St. Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago (TCMC) second daily service

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jis said:
Looks like TCMC is now available for booking in the reservation system starting 22 May 2024.

https://cdn2.imagearchive.com/amtraktrains/internal_data/attachments/34/34009-ea4da3bdf27d6ded594e86bc2d1db19c.data?response-expires=Wed, 08 May 2024 13:22:13 GMT&response-content-type=image/png&X-Amz-Content-Sha256=UNSIGNED-PAYLOAD&X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=I3UPHPWOPY63ZMOGLZFM/20240501/nyc3/s3/aws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20240501T132213Z&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Expires=604800&X-Amz-Signature=4539ae55365f642b8f71dcbc728ab7ce7bbbdcabfaee4487a7bfc394710ef17e

Well, actually inaugural is on 21st May.
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Hey, WisARP has more knowledge on Borealis! https://w.p.me/pbWVI-LW
Rail supporters in Wisconsin, Minnesota and Illinois can learn how to get involved. WisARP has been proposing this service for over eight years and there's so much more to do!
 
There's no rumor that they scheduled an 8th frequency ghost train on CP to deadhead, which would also be very expensive, Chicago can barely put out service now (no 3rd Hiawatha train set), and Siemens equipment can't go north of the Milwaukee monolith. Somebody on Trainorders said no Cabbage-40 on the Borealis.

So I am going with my original theory way above - they are going to run VIA style "J" trains, even if they forgot and scheduled only 5 minutes in Milwaukee.
 
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OmahaRoad said:
This is correct! I apologize if one of my posts late yesterday on this topic contradicted itself--I was tired and overexcited. The Great River Rail Commission (MN coordinating partner--long story) and others have made it very clear that there will be 4 coaches and one 'cafe' (club/dinette as Jis said) to begin with.

"Amtrak Borealis trains will consist of four Horizon class passenger cars with one cafe car and a locomotive. The Great River Rail Commission’s website will soon feature more information about the service, including amenities, ticket prices, destinations and more. " Source link here.
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It sounds like this means they're going to have to subtract or add coaches in Milwaukee to accommodate all the people they'll have to carry, or they'll have to use the reservation system to limit the number of people the trains carry, or just tow an existing Hiawatha train set behind it between Chicago and Milwaukee. It shouldn't take that long to combine the two.
 
moselman66 said:
Current Hiawatha schedule -- two train sets.

View attachment 36610

We know that Borealis requires two train sets for a total four -- two Hiawatha + two Borealis.

The challenge with Borealis replacing 1 of 7 Hiawatha each way is that you end up with a Hiawatha train set in the wrong city.
Here's how things look if the Borealis trains are dedicated Borealis-only equipment (red bold font):

View attachment 36611

There's no equipment in Milwaukee to do the 1:05pm southbound. The green Hiawatha trainset is sitting idle in Chicago but you need it in Milwaukee. Two ways to solve things in this situation:

--Deadhead the green Hiawatha trainset behind the Borealis both ways. Essentially the green trainset would do what it does today prior to Borealis. It would be nice if the green trainset could instead run as an additional revenue frequency but we're not yet at the point where more CHI-MKE-CHI trains are allowed.

--Have a third Hiawatha trainset sit in MIlwaukee which only covers the two trips in white. Painfully wasteful.

I'd be pretty surprised (and a little sickened!) if a third Hiawatha set was acquired just to do a single existing round trip, so in this scenario I can't come up with any reasonable option but the Hiawatha set being pulled along behind Borealis.

----------------

Would it help if the Borealis trainsets were used on some additional Hiawatha runs? Not really -- you still have the same fundemental issue of no train in Milwaukee to run the 1:05pm southbound / 3:15pm northbound. By using Borealis on other Hiawatha runs the green Hiawatha set #2 could be mostly replaced by Borealis, only needed for that mid-day gap and idle the rest of the day, four trainsets total. But in this scenario there's an issue where the Borealis trainset overnights in Milwaukee but needs to originate Chicago the next morning. And again, you may think "but couldn't that mostly idle green Hiawatha set be used so Borealis doesn't overnight the "wrong" city?" But once again we're in the position where the idle green Hiawatha set isn't where you need it to be to fill in and let the Borealis train set terminate in Chicago each night.

