Sunset Limited Sold Out

[pldenc44]

I've been checking the westbound Texas Eagle / Sunset Limited from Tucson to Los Angeles for several weeks, and with a few days before departure the weekend trains are almost always sold out (or just a few seats left). How many coach/sleeper cars are on the typical consist? Isn't Amtrak losing potential revenue by consistently having these trains sold out?

It seems like from an efficiency standpoint, it would be inexpensive to attach a couple more coach cars to the train. Freight trains routinely run out there with 50-80 boxcars. Why do passenger trains have so few cars?

If trains are so efficient, then why is it just as expensive for me to ride an enormous train as it is to fill up my car with gas and drive the 500 miles myself? Because you need a lot of freight (passengers) to overcome the fixed costs associated with the train. The more passenger cars you get on there, the less you have to charge each passenger. I've never rode this train, but would love to if it made financial sense. Am I naive to think Amtrak should slash the price in half and stick 4-5 more passenger cars on there?

 

[Trogdor]

If Amtrak had the equipment, Amtrak would stick 4-5 more passenger cars on lots of trains. Amtrak's fleet is stretched pretty thin.

 

[Anderson]

The biggest problems are as follows:

1) Amtrak is short on cars right now. This applies across the board; it's not just the Sunset that's starting to run up on capacity problems. Remember, Amtrak has added close to ten million riders without adding any new equipment in the last decade (and indeed while losing a few cars to wrecks and the like). So there's not much equipment to scrounge. I'd note that this has been a chronic problem over the years.

2) It's also hard for Amtrak to just add one coach to a train and have unstable consists. Mind you, Amtrak tends to pull this off at a few times of the year (there was a famously long City of New Orleans last year that ran fifteen cars long from Chicago to Memphis...longest non-Auto Train bilevel consist I can think of, period), but normally that would cause equipment headaches.

Edit: As to efficiency, train costs are very loaded towards personnel rather than fuel. In Amtrak's budgets, fuel costs are almost always in the 8-10% range of Amtrak's budget versus 35%-ish at the airlines. For example, in the FY12 budget, "Fuel, Power, and Utilities" lists a $369.5 million projected expense out of a total expense of $3,867.6 million. Of course, some of that is depreciation ($671.4m), but the big kahuna in there is Salaries, Wages, and Benefits ($1,889.3m).

So with that in mind, a hypothetical instantaneous doubling of gas prices (for an illustrative example) would raise the cost of running an airline by about 35% but only hit Amtrak by 8-10% (and maybe not even that; a lot of Amtrak's fuel cost is electric between Washington/Harrisburg and Boston).

 

[the_traveler]

Part of the problem is money. Congress only provides Amtrak with just enough to operate, and not much more! And every year, they want to reduce that amount more! (Remember the $-00- budgets for Amtrak?

) Yet they provide BILLIONS OF $$ to subsidize airlines and roads, and only provide $XXX MILLION to Amtrak!

And if you don't think airlines and roads are not subsidized, who do you think pays for ATC, the building of airports, the FAA, the DOT, the building of roads, etc... That bridge you just drove over and the road you just drove on was paid with 90% of the funds coming from taxpayers all over the country!

The other problem is spare equipment! THERE IS NONE! If there was, they would gladly add more cars!

 

[Blue Marble Travel]

Another problem, especially for a long-distance train like the Sunset Limited, is that it may sell out over one portion of its route, but not another, and you haul all that equipment through the entire run.

I don't know the relative loadings between Tucson and LA versus Tucson and east, but if the west-end loadings are higher, it may make more sense to sell the train out then to add a coach, which would have to go at least as far as San Antonio before it could be removed from the train.

 

[Donctor]

How many coach/sleeper cars are on the typical consist?

1 sleeper LAX-SAS-NOL

1 dorm (4? revenue rooms) LAX-SAS-NOL

2 coaches LAX-SAS-NOL

1 sleeper LAX-SAS-CHI (as the Texas Eagle)

1 coach LAX-SAS-CHI (as the Texas Eagle)

Isn't Amtrak losing potential revenue by consistently having these trains sold out?

Probably.

