Sunset must go daily

[GP35]

Thats not the big factor. the big factor is that in running coast to coast the Sunset requires 12 hours of padding to give it 30% on time performance! It also had one of the highest average lateness in minutes of any Amtrak run this year, and thats excluding the NOL-ORL section! If your train runs that late, its not a viable run. Its simply a bad run, with boring scenery (a lot of LD EB traffic are people riding it for scenery, keep in mind) and awful OTP. Ridership would improve if it went daily, but its too expensive a run for it to make money on that increase.

Again, the tri-weekly helped to contribute to its lateness. Dispatchers needs to see it daily to be able dispatch it ontime. Also the UP double track

will solve a lot of lateness. In the last 2 weeks, the east bound train was on time all but 1 time. The old Sunset east bound use to be late nearly

all the time. Sunset needs to be daily and I know Amtrak understands this.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I think the combination of poor ontime performance and number of large cities might be an argument for Congress to give Amtrak a huge pile of money to build track along this route that's basically dedicated to passenger service, preferably with a concrete slab base and spaced far enough from any other track that it will be ready for 200 MPH operation when trainsets that fast become available.

If TGV costs are any indication, a new dedicated track from New Orleans to Los Angeles might cost roughly $200 billion. But if you amortize it over some reasonable number of years, it's not all that huge in the grand scheme of the federal budget. And I bet that $200 billion includes electrification, which wouldn't need to be done to initially operate the train with diesels at 110 MPH.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Eh, 200 billion here, 200 billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money.

Seriously, dude, are you crazy? Thats $670 a tax payer, $2000 a household.

 

[Amtrak OBS Gone Freight]

Well, I can see the "Sunset" operating on a daily frequency on its current LAX - NOL route at some point in time maybe with some slight variations of the route. However, I am with GM Lion on the fact that right now at this point in time, the ends just will not justify the means in regard to the actual ridership on that route. It would be smarter to cut that route into several corridors with local traffic operating within them along with the "Sunset" in its current route and a separate long distance service NOL - JAX or ORL, TPA, or MIA. In any event on the Florida side, the S-line needs "actual" daylight rail service with localized corridor services within the entire state (FEC, A-line , S-line, Southeast, and Southwest FL) to enhance the long distance services! Unfortunately, that is a long way off in Florida as well as on the entire "Sunset" route with the exception of maybe in California at some point. But in any event, a whole lotta money is needed!!!

OBS gone freight....

 

[Neil_M]

Eh, 200 billion here, 200 billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money.
Seriously, dude, are you crazy? Thats $670 a tax payer, $2000 a household.

That's ok, just stop giving your military money for an hour or so, granted they wont be able to buy any more deathray space ships to kill Iraqis with, but you might get a decent public transport system out of it! h34r:

 

[BobWeaver]

Eh, 200 billion here, 200 billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money.
Seriously, dude, are you crazy? Thats $670 a tax payer, $2000 a household.

That's ok, just stop giving your military money for an hour or so, granted they wont be able to buy any more deathray space ships to kill Iraqis with, but you might get a decent public transport system out of it! h34r:

:lol:

It is rather disgusting to think that we spend $500-600 billion every year on National Defense, isn't it.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Eh, 200 billion here, 200 billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money.
Seriously, dude, are you crazy? Thats $670 a tax payer, $2000 a household.

Building dedicated TGV quality track along all of Amtrak's current long distance routes probably has a one time cost that's equal to about what we spend on our military every 2-4 years.

If I'm crazy, the part of our government that thinks we can afford the war in Iraq is far more insane.

 

[frj1983]

Eh, 200 billion here, 200 billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money.
Seriously, dude, are you crazy? Thats $670 a tax payer, $2000 a household.

Building dedicated TGV quality track along all of Amtrak's current long distance routes probably has a one time cost that's equal to about what we spend on our military every 2-4 years.

If I'm crazy, the part of our government that thinks we can afford the war in Iraq is far more insane.

I'm not sure there's room for dedicated track in all the areas you are speaking of...have you factored in the amount it would cost to buy all the land needed? And have you factored in court costs with eminent domain takeovers of those who refuse to sell? And I don't believe electrification would work out on those windswept, heavy thunder storm, prone to tornado areas! :blink:

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Eh, 200 billion here, 200 billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money.
Seriously, dude, are you crazy? Thats $670 a tax payer, $2000 a household.

Building dedicated TGV quality track along all of Amtrak's current long distance routes probably has a one time cost that's equal to about what we spend on our military every 2-4 years.

