The maximum length of holding the train really should depend on what the "pad" was between scheduled arrival at the other end and the scheduled departure of the connecting train(s) there, as well as the average or expected delays anticipated on the trip TO that connection point. If there was a 5 hours time pad between normal arrival at the connection point and departure of the connecting train(s), and the OTP of the train was realistically expected to be good, then they could reasonably wait more than an hour. But all those factors should be weighed carefully before deciding. Obviously, whatever wait time they added would inconvenience passengers who had destinations before the end point of that train, but as long as the connection was made AT the end point, the wait would not inconvenience the connecting passengers at the end point. If the connecting train at the far end was running several hours late, that would allow waiting even a longer time. However, if we use the specific example of a NOL-JAX train waiting for the late arrival of Sunset eastbound into NOL, any late departure of the train heading for JAX would inconvenience passengers into Mobile, Pensacola, Tallahassee, etc., even if the passengers connecting to a Silver Service train successfully made their connections. All of these sorts of decisions involve trade-offs. SOMEBODY is always going to be unhappy with the result.
Sunset East of New Orleans: Kiss of Death?
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Guest_Ben_*
Guest
How is the track condition/congestion between New Orleans and Jacksonville? Has there been any improvements/additional sidings added in that area since Katrina or is it still pretty clogged?
George Harris
Engineer
A few comments:
So far as I know, there have been no capacity or speed improvements on the CSX line New Orleans - Flomaton - Jacksonville. They have worse problems in other places that they are spending their money on. This means still lots of congestion between New Orleans - Mobile - Flomaton, still no signals and 59 mph maximum speed limit Flomaton to Tallahassee.
Pre Amtrak, most railroads had specific hold times for connections for each train listed in the employee timetables. They would vary from 15 minutes to "indefinitely"
The New Orleans to Jacksonville 'good' overnight train operated by the L&N - SAL was the Gulf Wind. It was one of the last trains in the country to carry a round end observation. It operated up to Amtrak day. It was only a shadow of its former self in the last couple of years, but I think it carried a sleeper right up to the end. Nothing wrong with this as a train name for an independent Gulf Coast train. In fact, the layover time in New Orleans in the old schedule was so long they ought to have given the two parts separate names from the beginning, even with the equipment running through.
So far as I know, there have been no capacity or speed improvements on the CSX line New Orleans - Flomaton - Jacksonville. They have worse problems in other places that they are spending their money on. This means still lots of congestion between New Orleans - Mobile - Flomaton, still no signals and 59 mph maximum speed limit Flomaton to Tallahassee.
Pre Amtrak, most railroads had specific hold times for connections for each train listed in the employee timetables. They would vary from 15 minutes to "indefinitely"
The New Orleans to Jacksonville 'good' overnight train operated by the L&N - SAL was the Gulf Wind. It was one of the last trains in the country to carry a round end observation. It operated up to Amtrak day. It was only a shadow of its former self in the last couple of years, but I think it carried a sleeper right up to the end. Nothing wrong with this as a train name for an independent Gulf Coast train. In fact, the layover time in New Orleans in the old schedule was so long they ought to have given the two parts separate names from the beginning, even with the equipment running through.
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D
Daniel
Guest
What are the chances there'll be signals installed on the unsignalled portion between Tallahassee and Flomaton anytime soon? How much would it cost?
George Harris
Engineer
Unless the answer comes from CSX, anything else would be a wild guess, and nothing more. Systemwide, my opinion that they have more pressing needs elsewhere.
Any cost numbers would equally be guesswork. It would be in the range of quite a few millions. It would certainly not be done by CSX for the purpose of benefitting Amtrak.
I know the state of North Carolina paid for adding signals to the line between Greensboro and Raleigh, but first, the distance was only about 75 miles - Raleigh to Cary already had signals - and the state owns the railroad and has since 1850, so there is no equivalence.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
CSX would be much better served by taking the trouble to keep their track in a condition along the lines of "barely acceptable", which would be a massive improvement.
harl222000
Train Attendant
Sunset Marketing and Revitalization Team
http://groups.google.com/group/sunset-un-limited?hl=en
http://www.trainweb.org/sunsetfriends/
harl222000
Train Attendant
Amtrak Proposes Intercity Rail Ideas For Florida
Tampa Bay Online
It would seem that Amtrak would fulfil it's obligation to Florida and the National Passenger Railroad Network first, since Florida has contributed largely to an transcontinental service. However, you could consider Pensacola, Crestview, Chiplep, Tallahassee, Madison, Lake City and Jacksonville an Intercity Route since Amtrak loves to reinvent the wheel.