 

[afigg]

Another problem, especially for a long-distance train like the Sunset Limited, is that it may sell out over one portion of its route, but not another, and you haul all that equipment through the entire run.

I don't know the relative loadings between Tucson and LA versus Tucson and east, but if the west-end loadings are higher, it may make more sense to sell the train out then to add a coach, which would have to go at least as far as San Antonio before it could be removed from the train.

With the new SL schedule with better hours in Maricopa and Tucson expected to boost ridership between those cities and LA, Amtrak should be looking at set-out coach cars on the route. If the peak ridership is between Tucson and LA, are there tracks and room in Tucson or El Paso to store and move coach cars? Running the extra coach cars or cars all the way to San Antonio uses more coach cars.

 

[colobok]

Another problem, especially for a long-distance train like the Sunset Limited, is that it may sell out over one portion of its route, but not another, and you haul all that equipment through the entire run.

I don't know the relative loadings between Tucson and LA versus Tucson and east, but if the west-end loadings are higher, it may make more sense to sell the train out then to add a coach, which would have to go at least as far as San Antonio before it could be removed from the train.

With the new SL schedule with better hours in Maricopa and Tucson expected to boost ridership between those cities and LA, Amtrak should be looking at set-out coach cars on the route. If the peak ridership is between Tucson and LA, are there tracks and room in Tucson or El Paso to store and move coach cars? Running the extra coach cars or cars all the way to San Antonio uses more coach cars.

What is the point in new schedule to increase ridership if the train is ALREADY being sold out?

Where will released equipment from new plan go?

Are there any plans to order new Superliners?

 

[benjibear]

You have to think more about gas when driving your own car:

1. The government reimberses 0.55 per mile for business purposes. Depending what you drive, that could be alot or it might not be enough. To dribe round trip 500 miles each way that would cost you about $550. I highly doubt a coach ticket would cost you that much.

2. Even if you are looking at just gas prices, your vehicle probably gets between 15 to 30 miles per gallon depending if you drive an SUV or hybrid. Maybe even less if you drive an old beater pick up. Average price of gas for AZ and CA lets say is $4.00 per gallon. So at those milage rates you end up paying betwenn about $130 to $270 for just gas. This does not include inurance, maintenance (i.e. oil changes, repairs, tires, breaks, etc.), registration, inspections, etc. So how much is it for a round trip ticket? I just found tickets for $85 or $170.

3. On the train you can just sit back and relax. I would much rather do that.

 

[afigg]

What is the point in new schedule to increase ridership if the train is ALREADY being sold out?

Because the SL is not being sold out most of the time. Checking Amsnag for Tucson to LAX for the next month, it is sold out for tomorrow (St. Patrick's Day trip to LA?). But there are coach seats and roomettes available, lower bucket prices on some days, higher bucket prices on others. A major part of the reason for the schedule change is to eliminate inefficient use of Superliner equipment and save on crew costs due to a long layover in New Orleans. See the long thread on the Sunset Limited schedule change.

Where will released equipment from new plan go?

Where ever Amtrak can put it to use. Amtrak has 428 Superliners listed as in active service. Freeing up one train set just gives them some more Superliners in the mix to use where they can generate revenue.

Are there any plans to order new Superliners?

Long term, yes. There is federal and state funding to buy 130 corridor bi-level cars for use in California and the Midwest. The contract for the order is expected to be awarded later this year. Once the production line is up and running on the corridor bi-levels, Amtrak should be able to add orders for bi-level cars in LD Superliner configurations if Amtrak has the funding available. But that is years away.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

Another problem, especially for a long-distance train like the Sunset Limited, is that it may sell out over one portion of its route, but not another, and you haul all that equipment through the entire run.

I don't know the relative loadings between Tucson and LA versus Tucson and east, but if the west-end loadings are higher, it may make more sense to sell the train out then to add a coach, which would have to go at least as far as San Antonio before it could be removed from the train.

With the new SL schedule with better hours in Maricopa and Tucson expected to boost ridership between those cities and LA, Amtrak should be looking at set-out coach cars on the route. If the peak ridership is between Tucson and LA, are there tracks and room in Tucson or El Paso to store and move coach cars? Running the extra coach cars or cars all the way to San Antonio uses more coach cars.

