Southwest Chief Re-Route?

[henryj]

I would think the track from Lamy to Trinidad would remain in place for future Denver to Albuquerque service someday. But Trinidad to La Junta and east to Newton will just be freight only. Should the coal traffice around Raton and Trinidad come back this could all change.

 

[George Harris]

I would think the track from Lamy to Trinidad would remain in place for future Denver to Albuquerque service someday. But Trinidad to La Junta and east to Newton will just be freight only. Should the coal traffice around Raton and Trinidad come back this could all change.

Don't confuse talk with action. Denver to Albuquerque is talk only.

To get the run time down to something reasonable will take A LOT OF WORK and not just the relatively cheap upgrades in track condition north of Lamy up to Trinidad and on to Pueblo. The alignment does not allow for a run time competitive with driving. An then there is Pueblo to Denver. Again, an alinment not permitting high speed, but an issue requiring major work is capacity improvement. The line is near overwhelmed with coal trains. It manages to function because all are moving at the same general speed. Introduce fast trains, forget it unless you are willing to build a new track full distance.

Saying this to say that any realistic cost analysis will kill thoughts of passenger service between Denver and Albuquerque completely unless and until someone with a large checkbook thinks there is sufficient traffic for an all new passenger line.

 

[henryj]

I guess what I am saying, George, is that no one is going to pull up the rails when Amtrak moves. It will all just sit there like the UP's Tennessee Pass line, growing weeds, until someone decides to do something with it, which of course they will someday. On the joint line north of Pueblo they will just restore the double track, much of which has already been restored. There is abandoned ROW all along the route north of Trinidad. It's just a matter of money and priorities. How much do they want to spend on I25 vs passenger rail.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I would think the track from Lamy to Trinidad would remain in place for future Denver to Albuquerque service someday. But Trinidad to La Junta and east to Newton will just be freight only. Should the coal traffice around Raton and Trinidad come back this could all change.

That line Newton-Trinidad won't just be freight only, it'll get abandoned.

 

[henryj]

I would think the track from Lamy to Trinidad would remain in place for future Denver to Albuquerque service someday. But Trinidad to La Junta and east to Newton will just be freight only. Should the coal traffice around Raton and Trinidad come back this could all change.

That line Newton-Trinidad won't just be freight only, it'll get abandoned.

Actually, if you look at the BNSF detailed map, the most likely abandonment would be between Trinidad and La Junta. Coal trains use the Pueblo to Las Animas line every day. Between Las Animas and Dodge City would be questionable depending on how much they use it. They have an alternate route via an affiliated short line between Dodge City and Springfield they could use or they could just use trackage rights on UP to Stratford or Dalhart. Just depends on how important Colorado traffic is to them from the KC gateway. They of course have their own line between Chicago and Denver. It would also depend of whether coal production from the Trinidad/Raton area resumes and where the market is.

 

[George Harris]

I guess what I am saying, George, is that no one is going to pull up the rails when Amtrak moves. It will all just sit there like the UP's Tennessee Pass line, growing weeds, until someone decides to do something with it, which of course they will someday. On the joint line north of Pueblo they will just restore the double track, much of which has already been restored. There is abandoned ROW all along the route north of Trinidad. It's just a matter of money and priorities. How much do they want to spend on I25 vs passenger rail.

I think you are probably right. Most railroad companies appear to have learned that letting a line set and grow weeds and trees on the thought that they might someday want to use it again is the better choice, unless the tax collector makes letting it set too expensive a proposition.

 

[Gingee]

This isn't anything soon is it?

 

[gswager]

This isn't anything soon is it?

It will most likely be relocated in 2016 if the line is not being rebuilt.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I would think the track from Lamy to Trinidad would remain in place for future Denver to Albuquerque service someday. But Trinidad to La Junta and east to Newton will just be freight only. Should the coal traffice around Raton and Trinidad come back this could all change.

That line Newton-Trinidad won't just be freight only, it'll get abandoned.

Actually, if you look at the BNSF detailed map, the most likely abandonment would be between Trinidad and La Junta. Coal trains use the Pueblo to Las Animas line every day. Between Las Animas and Dodge City would be questionable depending on how much they use it. They have an alternate route via an affiliated short line between Dodge City and Springfield they could use or they could just use trackage rights on UP to Stratford or Dalhart. Just depends on how important Colorado traffic is to them from the KC gateway. They of course have their own line between Chicago and Denver. It would also depend of whether coal production from the Trinidad/Raton area resumes and where the market is.