View attachment 36613

In theory if the only difference for the Borealis was a cafe car then it would not matter which train sets spent the night where. The cafe car would be ditched in Chicago in the evening before the train headed back to MKE, and in the morning it would be added to whicever train set was positioned for the 11:05am northbound for the trip back to MSP. But in that scenario you'd truly be rotating all the Hiawahta equipment so that means somtimes Venture coaches to MSP plus potential equiment issue with Hiawatha being push-pull and Boralis not. And again that's only if all equipment was equal, no variation, no state ownership or pool participation, so that makes this idea unrealisitc as well.

-------

So across all these possible scenarios by far the most likely seems that a Hiawatha set will be repositioned behind the Borealis each direction, essentially mimicking the revenue trips it currently runs but Borealis is replacing. That two dedicated Borealis train sets (as expected) and the two existing Hiawatha sets cover the six remaining round trips.
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In your last schedule table, if you alter the 6:10 AM trip from Chicago to be the green Hiawatha set rather than the blue Borealis set, that would solve most of the issues. There would then be two Hiawatha sets alternating each night between Chicago and Milwaukee and two Borealis sets alternating each night between St. Paul and Milwaukee. That would allow 5/6 daily Hiawatha trips to be served by Hiawatha captive equipment with only the 8:05 AM from Milwaukee and 8:05 PM from Chicago served by the Borealis sets.
 
I have a real worry that Amtrak will sell out the trains MKE and south eliminating passengers north of MKE. If that happens then loads would be less and cause more state funds needed. The only way to prevent that IMO is to connect the Hiawatha train set to the Borealis set when loads are over booked. Drop at MKE and add the other set at MKE for southbound. Now how the two sets need to be connected not sure. If HEP can be separate for 2 sets the connections can be separated and connected fairly quickly. Other wise not so quick.
 
brianpmcdonnell17 said:
In your last schedule table, if you alter the 6:10 AM trip from Chicago to be the green Hiawatha set rather than the blue Borealis set, that would solve most of the issues. There would then be two Hiawatha sets alternating each night between Chicago and Milwaukee and two Borealis sets alternating each night between St. Paul and Milwaukee. That would allow 5/6 daily Hiawatha trips to be served by Hiawatha captive equipment with only the 8:05 AM from Milwaukee and 8:05 PM from Chicago served by the Borealis sets.
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That seems to work! Had not thought about having the Borealis equipment overnight in MIlwaukee -- that's what I get for trying to solve this puzzle while at work and not focusing more on it. :)

Each night a Hiawatha set terms in Chicago and Milwaukee has both a Hiawatha and a Boreais, and the next morning that's where they originate without any need for deadheading. When Borealis equipment needs work which can't be done overnight in MKE or MSP the equipment swaps out when it's next in Chicago.

Even days of the week:
1714760281302.png
Odd days of the week:
1714760568258.png
 
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Steve4031 said:
IMHO, the fares posted here encourage people to use the Empire Builder. A roomette is not that much more than BC. At those price points, I would take a roomette over BC every time. The Empire Builder coach seats should be sold as BC seats between Chicago and Milwaukee. Those seats are way better than any of the seats on the Borealis.
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Hey Steve,

Completely agree regarding the EB equipment compared to BC. There were times when the Hiawatha got delayed/canceled and those passengers were routed on the Builder.

One of the conductors laughed when he told me that some of those passengers couldn't believe what they had been missing.

However, as someone still working, I am looking forward to Borealis. The timetable just works better. I can leave later and arrive home sooner on 1333/1340.

Hope to see you soon....Next time we go to Lou Mitchell's I'm buying.
 
Amtrak25 said:
When the Hoosier State existed, it piggybacked onto the Cardinal one day a week in one or both direction, otherwise it made no sense either. I forgot how and when.
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Seems to me this is just a one time deadhead.

If there are chronic and consistent sell-outs between Chicago and Milwaukee, maybe it's time to really fly between them and get Metra to extend all the way.
 
For passengers MSP and south not checking baggage if Builder #8 is more than 4 hours late the Borealis will supply a few connections to the east on 30, 48. &59.
Again for passengers without baggage connections to stations up to MSP may get to those stations earlier from 30, 48, 51
 
As to concerns about Hiawatha (CHI-MKE) passengers displacing Borealis (beyond MKE) passengers or vice versa, WisDOT & IDOT have planned for some time now to expand the Hiawatha to 10 round-trips.

Money was appropriated for projects to increase capacity in Illinois but local NIMBYs torpedoed those projects. My understanding is (1) capacity improvements in Wisconsin (well beyond the reach of the Glenview grumps) will still make it possible, and (2) a conscious decision was made to **not** wait for those projects' completion to begin the second St. Paul service.
 
