or Evansville IN, or Cincinnati.
Before one proposes service between the Midwest and FL one has to take these, and other, factors into consideration. I too would like to see service directly between the Midwest & FL, but I don't expect such service to be resurrected any time soon. I think I'll see service return through Madison WI before I'll see service between CHI and FL.
henryj
Conductor
xyzzy - I am curious why the route through Atlanta us considered to be not operationally feasible. Freight traffic can't be the reason as many existing passenger lines are full of freight traffic. I looked at the existing routes via CSX and NS and both seem feasible to me. But then I have no way of knowing the condition of the tracks. CSX shows a busy route through Danville, Evansville, Nashville, Chattanooga to Atlanta. NS has the "rat hole" which they have spent many millions on improving since the "Ponce De Leon/Royal Palm" days which runs from Cincinnati, Lexington, Chattanooga to Atlanta. Recent Trains Magazine articles and maps show these routes to be very busy with freight traffic, which I would think means they are in good shape. Both railroads have Atlanta to Jacksonville lines, either of which could be used. I don't see the old schedules of 23 hours as being feasible again, but I would think a 31/32 hour schedule (Chi to Jacksonville) would be feasible. It would also allow for a late evening departure from Chicago and Jacksonville thus connecting with the Star and the Meteor and serving both Atlanta, Chattanooga in daylight hours. Just curious. Of course we all know Amtrak has no money nor equipment to start up any long distance routes, nor the desire, so this is all just dreaming.
Several good points.....obviously the former Auto Train corporation did extensive research before concluding that Louisville was the place to make their northern terminal.
It was an easy day's drive from a wide radius of midwest population centers, as in the model of their Lorton terminal for the northeast. And it was close enough to the Sanford southern terminal to allow a similar journey length and need for trainsets....
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The Midwest transport market is different enough from the NE market by so much that the midwest railroads had left the Midwest - FL market by the early 1960s, while the East Coast railroads ran first class service up to the advent of Amtrak (in fact, SCL was rumered to be considering staying out of Amtrak, as their trains still made some money on a operating profit basis). While the auto train has been a success along the East Coast, the Louisville venture was such a failure that it contributed to the failure of the company. What I think happened is that many Midwesterners, once they reached Louisville, simply decided to continue driving onwards to their destination. Auto Train Corp lost $ 1.5 million in the first year of the Louisville operation (source: "Amtrak in the Heartland," P. 87 ), and found the effort to be a "financial black hole." (P. 87) Auto Train Corp ended their Louisville operations after only two years, in September 1977.
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G
Guest
Guest
Interesting fact: whether a train runs on the right or the left a two-track main often depends on which side of the road people drive on, because the roads often were combined with the railroad tracks in the early-to-mid-19th Century.
Notelvis
Conductor
railiner - I'm not sure what the regular consist configuration for the Floridian was as I saw it live and in person only a handful of times. I would imagine that it was uncommon for the slumbercoach to run up front and it may have been a case where a late arrival in Miami caused the train to depart northward without being turned.
Perhaps I'll pull out my old Passenger Train Journals which published the standard consist for Amtrak trains during those years.
As far as research by the old AT, I think it was a combination of factors including how close to Chicago they could get to a) be within a half-day drive of the customer base they sought and b) be able to turn the equipment for a same day southbound departure. Given that Louisville was as far north as the 'good track' went, there may have been some decision by default going on.
Tom....... those street lights in New Albany in 1957 were more attractive than what was there 20 years later I think!
Here is a photo taken of the street running the same day the slumbercoach was up front and you can see a baggage car (the one not stainless steel) on the rear of the train.
And how about one of the northbound Floridian arriving in Nashville...... this was on a separate visit (summertime) to the relatives where I rode the Floridian on a same day Louisville-Nashville RT just for fun....... had we had AGR back then it would have been a 'points run'.
Perhaps I'll pull out my old Passenger Train Journals which published the standard consist for Amtrak trains during those years.