Why do they want to use that route if it's owned by the UP west of Pueblo? Turning north to Denver seems like a waste and turning south would be better off on the Transcon.

 

[Nathanael]

I guess what I am saying, George, is that no one is going to pull up the rails when Amtrak moves. It will all just sit there like the UP's Tennessee Pass line, growing weeds, until someone decides to do something with it, which of course they will someday. On the joint line north of Pueblo they will just restore the double track, much of which has already been restored. There is abandoned ROW all along the route north of Trinidad. It's just a matter of money and priorities. How much do they want to spend on I25 vs passenger rail.

I think you are probably right. Most railroad companies appear to have learned that letting a line set and grow weeds and trees on the thought that they might someday want to use it again is the better choice, unless the tax collector makes letting it set too expensive a proposition.

The increasing value of scrap, and the resulting scrap thefts, have slowly been changing that. It now frequently makes sense for the metal parts to be lifted; it also makes sense for the ties to be lifted for resale. The ballast certainly isn't going anywhere.

 

[henryj]

Nathanel, who knows. The KCS recently rebuilt the former T&NO 'macaroni' line between Rosenberg and Victoria here in Texas. There was nothing left of it but the dirt embankment and they rebuilt it anyway with welded rail and concrete ties.

 

[Gingee]

Maybe some of the little towns will be glad to see it go?

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Maybe some of the little towns will be glad to see it go?

Why?! It's part of their history, their culture. They must love that train coming through daily.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Maybe some of the little towns will be glad to see it go?

Why?! It's part of their history, their culture. They must love that train coming through daily.

Maybe some of the little towns will be glad to see it go?

Why?! It's part of their history, their culture. They must love that train coming through daily.

and there may not be any other public transportation through some of those towns.

 

[amtkstn]

The towns on the route have had service for over a 100 years.

 

[VentureForth]

OK - here are the stations that will lose their train if things keep going the way they are going (2012 Pax Count in Parenthesis):

Kansas:

Newton (14,131) - Wichita was the primary reason people got on and off here anyway. With Wichita being on the new route, I doubt that there will be furthur need to service Newton. Served by Greyhound.

Hutchinson (5,239) - Served by Greyhound.

Dodge City (5,174) - Served by Greyhound.

Garden CIty (7,887) - Served by Greyhound.

Colorado:

Lamar (1,936) - Served by Greyhound Express.

La Junta (6,566) - Served by Greyhound.

Trinidad (4,770) - Major destination for transgender patients. Served by Greyhound.

New Mexico:

Raton (16,292) - A tremendous loss for the Boy Scouts. Served by Greyhound.

Las Vegas (5,653) - Heritage location that will be a loss.

Lamy (12,589) - Station for access to Santa Fe. Doubt if the 14 people that live in Lamy could care one way or another. The one or two businesses that would have catered to the Amtrak crowd have been long since closed. Santa Fe to be accessible by rail via Railrunner from ABQ.

There is not a constitutional right to spend $20,000,000 per year to service ($100,000,000 for initial upgrades over 10 years, plus $10,000,000 upkeep). Let's raise the price for every ticket going in or out of the aforementioned 10 stations by $250 to cover that cost, and you'll be suprised how much that already anemic demand goes away.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

There is not a constitutional right

There is not?. Since The House holds the purse-strings to spending on the Federal level, one could easily argue that if The House wants to spend money that way, and they can get the Senate and the POTUS to go along, it is their constitutional right.

Then there is the whole highway mindset in this country, where folks feel it is their God given right to drive anywhere, at anytime, and not have to wait in traffic.

 

[NETrainfan]

VentureForth- Thanks for the list.

Has anyone here taken the local train (Railrunner) from ABQ to Santa Fe?

 

[VentureForth]

I really want to. I have been on it from Belen to Bernalillo County and back several times, then I moved to Georgia before the rest of it was built.

There are lots of pictures on Railpictures.net. Not enough, in my humble opinon, but you can get a bit of idea of the median running it does along I-25 and the grade that it climbs.

 

[AlanB]

Has anyone here taken the local train (Railrunner) from ABQ to Santa Fe?

I've done that ride. Rather nice and train arrives right downtown at both ends.

 

[gswager]

Has anyone here taken the local train (Railrunner) from ABQ to Santa Fe?