John Bredin said:
As to concerns about Hiawatha (CHI-MKE) passengers displacing Borealis (beyond MKE) passengers or vice versa, WisDOT & IDOT have planned for some time now to expand the Hiawatha to 10 round-trips.

Money was appropriated for projects to increase capacity in Illinois but local NIMBYs torpedoed those projects. My understanding is (1) capacity improvements in Wisconsin (well beyond the reach of the Glenview grumps) will still make it possible, and (2) a conscious decision was made to **not** wait for those projects' completion to begin the second St. Paul service.
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You are correct on all counts. Things are just starting for Borealis Hiawatha Service in Wisconsin. There is much more to do but this single designated "Core Express" service route across Wisconsin and the Midwest will translate into Corridor Identification (CI) Program routes already funded in Phase 1 by the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) extending west through Madison, Eau Claire and LaCrosse, additional Milwaukee to Chicago Hiawatha Service and another service north from Milwaukee to the Fox River Valley Cities and Green Bay.
 
While I do prefer riding Superliner equipment given the opportunity, the schedule for the new train is really convenient for going to MSP. I went up for a concert at the First Ave in February and rolling into town at almost 11pm kind of sucks, especially if you need to get to Minneapolis on the light rail. I think if the EB is a little late you risk missing the last light rail run, on top of the fact that even when on time you won't get to a hotel in Minneapolis until about midnight. And I had to go up the night before the show, this new schedule would have allowed me to show up the day of the show and spend one night in MSP instead of two.

And then I wouldn't have had to get up so early to catch the train back the next morning. Could have slept in longer after the late night out.
 
Getting the Hiawatha up to 10 trips has been a goal for several years -- if I recall correctly prior to the pandemic the intention was an 8th trip by 2024 and 9 & 10 by 2026. But the big stumbling block was a few years back when Glenview & Lake Forest (IL) successfully stymied the additional freight sidings CP required for expansion. However back in 2022 CP agreed to additional trains wtihout that specific expansion as part of their "please let us become CPKC" campaign. It's the same goodwill which is allowing Borealis to operate *prior* to the completion of agreed-upon improvements around La Crosse and Winona, and also a pledge of cooperation between New Orleans and Baton Rouge.

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/amtrak/news/CP-agrees-to-back-Amtrak-expansion-plans--67843

Beyond the former-dealbreaker in Glenview/Lake Forest there are two other improvments in the works.

(1) Milwaukee Airport Second Platform project.
This has been described as a requirement before additional Hiawatha trips can start. Construction is well underway and is planned for completion early next summer.

(2) Muskego Yard Fright Rail Bypass
This is another project at one time described as "necessary" for Hiawatha expansion, a line allowing most frieghts which currently pass through the Intermodal Station to bypass it. This one, unfortunately, is still looking for funding and was not selected in a round of projects a few months back.

For what it's worth it's less clear to me that Hiawatha is absolutely capped at 7 until Muskego Yard is completed. In videos of various meetings and presentations posted online in the past 12-18 months the impression I get is that the Airport Station Platform project is a must but that there might be allowance for limited expansion prior to completion of the Muskego Yard project. I could be mistaken, and hopefully CPCK's cooperation in general was not purely lip service. But I feel like we could see an 8th trip allowed in later 2025 or 2026.
 
I also still think they'll do it Hoosier State-Cardinal and VIA "J" train style, because if you just run a four-coach Borealis set on that Hiawatha rotation, you'll chase away a lot of Chicago-Milwaukee riders, not to mention ending up with a Hiawatha equipment rotation problem.
 
The improvement schedule is important IMO. It should be applied to other route proposals as well. Yes, schedules will be slower but agreement which CP made is that reductions will be made as each improvement is made. That is what should have been done for the NOL - Mobile train although the lay over station problem at Mobile has been a showstopper. Any route does have to make acceptable provisions for any layover station.
 
Harmon Shay said:
I also still think they'll do it Hoosier State-Cardinal and VIA "J" train style, because if you just run a four-coach Borealis set on that Hiawatha rotation, you'll chase away a lot of Chicago-Milwaukee riders, not to mention ending up with a Hiawatha equipment rotation problem.
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Moselman came up with something that could work on paper, but it means the southbound Borealis would have just 51 minutes in Chicago to be the next northbound Hiawatha, and assumes the Borealis sets will be topped and tailed with a Cabbage or a P42. 51 minutes may be the situation now with Hiawathas, but risky for a train coming from St Paul with greater odds of being late.
 