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R
Richard Friedman
Guest
The equipment that used to run from New Orleans to Jacksonville just sits in New Orleans instead of running east. There is a group forming called "Sunset Marketing and Revitalization Team" working to get the nation's ONLY transcontinental train transcontinental again. Visit the SMART website at link
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had8ley
Engineer
I wish them only the best. It is my own personal desire to see this service once again but I wouldn't bet a rubbery SDS chicken fried steak that it will ever come to light. It's very obvious that Amtrak neither wants to re-institute service nor does the CSXT want it even though Amtrak dollars paid for many improvements between New Orleans and Jacksonville before the CSX would let them turn a wheel on their railroad. Bustitution never was an alternate after Katrina; kinda parallels the "savings" from the annulment of the Coast Starlight.
J
JohnF
Guest
We have a NARP sponsored group trying to address the SSL issues. Anyone can join if you want to help us out. http://groups.google.com/group/sunset-un-limited
We have noticed a change in attitude just since our first meeting in January. Some interesting facts on the SSL operations. When the #2 arrives in NO the equipment and crews lay over for three days before returning west. This huge waste on the part of Amtrak is because they never altered the schedule and this equipment is supposed to be going on the Orlando. Instead it just rots there in NO doing nothing. Amtrak also lays over a set in LA because they can't guarantee a quick turnaround there due to the UP's poor time keeping. So they have dedicated four sets of equipment to this 3 times a week service. It only takes 5 sets to run it daily. We are now thinking that may be the carrot Amtrak dangles before us to mediate discontinuing service to Florida. Doing that divides the opposition and it dove tails nicely with the Eagle groups aims and helps their train. As to the schedule, just prior the Katrina #2 left NO at 6PM and arrived in Orlando at 4:15PM the next day. #1 left Orlando at 1:45PM and arrived in NO 9:20AM the next day. All this talk about 'day' trains along the Gulf Coast is just bogus. No train can cover the 614 miles from NO to JAX in one day, the track is just too slow. It's a 17 hour trip. What Amtrak really wants to do is make the NO to JAX corridor state supported trains such as Baton/Rouge/Mobile or JAX to Tallahassee. Something like that. You would not be able to go the distance in one day.
JohnF
We have noticed a change in attitude just since our first meeting in January. Some interesting facts on the SSL operations. When the #2 arrives in NO the equipment and crews lay over for three days before returning west. This huge waste on the part of Amtrak is because they never altered the schedule and this equipment is supposed to be going on the Orlando. Instead it just rots there in NO doing nothing. Amtrak also lays over a set in LA because they can't guarantee a quick turnaround there due to the UP's poor time keeping. So they have dedicated four sets of equipment to this 3 times a week service. It only takes 5 sets to run it daily. We are now thinking that may be the carrot Amtrak dangles before us to mediate discontinuing service to Florida. Doing that divides the opposition and it dove tails nicely with the Eagle groups aims and helps their train. As to the schedule, just prior the Katrina #2 left NO at 6PM and arrived in Orlando at 4:15PM the next day. #1 left Orlando at 1:45PM and arrived in NO 9:20AM the next day. All this talk about 'day' trains along the Gulf Coast is just bogus. No train can cover the 614 miles from NO to JAX in one day, the track is just too slow. It's a 17 hour trip. What Amtrak really wants to do is make the NO to JAX corridor state supported trains such as Baton/Rouge/Mobile or JAX to Tallahassee. Something like that. You would not be able to go the distance in one day.
JohnF
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
If the train is running a day or two late, you need a trainset to stand in for it on the return journey. Thats the comment about not having equipment.
I agree Amtrak should reinstate service, but please don't come up with some naive perspective that Amtrak has the equipment to do this just sitting around rusting. Amtrak has very real capacity issues. A trainset needs to be cleaned and serviced before being sent out. Running the whole thing to Orlando would genuinely require another pair of trainsets, I'd think.