If I'm crazy, the part of our government that thinks we can afford the war in Iraq is far more insane.

I couldn't agree more. Personally, I think the money would be better spent on human welfare. But thats just me.

 

[Palmland]

Eh, 200 billion here, 200 billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money.
Seriously, dude, are you crazy? Thats $670 a tax payer, $2000 a household.

That's ok, just stop giving your military money for an hour or so, granted they wont be able to buy any more deathray space ships to kill Iraqis with, but you might get a decent public transport system out of it! h34r:

:lol:

It is rather disgusting to think that we spend $500-600 billion every year on National Defense, isn't it.

No, our veterans of WWII, Korea, and the Cold War would disagree as do I. Sure we make dumb decisions, like Iraq, but that doesn't mean we should cut spending for military defense. I think the Reagan era military build up in fact made a big difference in the ultimate collapse of the Soviet Union. Let's hope we don't have to have history repeat itself to learn the lesson again of the importance of a strong military.

This forum should stick to Amtrak issues. To properly fund Amtrak we should bite the bullet and pay for it directly through a gas tax or some other pay as you go mechanism directly tied to transportation. It is unfortunate that Amtrak seems to be more and more tied to a political point of view rather than a debate on it's own merits. In the long run, that is not good regardless of whether you are democrat or republican.

 

[Ryan]

No, our veterans of WWII, Korea, and the Cold War would disagree as do I. Sure we make dumb decisions, like Iraq, but that doesn't mean we should cut spending for military defense. I think the Reagan era military build up in fact made a big difference in the ultimate collapse of the Soviet Union. Let's hope we don't have to have history repeat itself to learn the lesson again of the importance of a strong military.
This forum should stick to Amtrak issues. To properly fund Amtrak we should bite the bullet and pay for it directly through a gas tax or some other pay as you go mechanism directly tied to transportation. It is unfortunate that Amtrak seems to be more and more tied to a political point of view rather than a debate on it's own merits. In the long run, that is not good regardless of whether you are democrat or republican.

Amen!
Less than a week after Memorial Day to boot. Of course, most people think that it's just a free day off work/school without thinking about what the day is actually for.

 

[Guest]

"No, our veterans of WWII, Korea, and the Cold War would disagree as do I"

My husband, a veteran of several wars from the "Cold War" on (actually has a certificate showing that he served in the Cold War :huh: ) would disagree with you. We (and other nominal countries) went into Iraq on the basis of the UN WMD inspection refusals. It escalated until it was monikered "Operation Iraqi Freedom" and is now in what is called "nation building". I would like to see these funds that are being used to build that nation put, instead, into rebuilding our own, including our passenger railroad infrastructure. As columnist, Jay Bookman put into an article 4 July 2005 in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution:

"The problem is freedom and democracy are easier to appreciate in theory than to put into practice: they represent learned behaviors and ways of thinking that do not come instinctively to human beings. If they came naturally, democracy and freedom would have taken permanent hold much sooner in human history than 1776."

As far as a "strong military", please be reminded that during WWII 1,600,000 troops served. Over 400,000 perished. In WWI (1917-1918) over 116,000 perished. (Statistics probably courtesy of the American Legion magazine). The waste in this current war is phenomenol and unaffordable and the reasons to remain, muddy. The Government Accounting Office's auditors have indicated that they can't get their hands around the spending, and the lack of controls and responsibility (Washington Post article a few days ago). So, troop-wise, this is not a strong military. It is, however, a wasteful military.

 

[George Harris]

post deleted

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

This forum should stick to Amtrak issues. To properly fund Amtrak we should bite the bullet and pay for it directly through a gas tax or some other pay as you go mechanism directly tied to transportation.

I don't think a gas tax should fund Amtrak, though I do think having automobile gas taxes pay for any Interstate highway costs that are proportional to usage might be a good thing. (If we believe that having barely used four lane Interstate highways in unpopulated areas is a good thing, it might be appropriate to use general funds there; then again, those highways are probably already built and paid for at this point, and they may not wear out as quickly as the oversaturated highways in more densely populated areas.)

The interesting question is, if taxpayers give Amtrak enough high quality track so that the general economics surrounding the NEC apply everywhere, could Amtrak pay for future track maintenance as well as all the other operational expenses and rolling stock maintenance and replacement from future ticket revenues?

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I'm not sure there's room for dedicated track in all the areas you are speaking of...have you factored in the amount it would cost to buy all the land needed? And have you factored in court costs with eminent domain takeovers of those who refuse to sell?