I did rode on RailRunner. Actually, Santa Fe station is not in the downtown area. It's on the edge but it's an easy walk to either downtown or the capitol, 10 - 20 minutes walk. It has public transportation right in front of station. It's a pretty scenic ride along the Rio Grande River and its bosque, pueblos, and mountain view. Even it rides on I-25 corridor.

 

[me_little_me]

VentureForth- Thanks for the list.
Has anyone here taken the local train (Railrunner) from ABQ to Santa Fe?

I have. Great ride. Great view. Love the cartoon-Roadrunner-like beep-beep.

At Santa Fe, you can walk to downtown (plaza) or take a free shuttle right to it. I wish they had it when I lived in ABQ.

http://s20.postimage.org/p61ykplr1/P1000152.jpg

 

[SubwayNut]

Correction about Greyhound Service:

The main bus route that follows the Southwest Chief through Kanas between Newton, Kansas and La Junta, Colorado isn't actually a Greyhound Bus, but Beeline Express operated by Prestigue Bus Lines (Website) and runs between Wichita and Pueblo (connecting to Greyhound in both those cities, Greyhound also handles ticketing services, hence why the bus stops look like regular Greyhound Stations according to Greyhound's Website), a different Beeline Route runs from Wichita to Salina which I believe is the only bus that stops in Newton.

I've ridden the BeeLine Express after getting off the Southwest Chief from La Junta to Pueblo last June, connecting to Greyhound from there up to Colorado Springs. (Blog Post about the adventure). The bus service and route began in November 2010 in response to massive Greyhound Cut-backs in previous years. It is sponsored and subsidized by the Kansas and Colorado Departments of Transportation and the bus I rode on was purchased using funds from the Recovery Act. The bus had the recovery act logo on the side.

Las Vegas, NM is a driver change (one driver sleeps on a bunk in the back) and rest stop on the Autobuses Americas that are basically the only buses going up and down I-25 from Denver, south to El Paso and into Mexico. It's even listed on the timetables as "DR CHANGE LAS VEGAS, NM"

I took this bus through the night once from Colorado Springs to Albuquerque and the stop was at an odd little gas station that I still remember had tons of liquor on display (standard at a gas station in New Mexico but I think I really noticed because I had gotten used to Colorado where the only place to buy liqour-except 3.2 beer is in a liquor)

Santa Fe, NM lacks any Greyhound service (the only way to get there is on NM Railrunner, which I have ridden and think is great) this isn't really a compliant, Greyhound closed its station in 2009.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I though I was confused about that Greyhound service! Looking at this map, http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup/schedules/pageset.html, there's no Greyhound runs to many of those places. But Prestige Lines works too, I guess.

Autobuses Americanos isn't actual Greyhound either, even though it's got the same owners.

 

[Sleeper]

OK - here are the stations that will lose their train if things keep going the way they are going (2012 Pax Count in Parenthesis):
Kansas:

Newton (14,131) - Wichita was the primary reason people got on and off here anyway. With Wichita being on the new route, I doubt that there will be furthur need to service Newton. Served by Greyhound.

Hutchinson (5,239) - Served by Greyhound.

Dodge City (5,174) - Served by Greyhound.

Garden CIty (7,887) - Served by Greyhound.

Colorado:

Lamar (1,936) - Served by Greyhound Express.

La Junta (6,566) - Served by Greyhound.

Trinidad (4,770) - Major destination for transgender patients. Served by Greyhound.

New Mexico:

Raton (16,292) - A tremendous loss for the Boy Scouts. Served by Greyhound.

Las Vegas (5,653) - Heritage location that will be a loss.

Lamy (12,589) - Station for access to Santa Fe. Doubt if the 14 people that live in Lamy could care one way or another. The one or two businesses that would have catered to the Amtrak crowd have been long since closed. Santa Fe to be accessible by rail via Railrunner from ABQ.

Compare this to possible stations on the southern route:

KANSAS:

Wichita (366,000)

OKLA.:

Alva (4800 and a university)

Woodward (12,300)

TEXAS:

Pampa (17,300)

Amarillo (187,000)

Hereford (14,500)

N. MEX.

Clovis (32,000)

Mountainair (1,100)

And would the Chief reroute go into ABQ and back out, or just stop in Belen and let passengers transfer to the Rail Runner to go to ABQ and Santa Fe?