I agree Amtrak should reinstate service, but please don't come up with some naive perspective that Amtrak has the equipment to do this just sitting around rusting. Amtrak has very real capacity issues. A trainset needs to be cleaned and serviced before being sent out. Running the whole thing to Orlando would genuinely require another pair of trainsets, I'd think.
harl222000
Train Attendant
Naive perspective?
Last month several cars were involved in a grade crossing incident in Houston on the Sunset. They were brought back to NOL and presently sit waiting for an opening at Beech Grove. Beech Grove is backlogged. Wondering if it has anything to do with the conversion of so many diner/lounge cars.
I'm hoping they are able to get the parlor cars out for the Starlight before [is it ?] May 10th
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
Cars that are awaiting repairs can not fairly be considered part of Amtraks current capacity.
We have physically documented the train sets as they arrive and depart. They not only sit for three days, but on Sunday and Tuesday evenings there are two sets sitting there until the next days departure. This occurs because the trains are still running on the pre Katrina schedule which assumes they will head east to Orlando for their turnaound. When you talk to an Amtrak rep they try and cover this up with the usual platitudes because it is embarrassing to them. They all know this is occurring. So to resume service to Florida requires NO ADDITIONAL EQUIPMENT. All they have to do is continue east as they did before Katrina. The equipment then has an overnight layover in Orlando for servicing before returning the next day. In addition the schedule allows two to three hours in New Orleans both directions for crew changes, restocking and such. Amtrak excuses for not resuming service to Florida are just bogus and have no basis in fact. Before Katrina, Orlando was a huge attraction for the train. Before Katrina the NO to Orland segment accounted for 28% of the route miles, but 39% of the ridership and 41% of the revenue(stats from NARP).
jf
Rafi
Conductor
John,
AFAIK, you're correct in what you point out with regard to equipment availability. Unfortunately, I think we all know that the sad fact is that we won't see service on that corridor (especially as a reinstated Sunset Limited as opposed to a "corridor" train or trains) unless there is:
1) Some sort of lawsuit
2) A mandate from Congress
or
3) The states involved pony up subsidies
That just seems to be the sad fact here. Of course, I may be mistaken.
Rafi
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Sadly, you are probably correct. But that is one reason to make this more widely known, particularly to Mayors and local representatives long the way. It's the cities and states affected that should be initiating any action on this and it is apparent that they really are not aware of the facts. If they knew how poorly this thing was run they might get more involved.
Green Maned Lion
Engineer
I have had that particular set of statistical nonsense thrown at me before. There are three kinds of lies. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. They have little relationship to each other.
Well those particular stats weren't thrown at you; in fact they were presented rather nicely. Additionally since you don't have any power at Amtrak, it really is inconsequential that you don't like statistics or trust them very much. It only matters that someone at Amtrak with power believes them, or some politician believes them, or a bunch of voters in the states affected by the truncated service believe them and in turn put pressure on some politicians to fix things.
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NARP throws out numbers like that all the time and provides no basis for the analysis. Zero. Nada. What are the source statistics for the claim? I did a quick analysis using NARP's own station-by-station ridership data and came up with the opposite conclusion: that the eastern end of the Sunset route underperformed the route as a whole by a substantial margin. That is my understanding of Amtrak's internal analysis as well.
I can't speak for where NARP got its numbers from, nor can I confirm that NARP's numbers are accurate. But it would appear just from Amtrak's own numbers that the loss of the eastern portion of the route is hurting things. Again I can't say if all of the losses are due solely to the loss of the eastern part, or other factors like OTP, but nonetheless the Sunset has suffered major losses since Katrina. Additionally I'll grant that part of the loss was due to no train running at all for a while, then running only to Texas, before finally returning to New Orleans.
From Amtrak's own numbers:
Ridership:
2004 - 96,426
2005 - 81,348 loss 15,078
2006 - 51,860 loss 29,488
Total lost ridership 44,566, almost half.
Revenue:
2004 - $11,108,532
2005 - $ 9,375,374 loss $1,733,158
2006 - $ 5,282,241 loss $4,093,133
Total lost revenue $5,826,291 more than half.
I will also allow that fiscal 2007 saw a slight to moderate increase in the numbers, it was the first full year of running LAX-NOL, but we are no where near back to where we were when we had a full length Sunset. So it is obvious that not having the eastern portion is hurting this train's numbers. Again what we don't know is what other factors may be playing into those numbers, nor just how much the loss of NOL - ORL is affecting those numbers.
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