As far as research by the old AT, I think it was a combination of factors including how close to Chicago they could get to a) be within a half-day drive of the customer base they sought and b) be able to turn the equipment for a same day southbound departure. Given that Louisville was as far north as the 'good track' went, there may have been some decision by default going on.
Tom....... those street lights in New Albany in 1957 were more attractive than what was there 20 years later I think!
Here is a photo taken of the street running the same day the slumbercoach was up front and you can see a baggage car (the one not stainless steel) on the rear of the train.
And how about one of the northbound Floridian arriving in Nashville...... this was on a separate visit (summertime) to the relatives where I rode the Floridian on a same day Louisville-Nashville RT just for fun....... had we had AGR back then it would have been a 'points run'.
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ALC Rail Writer
Engineer
Considering how many (currently conservative) states that a potential Floridian route would run through I don't think it has any more chance of being resurrected than the missing western LD routes.
More Great Pics and Memories David, Thanks for Posting! :hi: I Liked Slumber Coaches and used to ride in them from WAS-ATL Many Times on the Southern and Amtrak run Crescents! And 2 Dome Cars in the Consist!! :wub: I never saw more than One on the Old MoPac Eagles but of course the Western Trains like the Zephyrs and others out of CHI Sometimes ran with 4 or 5!!(Tom has some Great Pics of this!!
)
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The first challenge is capacity from Chattanooga south. In the entire southeast, only Folkston is comparable to the tonnage that NS and CSX carry into Atlanta from the north. Both NS and CSX are at max capacity and have been for many years; that's why each railroad keeps an overflow route available (for NS, it's Chattanooga-Birmingham-Columbus-Macon; for CSX, it's via Birmingham or the Clinchfield). The second challenge is capacity from Atlanta south. NS has two routes but one of them is also at max capacity (due in part to frequent curves) while the other (ex-CofG) is not in physical shape to handle Amtrak. CSX has some capacity Atlanta-Manchester, but south of Manchester the traffic from Birmingham is added towards Waycross. Both railroads would fight tooth and nail to keep Amtrak off these lines. Pre-Amtrak when Southern and the L&N/SCL operated north-south passenger trains into Atlanta, the amount of freight passing north-south through Atlanta was a small fraction of what it is today.
The third challenge is the station. NS has been outspoken that it won't allow another passenger train into Peachtree Station because passenger trains tie up the mainline there. In addition, Peachtree sits on the Atlanta-Washington mainline, and Florida trains operating in and out of Peachtree would face a lengthy backup move that would irritate NS even more. The proposed new station in Atlanta would not make this problem go away entirely because it would also sit on the Atlanta-Washington mainline.
henryj
Conductor
Thanks
henryj
Conductor
As long as we are just dreaming here...........I see no reason to dream small. Run it through Atlanta. Build the new station. Pay the railroads what they want. Put in new capacity. Order the new equipment.
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Amtrak is waiting on your Check Henry! :lol:
henryj
Conductor
LOL Jim. Even winning the lottery would not bring in enough money to do all that. We can't even get the Eagle into San Antonio smoothly.
rrdude
Engineer
So what? Still some interesting crap......
George Harris
Engineer
After the mid-1950's the major midwest to Florida traffic by rail was the City of Miami / South Wind duo. The every third day Dixie Flagler died somewhere in here. These were all two days one night to Miami. Their schedules, particularly the South Wind and Dixie Flagler were wound pretty tight. In fact, I think that is why the Flagler died first. It's schedule was nearly impossible unless everything went perfectly or there was major bending of the speed limits, possibly both. At the advent of Amtrak, only the City of Miami remained as a through train, and it was in decline due to the decline of the ICG.
The two nights and two days trains were still reliable up until their end, but their declining passenger loadings made that meaningless. In fact, by the early 60's all the through slepers were gone, You had late evening departures from several places, such as Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland that got you into Cincinatti early morning, from which you took the Royal Palm to Jacksonville one day and one night to Jacksonville. Somewhere before 1960, the alternative Southland on the L&N dissapeared. The Southland had an advantage for those destined to West Coast (of Florida) points in that it did not go through Jacksonville. The day trains to Cincinatti and then on overnights to Altanta never did as well, mainly because it was evening again by the time you got to Jacksonville.