Set-out cars would be a good idea for a daily train. It will not be a good idea to have them for the route as is. With trains coming every few days, you may have an inefficient use of the cars in Tucson much like Amtrak is trying to eliminate in New Orleans.

 

[sportbiker]

Long term, yes. There is federal and state funding to buy 130 corridor bi-level cars for use in California and the Midwest. The contract for the order is expected to be awarded later this year. Once the production line is up and running on the corridor bi-levels, Amtrak should be able to add orders for bi-level cars in LD Superliner configurations if Amtrak has the funding available. But that is years away.

Apparently, Boardman was asked if he was thinking about ordering new Superliners, maybe tacking them onto the states' bi-level order. His response was, "No, we plan to keep refurbishing." Note that he didn't say he'd order new Superliners "when money becomes available" or "after we replace Horizons" or any other sort of keep your hopes up answer. He was quite definite about not ordering new.

 

[AlanB]

Long term, yes. There is federal and state funding to buy 130 corridor bi-level cars for use in California and the Midwest. The contract for the order is expected to be awarded later this year. Once the production line is up and running on the corridor bi-levels, Amtrak should be able to add orders for bi-level cars in LD Superliner configurations if Amtrak has the funding available. But that is years away.

Apparently, Boardman was asked if he was thinking about ordering new Superliners, maybe tacking them onto the states' bi-level order. His response was, "No, we plan to keep refurbishing." Note that he didn't say he'd order new Superliners "when money becomes available" or "after we replace Horizons" or any other sort of keep your hopes up answer. He was quite definite about not ordering new.

Yes, because that's his answer to anything long distance until Congress decides what it wants to do. He made that quite clear a while back, that he has no plans to spend still more money on LD equipment & trains until Congress acts upon the plans he's presented them.

And frankly, I can't really blame him. It's very hard to run a company when you have no idea what your budget will be next year. You can't enter into long term contracts, which would make things cheaper. You don't want to spend money on something that Congress may turn around and decide to cancel. And so on.

If Congress were to get off its duff and act on his long term plans, I've no doubt that Mr. Boardman would be more than happy to start placing orders for new Superliners in the future.

 

[Anderson]

You have to think more about gas when driving your own car:

1. The government reimberses 0.55 per mile for business purposes. Depending what you drive, that could be alot or it might not be enough. To dribe round trip 500 miles each way that would cost you about $550. I highly doubt a coach ticket would cost you that much.

2. Even if you are looking at just gas prices, your vehicle probably gets between 15 to 30 miles per gallon depending if you drive an SUV or hybrid. Maybe even less if you drive an old beater pick up. Average price of gas for AZ and CA lets say is $4.00 per gallon. So at those milage rates you end up paying betwenn about $130 to $270 for just gas. This does not include inurance, maintenance (i.e. oil changes, repairs, tires, breaks, etc.), registration, inspections, etc. So how much is it for a round trip ticket? I just found tickets for $85 or $170.

3. On the train you can just sit back and relax. I would much rather do that.

1) That reimbursment is somewhat generous compared to a lot of cars' mileage, and it also includes wear and tear.

2) I very much concur on preferring to relax. There's a reason that about the only place long distance (i.e. over about a hundred miles) that I still drive with any regularity is Charlottesville, and that's because Amtrak doesn't have any decent service in that direction from my area.

 

[afigg]

Long term, yes. There is federal and state funding to buy 130 corridor bi-level cars for use in California and the Midwest. The contract for the order is expected to be awarded later this year. Once the production line is up and running on the corridor bi-levels, Amtrak should be able to add orders for bi-level cars in LD Superliner configurations if Amtrak has the funding available. But that is years away.

Apparently, Boardman was asked if he was thinking about ordering new Superliners, maybe tacking them onto the states' bi-level order. His response was, "No, we plan to keep refurbishing." Note that he didn't say he'd order new Superliners "when money becomes available" or "after we replace Horizons" or any other sort of keep your hopes up answer. He was quite definite about not ordering new.