I think most of the western long distance routes' miles are pretty uninhabited.

The TGV wikipedia article indicates that TGV trains use conventional lower speed track going into terminal stations in large cities, and I think doing the same would make sense in the US. I also think that slowing down in the middle of routes to use existing track through intermediate cities would probably be a better design than what the TGV uses, possibly with some high speed track that bypasses intermediate cities completely on express trains.

And I don't believe electrification would work out on those windswept, heavy thunder storm, prone to tornado areas! :blink:

Are there any parts of the country that bury all their electric utility lines within, say, a couple hundred mile radius of some point because of such concerns? I don't remember hearing of any.

 

[Guest]

"What is your point"

It's time to get out and focus on the issues, including crumbling or insufficient infrastructure, that face us here. Neither can I leave some of the comments unchallenged. The original commenter referred to the military as "strong". The troops are at almost (if not the) lowest level they have been since long before 1900 (the Legion's magazine had the exact number). They are volunteer and they are seriously stressed by multiple deployments. I cannot pick up an Army Times without there being an announcement of the latest retention bonus. In case you're not up to speed, the ground troops (Army and Marine) are increasingly coming from small towns with few other employment opportunities.) General Petraus and others have referenced the stretching of the troops to the breaking point. We do not have the manpower, without a draft (speak up here Green Lion- that might be you and many others on here) to fight a multiple-front war which could include Iran or any other nut-tended country. Venezuela (nice oil there,too, I hear) comes to mind. Only you have implied that 4000 killed makes it a wrong war. Similarly, somewhat over 4,000 died in the Revolutionary War. Number of deaths doesn't justify or invalidate a war. I believe what the Bible says, "there will always be wars and rumors of wars" and paraphrasing Ecclesiates, "there is a time for everything".

And yes, I am aware that the Atlanta Journal-Constitution is a Cox newspaper and that the Cox family allegedly contributes to the Democratic (which I am not) party. I don't know the background on the WaPo (other than its stock costs an arm and a leg) but an article there stating facts is not opinion. I read everything under the sun (except USA Today), including the phone book and the back of cereal boxes. If you know anything about the American Legion magazine you will know that it is very traditional and quite likely, conservative.

Jody

 

[Rafi]

This topic is quickly spinning out of control. My recommendation is that the mods close this one down since the same topic regarding the Sunset is being addressed in other threads. Folks, stay on topic, for crying out loud. Unbelievable.

 

[George Harris]

Only you have implied that 4000 killed makes it a wrong war.

That is not what I said, at all. Given that I see no point in a continuation of a subject irrelvant to the topic, particularly one that generates more heat than light, I am deleting my previous post in its entirety.

 

[AlanB]

Well I'm not inclined at the moment to close this thread, but I will ask everyone to get back to the topic at hand, the Sunset Limited.

 

[RTOlson]

Here's an on-topic hypothetical. Let's say Amtrak found enough resources to do one of the following (but not both):

• Run the Sunset daily on its current route.
  
• Restore transcontinental service to Orlando but only 3x per week.
  

What would you do if it could only be one?

I'm personally torn. It would be good to restore service to Florida, but daily service seems like a much better way to go because it provides a reliable schedule for traveler.

I know there's a lot of possible options out there, but if it came down to one solution, what do you think is the best one?

 

[MrEd]

If a vote were taken, I am in favor of Restore transcontinental service to Orlando but only 3x per week.

 

[Ryan]

If a vote were taken, I am in favor of Restore transcontinental service to Orlando but only 3x per week.

++

The poster from P-cola this week really drove home the point that there's a gaping hole in the services available in that area of the country.

 

[GP35]

Here's an on-topic hypothetical. Let's say Amtrak found enough resources to do one of the following (but not both):

• Run the Sunset daily on its current route.
  
• Restore transcontinental service to Orlando but only 3x per week.
  

What would you do if it could only be one?

I'm personally torn. It would be good to restore service to Florida, but daily service seems like a much better way to go because it provides a reliable schedule for traveler.

I know there's a lot of possible options out there, but if it came down to one solution, what do you think is the best one?

Tough question. Coast to coast tri-weekly gives us more political support.

Daily gives us much better operating numbers and takes a away a favorite target for the haters.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Use the sets to make the Cardinal Supeliner, or restore the Floridian. The Sunset needs 9 hours cut off its schedule for it to make money.

 

[AlanB]

The Sunset needs 9 hours cut off its schedule for it to make money.

Cutting 9 hours of running time from the Sunset's schedule isn't going to make it profitable.