Since we can today do no better than the 1950ish trains, with much better roads today and the air service we have, there is little point in reintroducing Midwest to Florida service, much as I would like to see it.
It would probably be cheaper to upgrade track on some route between Chicago to Louisville so that the distance could again be done in about 6 hours and Montgomery to Waycross back to a 59 mph speed limit than it would be to do what it would take to be able to achieve the same run time via Atlanta, considering the amount of second main it would take for reliability and curve revisions or other line changes needed in the light that 6 inches superelevation is no longer practical with the high center of gravity of freight of today. Perhaps the best move would be to forget Louisville and do the upgrades on teh old C&EI-L&N between Chicago adn Nashville. Yes, this line is heavily freight trafficed, but it is fairly straight. We would be talking mainly about a lot of second main and additional or extended sidings, but the distance is shorter than via Louisville, about 450 miles via Evansville versus 490 miles via Louisville.
I often suspected that Amtrak added population of on-line cities to decide that the South Wind Route should be used instead of the City of Miami route. They should have looked at which one had the better ridership which was the City of Miami. However, even that may not have made a difference. I think the main thing that killed it was the detriorating condition of all lines involved. If they had gone the City of Miami route, everything north of Haleyville AL, where it went from trakage routes on the southern to ICG ownership was falling apart. For the South Wind route, that was everything north of Montgomery AL as that was either L&N or Penn Central.
The two nights and two days trains were still reliable up until their end, but their declining passenger loadings made that meaningless. In fact, by the early 60's all the through slepers were gone, You had late evening departures from several places, such as Chicago, Detroit, and Cleveland that got you into Cincinatti early morning, from which you took the Royal Palm to Jacksonville one day and one night to Jacksonville. Somewhere before 1960, the alternative Southland on the L&N dissapeared. The Southland had an advantage for those destined to West Coast (of Florida) points in that it did not go through Jacksonville. The day trains to Cincinatti and then on overnights to Altanta never did as well, mainly because it was evening again by the time you got to Jacksonville.
Since we can today do no better than the 1950ish trains, with much better roads today and the air service we have, there is little point in reintroducing Midwest to Florida service, much as I would like to see it.
It would probably be cheaper to upgrade track on some route between Chicago to Louisville so that the distance could again be done in about 6 hours and Montgomery to Waycross back to a 59 mph speed limit than it would be to do what it would take to be able to achieve the same run time via Atlanta, considering the amount of second main it would take for reliability and curve revisions or other line changes needed in the light that 6 inches superelevation is no longer practical with the high center of gravity of freight of today. Perhaps the best move would be to forget Louisville and do the upgrades on teh old C&EI-L&N between Chicago adn Nashville. Yes, this line is heavily freight trafficed, but it is fairly straight. We would be talking mainly about a lot of second main and additional or extended sidings, but the distance is shorter than via Louisville, about 450 miles via Evansville versus 490 miles via Louisville.
I often suspected that Amtrak added population of on-line cities to decide that the South Wind Route should be used instead of the City of Miami route. They should have looked at which one had the better ridership which was the City of Miami. However, even that may not have made a difference. I think the main thing that killed it was the detriorating condition of all lines involved. If they had gone the City of Miami route, everything north of Haleyville AL, where it went from trakage routes on the southern to ICG ownership was falling apart. For the South Wind route, that was everything north of Montgomery AL as that was either L&N or Penn Central.
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henryj
Conductor
George, you make some good points. The only reason for a Chicago to Florida train through Atlanta is to serve Atlanta as it has no service to the Midwest or Florida. As for Chicago to Florida through traffic, that can go on the Capitol and the Silvers and make just as good time as a 32 hour Chicago to Jacksonville train. And in one of the Amtrak studies they talked about making the Capitol/Star a through train with only a connection to New York.
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