Read the V2 Fleet Strategy Plan released in February 2011. That has a incremental replacement plan for the Superliner Is based on the Next Generation bi-level cars built for long distance car type configurations. We will see what the next version of the Fleet Strategy Plan says when it is released this spring. I expect the plans for replacing the Superliner Is will still be there, but postponed until the corridor bi-level order has been placed and Amtrak gets clarity and direction on funding for operating the LD trains and for the Superliner replacements. Which means until after the 2012 elections have played out. Boardman's public statements have to be interpreted in light of the current political situation Amtrak is in.

 

[ATX guest]

Actually I thought I had read that Amtrak had pulled most rooms off the market until they contact all of the passengers affected by the recent Sunset Limited route change. It seems that they are only completely sold out on those days the Sunset Limited go through San Antonio.

 

[afigg]

You have to think more about gas when driving your own car:

1. The government reimberses 0.55 per mile for business purposes. Depending what you drive, that could be alot or it might not be enough. To dribe round trip 500 miles each way that would cost you about $550. I highly doubt a coach ticket would cost you that much.

2. Even if you are looking at just gas prices, your vehicle probably gets between 15 to 30 miles per gallon depending if you drive an SUV or hybrid. Maybe even less if you drive an old beater pick up. Average price of gas for AZ and CA lets say is $4.00 per gallon. So at those milage rates you end up paying betwenn about $130 to $270 for just gas. This does not include inurance, maintenance (i.e. oil changes, repairs, tires, breaks, etc.), registration, inspections, etc. So how much is it for a round trip ticket? I just found tickets for $85 or $170.

1) That reimbursment is somewhat generous compared to a lot of cars' mileage, and it also includes wear and tear.

The $0.55 per mile is a realistic median cost of owning and driving a car. Add up all the costs sometime over the number of miles driven from the time you buy the car and the time you sell. Most people way underestimate how much driving a car around costs on a per mile basis. But that is a topic for another thread and forum.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yes, Amtrak is probably losiing revenue due to insufficient cars. The simple answer is that they don't have enough cars and they don't have the money to buy more. They and us all want more cars, but that's just the situation today where Congress is not aggressive enough to fund trains. You are incorrect that train prices can be lower than airfare because of efficiency. Think about it this way:

Boeing 757: 6 crew, maximum of 5 hours NOL-LAX. 30 man-hours, 170 passengers.

Sunset Limited: about ten crew, minimum of 47 hours NOL-LAX. 470 man-hours, about 320 passengers.

So even though the train is twice as efficient as a 757 fuel-wise, it uses six times as much man-hours. You could argue that pilots earn a lot, but even at Amtrak's current price, they are far from LD profits. Hence no money for more railcars.

Finally, keep in mind that Amtrak has a HEP maximum of 24 cars, so they cannot operate giant 50 car trains like the freights can.

 

[Blue Marble Travel]

Another problem, especially for a long-distance train like the Sunset Limited, is that it may sell out over one portion of its route, but not another, and you haul all that equipment through the entire run.

I don't know the relative loadings between Tucson and LA versus Tucson and east, but if the west-end loadings are higher, it may make more sense to sell the train out then to add a coach, which would have to go at least as far as San Antonio before it could be removed from the train.

With the new SL schedule with better hours in Maricopa and Tucson expected to boost ridership between those cities and LA, Amtrak should be looking at set-out coach cars on the route. If the peak ridership is between Tucson and LA, are there tracks and room in Tucson or El Paso to store and move coach cars? Running the extra coach cars or cars all the way to San Antonio uses more coach cars.

Set-out cars would be a good idea for a daily train. It will not be a good idea to have them for the route as is. With trains coming every few days, you may have an inefficient use of the cars in Tucson much like Amtrak is trying to eliminate in New Orleans.

Adding a switching maneuver / car set-out at a station that does not currently have one impacts reliability and overall scheduled time, and adds stabling costs.

It is not something Amtrak will seek to do.

 

[Blue Marble Travel]

Yes, Amtrak is probably losiing revenue due to insufficient cars. The simple answer is that they don't have enough cars and they don't have the money to buy more. They and us all want more cars, but that's just the situation today where Congress is not aggressive enough to fund trains. You are incorrect that train prices can be lower than airfare because of efficiency. Think about it this way:

Boeing 757: 6 crew, maximum of 5 hours NOL-LAX. 30 man-hours, 170 passengers.