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In my not so humble opinion - - -
Keep it simple - there is no reason to operate the Borealis trains with a push pull split and separate cars at
Milwaukee - nothing like screwing with the basic planned train and achieving more delays and other
mechanical snafu meshing cars and locomotives* (I believe that the Borealis only needs 1 locomotive).
At the destination - there is no need for a hasty turn around WYEing of the train consist - it is parked for
the next day service.
 
WWW said:
In my not so humble opinion - - -
Keep it simple - there is no reason to operate the Borealis trains with a push pull split and separate cars at
Milwaukee - nothing like screwing with the basic planned train and achieving more delays and other
mechanical snafu meshing cars and locomotives* (I believe that the Borealis only needs 1 locomotive).
At the destination - there is no need for a hasty turn around WYEing of the train consist - it is parked for
the next day service.
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Suffice it to say irrespective of whatever creative Rube Goldberg schemes we come up with here, Amtrak will do what it has worked out and we will know what it is when it happens. I think it is safe to say that the Borealis consist will have a single locomotive , a P42 at its front and 5 cars and they will figure out how to handle the consist rotations that works.
 
jis said:
Suffice it to say irrespective of whatever creative Rube Goldberg schemes we come up with here, Amtrak will do what it has worked out and we will know what it is when it happens. I think it is safe to say that the Borealis consist will have a single locomotive , a P42 at its front and 5 cars and they will figure out how to handle the consist rotations that works.
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Very true! While eagerness leads to all this speculation now, we'll know in a few weeks exactly what they are doing. And hopefully whatever it that turns out to be is reliable enough that this speculative stuff is quickly forgotten. If we're still going through this stuff a month or two from now it's likely because something isn't working well and they are taking delays.
 
John Bredin said:
As to concerns about Hiawatha (CHI-MKE) passengers displacing Borealis (beyond MKE) passengers or vice versa, WisDOT & IDOT have planned for some time now to expand the Hiawatha to 10 round-trips.

Money was appropriated for projects to increase capacity in Illinois but local NIMBYs torpedoed those projects. My understanding is (1) capacity improvements in Wisconsin (well beyond the reach of the Glenview grumps) will still make it possible, and (2) a conscious decision was made to **not** wait for those projects' completion to begin the second St. Paul service.
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The funny thing about that whole saga is the Glenview siding CP asked IDOT to build for them will be built anyway, now on CPKC’s dime. There’s still supposedly some capacity upgrades that will take place on the Illinois side but IDOT isn’t as open about details compared with their counterparts across the border.
 
Deni said:
While I do prefer riding Superliner equipment given the opportunity, the schedule for the new train is really convenient for going to MSP. I went up for a concert at the First Ave in February and rolling into town at almost 11pm kind of sucks, especially if you need to get to Minneapolis on the light rail. I think if the EB is a little late you risk missing the last light rail run, on top of the fact that even when on time you won't get to a hotel in Minneapolis until about midnight. And I had to go up the night before the show, this new schedule would have allowed me to show up the day of the show and spend one night in MSP instead of two.

And then I wouldn't have had to get up so early to catch the train back the next morning. Could have slept in longer after the late night out.
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While I've taken the EB to St. Paul many times, I've never taken it back to Chicago from there (though once I took it from Seattle and traveled through the Twin Cities, quite late, eastbound) precisely because of the early scheduled departure. On the Borealis schedule, it's now no longer necessary to either fly or take the bus!
 
Over the last few days I've noticed some oddball fares on certain dates in summer where Borealis is really expensive, far more than the Empire Builder. So while watching TV I looked up fares CHI-MSP through summer to see what's going on. Turns out Borealis is nearly always cheaper but there are a few very specific periods when it's not...the two presidential conventions and a four-day period in early August I have not found a reason for:

1715135594748.png
1715135641681.png

Putting a $179 fare on Borealis between CHI and MSP during the conventions seems an absurd level of surge pricing, though during the week of the Chicago convention routes like DTW-CHI and STL-CHI are also triple-ish what is available a week earlier. In the case of CHI-MSP the much-lower fares on the Empire Builder make the Borealis fares especially noteworthy. Not sure about those four dates in earlier August but again it seems to be related to something.

Nevertheless I was glad (relieved?) to see a pattern which showed what was going on. When I stumbled upon those $179 days poking around over the weekend it was kind of alarming,
 

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