Sunset Limited: about ten crew, minimum of 47 hours NOL-LAX. 470 man-hours, about 320 passengers.

So even though the train is twice as efficient as a 757 fuel-wise, it uses six times as much man-hours. You could argue that pilots earn a lot, but even at Amtrak's current price, they are far from LD profits. Hence no money for more railcars.

Finally, keep in mind that Amtrak has a HEP maximum of 24 cars, so they cannot operate giant 50 car trains like the freights can.

This crew cost calculation may be over-simplified, at least as regard air crew costs. A member of a flight crew will make 8 of these round trips in a month, and will be paid for the equivalent of 160 hours, in rough terms. So the airline is effectively paying 10 hours per one-way trip, not 5.

Moreover, additional on-board service personnel (sleeper and diner, at least) have to be set against sleeper revenues, just as "extra" flight attendants in the front cabin should be offset against the extra fares paid in Business or First, if any. These extra on board service people are not, strictly speaking, operating personnel (though I think at least 3 flight attendants are mandated for a 757).

On the other side of the token: the Sunset gets nowhere close to full occupancy (without looking it up, I'm guessing 200 pax per train mile?), while the plane is probably close to 80%, so 135 pax per mile flown, give or take.

I think that this comparison may be a bit tighter, less weighted to the airline.

Moreover, adding, say, two coaches to 1 / 2, so 160 seats, would add two crew members (a third operating crew, and presumably a coach attendant). That is, genuinely, a lower cost seat production than any airline can achieve.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Yes, Amtrak is probably losiing revenue due to insufficient cars. The simple answer is that they don't have enough cars and they don't have the money to buy more. They and us all want more cars, but that's just the situation today where Congress is not aggressive enough to fund trains. You are incorrect that train prices can be lower than airfare because of efficiency. Think about it this way:

Boeing 757: 6 crew, maximum of 5 hours NOL-LAX. 30 man-hours, 170 passengers.

Sunset Limited: about ten crew, minimum of 47 hours NOL-LAX. 470 man-hours, about 320 passengers.

So even though the train is twice as efficient as a 757 fuel-wise, it uses six times as much man-hours. You could argue that pilots earn a lot, but even at Amtrak's current price, they are far from LD profits. Hence no money for more railcars.

Finally, keep in mind that Amtrak has a HEP maximum of 24 cars, so they cannot operate giant 50 car trains like the freights can.

This crew cost calculation may be over-simplified, at least as regard air crew costs. A member of a flight crew will make 8 of these round trips in a month, and will be paid for the equivalent of 160 hours, in rough terms. So the airline is effectively paying 10 hours per one-way trip, not 5.

Moreover, additional on-board service personnel (sleeper and diner, at least) have to be set against sleeper revenues, just as "extra" flight attendants in the front cabin should be offset against the extra fares paid in Business or First, if any. These extra on board service people are not, strictly speaking, operating personnel (though I think at least 3 flight attendants are mandated for a 757).

On the other side of the token: the Sunset gets nowhere close to full occupancy (without looking it up, I'm guessing 200 pax per train mile?), while the plane is probably close to 80%, so 135 pax per mile flown, give or take.

I think that this comparison may be a bit tighter, less weighted to the airline.

Moreover, adding, say, two coaches to 1 / 2, so 160 seats, would add two crew members (a third operating crew, and presumably a coach attendant). That is, genuinely, a lower cost seat production than any airline can achieve.

Changing to match your info, I find that there will be 60 man-hours for the plane. SL Coach seats are cheaper than airliner Economy and Roomette fares, though more expensive than Economy, are still cheaper than airline First. Only a Bedroom can match First fares. In the end, the low ridership and high crew costs of the SL probably cause the very low farebox recovery.

 

[Trogdor]

In the end, the low ridership and high crew costs of the SL probably cause the very low farebox recovery.

You may have stumbled onto the greatest discovery since the secret of fire.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

The SL is sold out all the time in Sleepers. Don't know about coaches. Guess it is just car shortages and poor frequency, not poor demand.

 

[pldenc44]

You have to think more about gas when driving your own car:

1. The government reimberses 0.55 per mile for business purposes. Depending what you drive, that could be alot or it might not be enough. To dribe round trip 500 miles each way that would cost you about $550. I highly doubt a coach ticket would cost you that much.

2. Even if you are looking at just gas prices, your vehicle probably gets between 15 to 30 miles per gallon depending if you drive an SUV or hybrid. Maybe even less if you drive an old beater pick up. Average price of gas for AZ and CA lets say is $4.00 per gallon. So at those milage rates you end up paying betwenn about $130 to $270 for just gas. This does not include inurance, maintenance (i.e. oil changes, repairs, tires, breaks, etc.), registration, inspections, etc. So how much is it for a round trip ticket? I just found tickets for $85 or $170.

1) That reimbursment is somewhat generous compared to a lot of cars' mileage, and it also includes wear and tear.

The $0.55 per mile is a realistic median cost of owning and driving a car. Add up all the costs sometime over the number of miles driven from the time you buy the car and the time you sell. Most people way underestimate how much driving a car around costs on a per mile basis. But that is a topic for another thread and forum.

Your logic makes perfect sense if I didn't have to own a car. Unfortunately, 98% of us (including me) can't survive without a car. No matter how great Amtrak service is, I will still have to pay for insurance and depreciation and own a car.

For my family of 3 to get from Tucson to LA, its $46 * 3 = 138 (cheapest fare possible). On the other hand, I can fit my whole family in my Malibu, pay $65 for fuel, and be there in six hours instead of ten (and have a car to get around once I arrive). I would prefer to take the train rather than drive... but I refuse to pay double. I'll never take the train unless it saves my family money. How can Amtrak achieve this?

 

[johnny.menhennet]

You have to think more about gas when driving your own car:

1. The government reimberses 0.55 per mile for business purposes. Depending what you drive, that could be alot or it might not be enough. To dribe round trip 500 miles each way that would cost you about $550. I highly doubt a coach ticket would cost you that much.

2. Even if you are looking at just gas prices, your vehicle probably gets between 15 to 30 miles per gallon depending if you drive an SUV or hybrid. Maybe even less if you drive an old beater pick up. Average price of gas for AZ and CA lets say is $4.00 per gallon. So at those milage rates you end up paying betwenn about $130 to $270 for just gas. This does not include inurance, maintenance (i.e. oil changes, repairs, tires, breaks, etc.), registration, inspections, etc. So how much is it for a round trip ticket? I just found tickets for $85 or $170.

1) That reimbursment is somewhat generous compared to a lot of cars' mileage, and it also includes wear and tear.

The $0.55 per mile is a realistic median cost of owning and driving a car. Add up all the costs sometime over the number of miles driven from the time you buy the car and the time you sell. Most people way underestimate how much driving a car around costs on a per mile basis. But that is a topic for another thread and forum.

Your logic makes perfect sense if I didn't have to own a car. Unfortunately, 98% of us (including me) can't survive without a car. No matter how great Amtrak service is, I will still have to pay for insurance and depreciation and own a car.

For my family of 3 to get from Tucson to LA, its $46 * 3 = 138 (cheapest fare possible). On the other hand, I can fit my whole family in my Malibu, pay $65 for fuel, and be there in six hours instead of ten (and have a car to get around once I arrive). I would prefer to take the train rather than drive... but I refuse to pay double. I'll never take the train unless it saves my family money. How can Amtrak achieve this?

Travelling coach in Amtrak as a one-person group (if that makes sense) is one of the only times that it will make sense economically to take the train over the car. If you have multiple people, there is no free ride for the other members, much like there is in a car, where you pay more or less for one ride, and try to fit people in. However, if you are looking for the slightly more relaxing and luxurious trip in a sleeper, then a family of three could fit into a standard bedroom (I think!) and get meals and flat beds and the peace of mind knowing that you're not driving. Sleepers are the one place on Amtrak where # of travelers does not matter nearly as much, because you only have to pay the lowest bucket coach fare for additional pax.